Online Session Musicians - any good ?

[dante]

Has anyone tried out any of the online session musician (in particular vocals) services for example :

http://www.sessionsingeronline.com/
http://www.e-session-singer.com/

In the example of vocals, from what I gather you can send them two recordings of your song (one with guide vocal(s) and one instrumental only mix) plus lyric sheet and they send you a WAV file back which you sync into your DAW and remix.

Sounds great in principal if you want a more 'pro' sounding vocal, anyone used these services and how successfully ?

[kensuguro]

I think it's a cool idea in theory.. For me it'd be very hard to direct the performance. I've done a remote recording once, but I had a friend direct the recording on site. (I trust his arrangement and ability to work with vocalists) Even for that, we spent 5 hours rehearsing on a separate day while I was on video chat the whole time. That was kind of special though, because the vocalist was singing outside of her usual style so required extra prep and direction. (traditional Japanese folk singer singing pop) On all other occasions I'm there at the recording, making sure all takes achieve what they're supposed to.

For these, I'd imagine a lot of it is going to be up to the vocalist... even if you can send direction via IM, skype.. I think it'd be very hard to stop the vocalist from going off on a tangent if it happens.. which happens a lot. Particularly difficult with chorus work if you're going for a particular texture, and the vocalist doesn't understand how to sing each of the parts to achieve the final tone. (which note should stand out, etc) And it's very hard to communicate those things since even with full notation, these are nuances that don't have standardized symbols. But these guys do this for a living, so maybe it's different. Any thing's worth trying once right!

Seems like session singer online is the more versatile company.. Would be great for demos.. tho, again seems most of the direction would be up to them.

[dante]

Well yeah, they'd have total control, beyond whats on the guide vocal. But if they follow the guide vocal and have a good tone, the outcome 'should' be OK. In days where I had studio in a non-domestic situation and could bring any session singer in at any time, it was not uncommon for someone pro to come in and do a great lead vocal in 1 or 2 takes provided the guide track was good and simple.

I mean, I'd try it on say a straight forward electropop track (Millennium Girl) rather than a heart felt ballad where theres loads of vibrato / interval gliding, glissando or other gymnastics open to interpretation. And given in Cubase I have the ability to edit pitch, time and volume anything that's slightly out, I'm thinking it should work, as long as I've done my research on the service properly and I like the guy's tone in the first place from his online demo's. Also, electropop seems to me more of a genre where its more up to the producer to 'bend' the track around supplied material/samples etc.

Think I'll do it should be an interesting experiment also to put the end result up here & see what people think.

[Mr Arkadin]

I've used session musicians in the flesh and even then they don't follow the words, instructions etc. - they want to add their own thing. These online singers I imagine would follow the words and instructions to the letter as they want your money, so might be better in that respect. I remember one song where the lyric had a 'the" (something or other) and the singer kept singing "a" (something or other) and in the context completely changed the meaning of the phrase. We ended up editing the word "the" from another part of the song to cheat it as he would just never do it right.

The problem I always find is that the singing bit is often the most personal part of the music as it's very distinctive for each singer. How often have you seen a band's popularity fade when the singer leave: Black Sabbath, The Doors, The Stranglers, Marillion etc. Only when the original singer turns up is it considered 'the real band' again. Yet drummers, guitarists etc. can come and go and no-one bats an eyelid.

What I am trying to say is that I'd rather have a performance by someone like Gary Numan who can't sing for toffee but has his own style, that fits his lyrics and phrasing (and music of course) done with conviction, than a note-perfect session singer who might turn in a blando performance. So if you can, do it yourself, even if it's not perfect.

However I say this with the caveat that I can't sing a note (yet I used to be in the school choir pre-balls dropping) and would look for someone to sing for me - but I really wish I could do my own stuff as I always hate what singers do to my ideas.

[skwawks]

you dont have to use a service as such , you can do it with any singer you can find if they are reasonably competent with a daw . I did a whole album (instrumental)using a file share service like Box.net . It didn't cost anything at all . If you dont like what the singer does ..discuss and redo until such time as you've got it or you decide you're never going to get it . The only problem is sync but if you include a count and then zoom to the max to line it up it seems to work fine . I prefer the idea of an online band to online session players though , it's like bacon and eggs ...the chicken has an interest but the pig is commited

[kensuguro]

I've used session musicians in the flesh and even then they don't follow the words, instructions etc. - they want to add their own thing. These online singers I imagine would follow the words and instructions to the letter as they want your money, so might be better in that respect. I remember one song where the lyric had a 'the" (something or other) and the singer kept singing "a" (something or other) and in the context completely changed the meaning of the phrase. We ended up editing the word "the" from another part of the song to cheat it as he would just never do it right.

LOL, so true. For a singer, lyrics seem to be this while internal world of.. subconscious moving of lips, and many, including great ones I've had the pleasure of working with, cannot control it. It's even true for melody phrases as well. If they body urges to sing it a certain way, then it's extremely difficult to change. It's not so bad with leads, but with intricate chorus work, it becomes a huge problem since I usually pack 4 chorus parts in there. So that's 5 including the lead, and it's about a packed as you can get without octave unisons or parts bumping into each other. I've had to use my chorus recording (which I provided, along with notation) for the deliverable on several occasions.

But music school people definitely have less issues like this, it's usually self taught (and very good) singers who have a hard time controlling their voice. Many sound very good, and I've paid good money (in a pinch) but it's never "do it by the recipe". I've come to expect it, and have learned to work around these hickups, so that's why on the spot direction is super important for me. I've had to change melodies, change entire chorus arrangements on the spot... etc. It's also not just a purely technical thing either. Sometimes things change just because a singer sounds better in a certain range, or can only "push it" in a certain range. It's definitely a juggling act, which I really like btw. It's a headache when you're in a crunch and you gotta get out of the studio in an hour, but I'm always up for a challenge.

[dante]

This is interesting. I got a reply back from sessionsingersonline, wanting to know :

"Could you tell me what the useage is for the song ? If you can do that, we can come back to you with a much more accurate quote."

It will be interesting to see how 'usage' will effect the cost of the session (??). (I did request 48khz / 24 bit WAV).

UPDATE:

Well, thier price is £380 ($590 AUS) - so that rules that out. The other mob were like $150, much more reasonable (for my hobbyist level ).

[kensuguro]

ya, kind of makes sense. For what sessionsingeronline does, I'd understand it as more like "rent a studio, engineer, and singer for X hours package".. they probably own the studio, so perhaps it's just labor, but because it seems like they do all the recording work including direction, it's going to involve more people, pumping up your price.

But either way, it's good you moved on this. at least now you know, and now we all know. thanks for sharing. I'd also be curious to follow how you proceed from here.

[dante]

Well the dude from e-session-singer (David Steele) mainly had rock songs on his site, his demos ranging from metal, hard rock and ballads so electropop shouldn't be an issue. He said the track dictates the style and he just sings to that anyway.

Sounds straight forward, no nonsense to me. Anyway he's going away for a week so by the time he gets back I'll have done a backing mix, lyric sheet etc, then we should be underway !

Will keep ya'll posted. This is interesting.

[dante]

Well, here it is, updated Millenium Girl with lead vocal by David Steele from http://www.e-session-singer.com/

http://soundcloud.com/hitfoundry/millen ... vid-steele The mix needs more work, but gives an idea.

And the original for comparison:

http://soundcloud.com/hitfoundry/millenium-girl

[garyb]

your version is better.

[kensuguro]

interesting. I guess the track is kind of misaligned but anyway.. Ya, steady vocal performance, mimics the original pretty effectively I think. Tho for me, I think the tone of your voice fits better stylistically.

But either way, you went through the whole process and that's what counts.. Any comments about the whole workflow? Parts you had problems with, parts that worked really well.. would you do it again?

[dante]

The main problem is timing, so Im going to work more on that on the new vocal. And it wasnt just a case of lining up his entire vocal file with the track, but aligning parts of it differently.

I think because when I sung it I was concious of having accents of words coincide with the beat, being a dance track.

With a ballad or even a rock track I think its OK for a vocalist to stray expressively a bit from the beat, but on electropop I tend to think of a vocal being strict on the beat.

If I were to hire him again, it would be on a rock track, as this seems to be his forte judging from the samples on his website.

Theres no doubt with more work I can improve whats there but Im guessing with him on a Rock track I would have to do a lot less post production as it would fit more naturally.

So the lesson here is to be genre concious especailly in an online session scenario.

[kensuguro]

Oh.. hmm, I thought the entire vocal track was nudged/slipped forward (early).

[dante]

I tried using Cubase offset for the entire track at first but everytime most of it lined up there were parts that didnt, and these seemed to be styalistic ( how I wanted to hear it) rather than to do with the process. But I will go back to his original what he sent me and start again just in case you're right.

I'll re-post sometime once I've got it to how I want it, plus the chorus harmony working better.

[kensuguro]

you can also melodyne it and align.. seems painstaking, but actually pretty quick. I've done it for songs with 8 part choruses and such, and have done it in a few hours, including pitch correction. I remember it very well, because I did once, crashed, and had to redo it! lol

[dante]

No melodyne here, only Cubase 5 with Variaudio. Thats a bummer when you loose hours of work due to crash

Here it is remixed, improved I think.

http://soundcloud.com/hitfoundry/millen ... vid-steele

Added chorus harmony using Variaudio and removed the 'Neptune' electro effect coming from Reason.

There are still phrasings that to me that aren't tight, that would be fixed in a proper studio environment.

That said I think the results are reasonable for the price and remoteness, but still basically demo standard.

I would try it again but on a different genre more suiting the artist.

[garyb]

that's better. i like the chorus on this one much better, but i still prefer your vocal otherwise.
this is the best overall mix, by a long shot. good job with the arrangement.

[dante]

Thanks. Appreciate the +ve feedback.

Since the jury is still out in an overall sense re online session vocalists, I will try this again another time on a Rock track. Maybe in the new year.

[garyb]

i don't know that the jury is out...

you assume that there's something wrong with your vocal. you can sing, maybe you can't sing everything, but who can?

the online guy can sing. he did a reasonably good job, especially considering that he was just given unfamiliar material. he did what he promised and fulfilled his contract. i'd say that was positive. as the producer of the trackm you have to use what you think is best, or get someone else, so if you mean the jury of one, i got you. otherwise, i'd say he get's a thumb's up. you can't expect too much from a stranger that you do no rehearsal or preproduction with.

if you are sending him more material, you must be pleased. or....

maybe you have extra money. in that case send some my way....