Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

[ronnie]

I'm posting a quote from another thread to start a new topic: "Sonic-Core & Kickstarter" because I seriously think that the Scope platform can have a stellar future with the right amount of funding. The market is there and keeps growing. Certainly the vision and expertise is there. With some serious focus on a plan to move forward (XITE expansion, Scope 6, maybe some plug-in tweaks, and a couple of packages blowing away all competition right out-of-the-box (a real possibility). Can we put some heads together and tell the Scope story and come up with a plan and some target numbers and timeframes and start a Kickstart campaign? The track record of the platform is compelling and revolutionary and needs no bs. We have believers and enthusiasm and solid continuous results getting closer to two decades. Any one else want to chime in?

Too bad Sonic-Core doesn't have the marketing or R&D budget because the XITE platform could put a serious dent into UAD by blowing away Apollo in value, features and performance even more than it does now. Add MADI to the XITE? Yes. Scope 6? Yes. Truth in marketing? Yes. (Let SoundDesigner, Gary, Dante and Bud write the copy and design the ads!!!!! Viral on YouTube!). All right! You want more than 4 DSPs to run more plug-ins from UAD, buy more Apollo's. Or you could live happily ever after even with a humble XITE-1D MkII. (In Kingly Black, natch!)

Scope has a great story, it's about time it makes some serious history and moolah. Am I dreaming or how do we make this happen?

I mean back in the 90's when $2000 PC's were little more than emulating $3 calculators Scope was out there competing with 6 and 7 figure professional recording and broadcast operations with synths and samplers and users copping major awards like Oscars and Grammies.

When compared to Scope, everything else is "Back to the Future" but Scope is still "Future Proof".

[yayajohn]

I personally love your enthusiasm.
It's true that some people still have never heard about this great platform but there are many more that have. And for this imperfection and that anomaly and the little glitches here and there they have then chosen to spend their money elsewhere on the mainstream products thus sounding like everyone else in the universe. They are slaves and puppets of the big companies with their glamorous advertising and they probably lack the imagination and creativity to use this great platform correctly anyway.
To me it seems all we need right now is revenue for Sonic Core to keep going. That means us loyalists buying hardware and software that goes directly to Holger and company.
When Scope 6 comes out i'm sure it will speak for itself. That will be the day to blow the trumpets and signal the charge!

There are probably 4 or 5 others writing a lengthy detailed response to this post as we speak

Just my very humble opinion of course.

Dan

[kensuguro]

Let me inject some C level perspective here. I think the difficulty is sustainability of revenue. The structural issue I see with scope is that everything about it is buy once. It's a win for the consumer. You buy the chips once. (maybe, maybe add more later) You buy plugins once. They're the best, bam. Done. Very rarely these days, you see a new plugin. Buy that, and it kills all competitors. Bam, finish. There's a clear point at which you can just stop buying. You may love and rave about what you have for years and years. But still, as an income source, that's quite limiting. The theme for me here, is that there can be too much of a good thing, especially if they're all permanent. (and permanently the best)

The barrier to entry is also comparatively quite high, both for consumer and devs. (so friction for ecosystem growth) That combined with limited revenue per user doesn't spell "scalability". (though high initial cost boosts per user life time value) Sure, a sound argument can be had in support of "high quality inherently is not scalable"... but tell that to potential investors and you may never see them again.

Anyway, don't want to put a damper on creative thought. Just want to point out some issues that need solid answers. Revenue isn't always just about reach, it's about growth, sustainability, and scalability over the long term. You don't want to sell stuff that constantly breaks or decays (built in obsolescence), but you also don't want a stagnant inventory. A healthy, self refreshing ecosystem can do wonders (ie app store / native land) but I believe there can be more creative ways for that exist rather than models we've seen thus far. (not everything needs its own damn app store. Apple already did it and owns it, move on.)

Last point.. as a former consumer, I did take comfort in the fact that I didn't need to be scouring plugins for the latest and hottest. It was comforting to know that for most of my scope stuff, I just had exactly what I wanted, and nothing could touch it. That permanence was powerful. And you can see it's at odds with an ever flowing stream of new things to buy. That's what native land is for... so whatever the solution is, I think should to take a different form. It's a tough one.

[dante]

Happy to help out with ads. First things first though, what does Holger think ?

I imagine investors would want some sort of timeline bound result, as AFAIK, Holger doesn't have any at the moment. So what would he be committing to ?

I agre with Ken regards sustainability - so Im seeing here a need for SC streamline their sales model. This could be done with the development of a Windows licensing center. So - scenario. You go to the SC shop :

1) New Scope 6 devices would be on sale at prices low enough to compete with Native equivalents. I think dNa are getting close to the mark here, but may need to be even cheaper still. The market is flooded.

2) You see a device you like and you can select either 'Try' or 'Buy'. Either way, the licensing center communicates with S|C shop any HW serial nos required, and download and full installation takes place with a progress bar in the GUI.

3) If its a 'Buy' scenario the payment screens come up before download, and once downloaded you can run the device forever including offline.

4) In a 'Try' scenario, you have one month free use of the device but need to be online when you fire up Scope so Scope can check the device purchase data against the current date. If the 'Try' period has expired, Scope project has a placeholder substituted in place of the device until user buys it.

With a streamlined sales model, cheaper plugins, we're at least part way to Kens sustainability. That in itself could be the KickStarter funded part. Its focused and deliverable, and doesn't need Scope 6 to be finished to be implemented. Support would then be freed from keygen duties to attend to more important matters.

Another idea : I think Julian bit off more than he could chew undertaking a full blown sequencer. But what about - a - wait for it - Scope MIXBUS (aka ScopeMIX).

This would be a Native GUI like Harrison Mixbus but either the channel strips would be DSP powered, or the whole mix DSP powered. This could be a collaboration between Julian and Harrison I suppose. And possibly include embedded dNa and DAS devices in the channel strips and master bus. Either with base product, or sold as extras in the shop - particularly suited to this mixer - another sustainable income stream. Open to new developers, managed thru the licensing center - installed straight into your mixer !

A 'ScopeMix Channel Strip Section Developers Kit' could be created for devs - imagine - want your EQ section to be a Neve emu but happy to leave your dynamics SSL style ? Buy the plug and download in minute, channel strips morphed into the Neve SSL hybrid !

Scope Mixbus would mix stems only - no midi - same as Harrison Mixbus. You've cut development time drastically over developing an entire DAW but you haven't burnt the bridge of developing a full DAW if $$$ come in.

This one is also good from the point of view it could possibly be built in such a manner as to run on Scope 5, but be Scope 6 ready as well. Therefore - again - not dependant on Holgers timelines, and possibly contributing further to Scope 6 R&D before the fact.

[tlaskows]

How much do I have to pledge

-Tom

[jhulk]

i use wusikstation and i am an active subscriber

this is a monthly payment to help develop ment but also and advances in development or new software products are given free

this allows the coders to carry on creating more software

then for those who dont want to subscribe they can just buy the plugs at full value

if subscribing to a yearly or monthly fee helps to pay for extra coders to get advances done because of the time limit im up for it

but also the other problem is some people cant afford the xite or xite1d so go a second hand card route if they created a low end price for a 6 dsp card for low end market like the uad cards where people can get on the ladder and can add extra cards as they go along like uad do

you can pick up a uad first generation card for £50 with plugs

the second generations starting around £200

not every one buys the appollo but buy the uad2 cards

so if there was a low price point start dsp card that could compete with the uad2 cards i think this would be a good starting point
the uad2 you get hardly any plugs at all and there rev1 types scope 5 comes with lots of plugs and synths and modular appollo only dream of or uad2 cards

but same again the scope system is still rocking many other dsp platforms have died tc for instance or chameleon korg oasis

[tlaskows]

The cost is a major turn off for a lot of people I think. Xite-1 would be probably more than 5000$ CAD to get it here. I heard that 2nd hand UAD-2 Octo cards go for about $1100. I just paid 550$ CAD for a Quad recently, picked up in person.

So if they could come up with a cheaper PCI-e card with a few DSPs and some I/O, I think a lot of people (including me of course) would buy that. It's a pain to have three huge PCI cards in the system.

I already have a mic pre and an Ultra...

-Tom

[Nestor]

I agree with most of what you say brothers, it makes sense, but don’t forget that the Scope Platform has reached an interesting number of people already, we are a nice community.

Now, if everything you say is true, why are we here and own Scope systems ourselves and not other products? Well… we are a particular bunch of people, with a perception of things that are not “the mass perception”. I am tempted to get into the psychological field, but I don’t have the time to do so, and it would require much investigation and thinking, even if it would be fun for me. What I can say for sure, is that we are a bunch of differentiated people that truly appreciates quality.

There are many cards in the market that are extremely popular; nevertheless, I would not buy them. But Scope is exactly what I want, it suits me at perfection. Well, here we are, we are many thinking the same way, but not that much…

We want to get bigger, yes, but if we change much the spirit in which this business is today ruled, who knows… we could even lose it.

As we can see, the main reason Scope systems are ignored by the masses, is IGNORANCE, not money… Money would be the second most important reason. At least, this is the way I understand and see it. Because if I want something really bad, I will get it no matter how, I will, I will move circumstances, will save money and will get it even in the middle of turmoil.

So, we already are a specific niche in the market not addressed by other companies, so before thinking in growing the business bigger and moving into new strategies, we should think about keeping what we already have. I personally like the (sometimes) ingenuity in which this model has been managed, this gives me trust and confidence. I have been a natural sponsor of the platform since its beginnings. These are my two cents.

[tlaskows]

Maybe you're right, Nestor. Maybe there's a reason only select ppl use Scope. I know I love it. But money is an issue for me. Haven't worked in a while :/ But sure, there are some big ppl out there who have the ke$h...

-Tom

[dante]

People select Scope for the things it can do that no other platform does. Or other platforms do in bits and pieces.

I believe a ScopeMIX Console project has a lot of merit and discussion points. Bringing together elements of known successful products, but combining them in a tight and unique way greater than the sum of the parts:

1) The Try-Buy licensing center / auto install approach from Propellerhead (no key waits = faster sales).
2) Name brand emulations a'la UAD
3) Console only approach of Harrison Mixbus with after sales of alternative channel strips/components.

UAD have a DSP mixer - but it's a fixed monitor for their hardware IO - fixed in channels, latency and not really designed for DAW work - eg mixing Stems.

Harrison has the concept but the plugs are not DSP powered and not name brand emu's.

Making large mixes has already been done on Scope. I believe larger still could be achieved if the cross farm latencies could be addressed either at a hardware level or a software level on the XITE-1. On the XITE-1D alone I can run 32 instances of the DAS C350L as inserts to the DAS ScopeRise mixer. But ergonomically and for workflow pop-up strips arent the best - I want channel EQ/Compress controls visible a'la Reason SLL and Harrison mixbus - horizontally and vertically scrollable.

I imagine many mix studios would accept incoming projects as all audio stems (midi pre rendered) and its actually a good way to work. Rendering midi to stems means you don't always need those particular synth VST hanging around forever for future remixes. It also means processing power is not consumed by synths/romplers. And no costly CuBloat.

Initially playback only, functionality could be extended to recording based on sales/demand. Everyone says VDAT recordings sound better than native. So why not extend that pristine sound ?

[ronnie]

These are great responses and think there are a lot of ideas coming out that lend support for moving forward. The culture of the Scope community is an asset that definitely can be emphasized. Introducing a more affordable entry level box with, say 6-8 DSPs (even a PCI-e card a la Luna II) priced around $1000 give or take 20% based on options is a possibility. Many of the issues talked about need to be addressed and are not simple. We need to have someone sketch out the issues and potentials into a goal oriented project document with attached dollar signs. This would include costs for researching the issues, paying developers, manufacturing, distribution and marketing costs and some projections of revenue over say, 2 to 5 out years. A really nice free collaborative project management tool is Trello (https://trello.com/). Using something like Trello would be really valuable as we could have roles and responsibilities assigned with timeframes and project tasks, goals, etc., which would be very organic and dynamic.

So far I think any potential negatives can actually work for us. Niche, culture, snobs, etc., I think the commercialized music production world is ready for the whole Scope gestalt und weltanschauung.

If we can have some detail in an appealing plan (evolving from this discussion), we can turn it into a compelling and fairly comprehensive business plan. 44% of KickStarter art/technology projects get funded and 100% ownership is never given up.

We have a lot of "clay" and wizardry to work with here....

[astroman]

I subscribe to Ken's description for 100% - exactly what I experienced in Apple sale in the late 80s
best machines, best software, most reliable - but the worst sales rate you can imagine
similiar to music apps in the iTunes store: started like an explosion and now decays ( few exceptions)

a basic problem with all quality stuff (as Ken pointed out already)

and the biggest Scope mistake ever has been repeated in the starting post:
positioning the platform against something (F. Hund adressed ProTools that way)
that's BS - think colaborative instead...

cheers, Tom

[ronnie]

I don't disagree. In any case, at the end of the day, there is a marketplace and there will be competition. The position Scope is in is the emphasis on the compelling key differentiators: Comprehensive set of tools in DSP, synth and sampler besides effects and mixers. A broader choice of all of the above which can be tailored to different package levels for scalability. Further development of Scope Sync devices and of course the grand debut of Scope 6 is also key for "scalability" and sustainability. Good fundamental design and engineering will have sustainability by solid performance and reputation and will not always be in crisis mode with patches and versions du jour to generate revenue. By designing products with an upward program and feature path from entry level to super pro and marketing as such, even without targeting any specific competition, just a well thought out and engineered product line with future growth, upgrade and expandability paths that need not depend on decimal version upgrade revenue. The SDK will probably then have to have a price of admission and perhaps some restrictions on licensing as third-parties with a certification process and royalty contract. Cross platform compatibility with Windows, Mac and Linux should be a part of it and a tight XTC (VST) integration could be sold as a separate add-on product as well as included in more premium versions of the platform.

Even the hardware can be tiered like the Pro, Project and Home model where the XITE XE has a swappable and expandable bus where DSP boards could be added as well as I/O options. It also has MIDI and CV control which is pretty unique.

I hear the arguments but I don't see any real hurdles if this is approached in a systematic business framework.

I don't see any brick walls here other than in a plug-in.

There's a lot to address for sure but isn't that what this community is good at, creative solutions that deliver under pressure. This platform still thrives even getting on two decades without ever losing state of the art status. I don't think that's going to change especially with the right re$ources and vision behind it.

[petal]

I've been thinking along the same lines concerning kickstarter as a solution for progress and bugfixing on the Scope-platform. I think it could work for new high end/special plugins, but maybe a thing to consider is what kind of mixed signals it would send to potential buyers if SonicCore actually went and did kickstarter campaigns for say Scope 6 or "Bugfixes". And especially the bad publicity it would produce if the kickstarter campaign fail due to lack of interest.

[astroman]

excellent points...
and let's not forget that Holger and Juergen are long enough in this business to be aware of the obvious facts
the existence of Sonic Core itself is a proof of their competence

there's a lot of stuff behind the virtual curtain that makes this product a very demanding project to support

cheers, Tom

[dante]

That's why I think any kickstarter project should have the potential to run semi autonomously from SC and Scope 6. It needs to be something that can enhance sales without compromising Holgers independence. ParseQ was that project, but what is now needed is something more focused and less ambitious in its place.

An updated shop/distribution portal, and a mixbus project both fit the bill. They could both help Scope 6 launch if successful, but don't set back Scope 6 itself if they fail.

[stonberg]

I've had my Pulsar cards for 16 years now (still better than anything else out there imho), but over that time the way that I use them has changed quite a bit.

Initially, I used scope devices, scope mixers, scope fx etc. The DAW was there to send MIDI data to scope, and record/play audio.

I then moved to a more hybrid approach; using both scope and VST devices, mixing in both scope and DAW.

As DAW & VST software and the CPU hardware it runs on developed, I moved more and more towards using the DAW to provide the instruments, fx, mixing etc. so the scope hardware became somewhat relegated to being an interface card. I do still route some instruments into the DAW via ASIO (e.g. Minimax), but I no longer try to split the production process (e.g. mixing and effects) between the two worlds.

Last year I decided to 'go fully 64-bit' with my system, which meant that I needed to upgrade my version of Scope to v5 which has the 64-bit driver support.

The software has not changed for 16 years, it has stood still compared to VST plugin development over that time.

Whilst it was true back then that having the DSP processing power on the cards meant being able to do things beyond the capabilities of CPUs of the time, modern Intel processors have so much processing grunt that this is no longer the case.

It's a niche system, with (compared to mainstream music software development), very limited development resource. What might help open it up would be a means to run VST (and perhaps other plugin technology) directly on the Scope system's DSPs. Kind of like XTC mode, but in reverse.

[ronnie]

Maybe I'm being too naïve, optimistic, etc. Maybe the question should be what is the future of Scope and what would it need to get there and beyond? Can that be articulated into a business plan that makes sense?

[kensuguro]

I see what Dante's getting at. So it's not so much reinventing the scope product itself. Obviously we don't have the means and access to do that, that is for SC to do. So basically you are positioning the kickstarter to be a marketing effort, to promote and bring awareness to the product and brand. That I can understand. For me, the interesting thing is that a tight nit loyal community (which marketing strives to produce) already exists. So the seed is there, so at this point it would be more about reach and growing the pie.

For a marketing effort, it may help to line up some potential PR firms, and the kickstarter project would fund that. To me, it sounds much more viable (confidence in efficacy) than funding a group of enthusiasts to do the actual work involved in marketing. (all the way from strategy down to hands on execution level) But of course, that's my view of it as "something that replaces the marketing department in a traditional product to market structure", which is all too common. To me, that doesn't map well to a kickstarter because basically it's just being used as a budget pool for what otherwise would have been handled by SC. I understand kickstarter as more of a "let's bring this vision / product to life" sort of thing. (more entrepreneurial)

The spin on this is going to be important. Kickstarter users (backers) can be viewed of as the general public.. and realistically, why should the general public care that a particular DSP product gets more or less share in the musical appliance industry? Why would anyone care with what equipment audio material is made? A story that encompasses these questions will be important in generating public interest, and interest from backers. Of course, we as discerning musicians want better quality and better equipment, but that message does not translate to the interests of the general public. Which begs the question, is there any reason why the general public should be sharing the burden of bringing a specific product to market that offers them very little tangible value? In spinning up a story, I think we internally need to have valid answers.

[jksuperstar]

At this point, I think S|C could benefit from a kickstarter that advertised SCOPE as an entirely new product. Tie it with SCOPE6 and maybe a USB-C box that has 4 DSPs in it that is affordable. SCOPE, to survive longer term, really needs to hit a larger market...the number of current users that infuse money into the company to continue work seems to be unsustainable. At least from a viewpoint of internet chatter, forum user count, and use in projects. Maybe there are far more people that use the products without any discussion on the internets, and I'm just off base.

Other people that leverage Kickstarter, as a company and without negative impacts, is Keith McMillan. Every product he makes starts with a kickstarter campaign. And he not only gets the money to cover initial production startup, he also gets word of mouth and other internet marketing just because people get talking. That's why I think something like this could very well be used as a marketing tool, to expose a lot more people to SCOPE than currently have even heard of it.

just one thought...