Question for the real gurus : termination of freq under 30 h

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Wed May 19, 2004 12:31 pm

Hi there a question for some of you, especially if you are not a fan of bassy mixes (i was, but i'm less and less everyday, everyone change

.

What do you use to remove frequencies below 30hz on a master setup ?

Do you simply take care of eq on every indicidual channels, or is there a device that does it once for all at the end of the mix ?

Here i often remove F < 180/200 hz on most channels but i still get hi volumes on basses, and anyway i have a signal below 30hz.

Recently I have received the LP of a good friend scope user (he will recognize himself) and on most tracks, freq below 30hz simply do not exist, and the result is very fine to me.

You can imagine that I have made plugins which totally anihilate those infra basses, but i am not yet satified of the results and I am not sure of the opportunity of such things (because it remove too much energy on the whole spectrum, even though only freq between 0 and 31 hz get totally removed (-186dB@30hz

), and a bit less up to 62hz (3 dB on that range approx), but that's it. I think the loss of energy is normal.

Anyone can enlight me on such techniques to remove anything below 30hz?

thanks in advance.

And if you say "hey man, those frequencies are necessary" , well thank you for the advice, i know what you are referring to, but for the moment i'm just looking for answer to the precise question

thanks a lot bis....

[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2004-05-31 21:32 ]

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Wed May 19, 2004 1:04 pm

I use STW's VintageEQ-lowcut. It's a 36 dB/octave lowcut filter, with an operating range of 0-500Hz. It has a slight amplification just above cutoff freq.

valis · Post by **valis** » Thu May 20, 2004 1:48 am

I would recommend doing it 'in the mix' so to speak as you will want to understand what you're cutting (where) and why you're cutting. I will generally cut low end off just about everything that has low end energy, as extreme low end isn't audible on most systems (even a lot of club systems) and it eats headroom like mad in a mix. I write drum'n'bass & downtempo (and some ambient) right now, my current technique(s) follow:

Anything that I don't want in the 'bass' regions at all I cut 150-300hz (depending on what it is and where i want it to sit, sometimes even up to 500-800hz if its to be layered really high). I typically use very shallow cutoffs for this (6db/octave and higher cutoffs, or .75 in waves Req's etc.) and almost never use anything higher than 12db/octave (or 1.0 in Waves) to avoid getting nasty ringing artifacts around the cutoff point (will make things muddier if replicated over many tracks).

Kicks generally get a nice soft rolloff starting 40-50hz, snares a bit higher at 50-80hz (sometimes even higher depending on the tune.

When I construct my basses I build them out of several different 'sounds' or I bounce the synth patch(es) that I like and toss them into the sampler, then filter out bass & midrange separately. I will usually cut off everything below 60hz-120hz (depending on the sound itself) and readd the extreme low end with a simple sin wav sub.

Alternatively you could just wire the synth into a nice mod/flexor filterbank and do the 'bass' & 'midbass' filtering there, lop off the low end with a highpass filter from the 'bass' patch and toss 'dubsub' underneath. I should mention that I prefer everything in my low end to be sample accurate (especially under 100hz) and in-phase so unless you're triggering everything with the same midi notes/chan (meaning all devices are triggered simultaniously) I recommend getting your sounds selected and at least tracking them out in your sequencer if not sampling them.

Of course some may prefer the 'looser' low end that you get when things naturally phase.

As a final thought my signal chains can be as simple as a single track output from Logic or SFP directly into my main mixer (outboard analog) or as complex as something that gets routed from withing Logic to SFP (via adat on my RME) then layered with other sounds in SFP and sent out to my main mixer along with sounds directly from Logic, etc etc. This means that I have to think about where to cut things & why--to get things layered properly, or cut the whole 'chain' at the end, or do it before compressors at various points in the chain....etc.

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:53 am

interesting reading. thanks.
Myself I do it the same way, lowcut as first effect (in vst chain in general) and very often there are 2-3 eqs per bass channels (bass, kicks mainly) with bass peaks between 60 and 100 in general. For snare I also mix them with a peak in the mid-bass freq to make it more powerful (and a peak somewhere in the high to make it cut a bit in the mix).
May be I should take the habit to put a filter before the asio/wave dest so sounds get recorded already filtered.

anyone else willing to share techniques ? I'm sure it will benefit many people (who didn't know, never tried etc....).

[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2004-05-20 04:56 ]

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Thu May 20, 2004 4:58 am

How about using a crossover when you bounce to audio?

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Thu May 20, 2004 6:02 am

mm, what do you mean exactly ? to be able to set the lowcut point (like a hipass) ?

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Thu May 20, 2004 7:18 am

That's exactly what I mean. To me it would be better than a high-pass though, because the sound would not be coloured by the filter's "personality".

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Thu May 20, 2004 7:46 am

Most adequate filter in a cross-over is phase linear, so the cross-over filter serve the purpose... You usually do not want to fuzz with phase on your master mix.

That's why there's different types of EQ. Some more musical filters cause phase shifting, while more scientific tools can be used for filtering at the mastering stage or per channel, as Valis describes.
For example in Waves, the LinEQ's are scientific, Renaissance EQ's are more musical/vintage. In Flexor, the Legend series is more 'vintage', while Multistage filters are more scientific.
LP/HP Multistage could be used in a mastering effect, when no resonance applied.

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Thu May 20, 2004 8:00 am

( and echo filters are strictly musical

(or "artistic").

Nice idea to use a crossover. I will have a look at the wave and adern plugs too.

[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2004-05-20 10:02 ]

arela · Post by **arela** » Thu May 20, 2004 6:31 pm

Interesting..
Some of my stuff realy blow the speakers on my hifi - so i had to remove some low-end. Usually with EQ, but now you really have given me something to tryout.

ChrisWerner · Post by **ChrisWerner** » Fri May 21, 2004 1:17 am

A thought captured me while I read that topic.
My music uses many pads mostly, perhaps a kind of multi instrument. So I often have the same problem, that too much (pressure) is lost in the low frequences and when you start to master and finalize your track, you boost the low frequences to an insane level, of course.

So, mostly I use a simple EQ like the Cubase EQ to simply low cut the low frequences dirctly on the single tracks(instruments).
In my mastering chain I always use an additional parametric EQ too. For the final EQing, I prefer the Waves EQs like Q10.

But on to my idea. If you have access to the plug In MaxxBass, it is possible to level or mix the bass frequences between the orginal bass and the signals that are produces by MaxxBass or you can simply mute them.
You can fix a frequence, build a "curve" above it, choose the response, ratio, decay level and you can choose different filter types.
Maybe this is another interesting way to get control over your low frequences. Also you should try MaxxBass to enrich your BassDrum sound or other Bass sounds, sequences etc.

Just an idea.

_________________
Music starts where any language ends

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2004-05-21 02:32 ]

Plato · Post by **Plato** » Fri May 21, 2004 12:29 pm

The issue of bass is such a complex thing, and I've spent years trying to work it all out.....I find my ears very quickly get used to whatever level bass frequencies are at, (meaning it's a difficult thing to judge....you can spend hours listening to a mix which is over-bassy, thinking it's OK. Invariably turning the low-end down feels wrong at this point, but live with it for a couple of minutes and you suddenly wonder how on earth you got away with having the bass so loud before.)
As a general rule I find exercising more caution than my gut tells me is good practice, and overall clarity in a mix is infinitely preferable to gut-wrenching low-end......a good mix where you can hear everything gives the impression of nice bass anyway, even without it being excessively loud......how this is achieved is the Holy Grail of mixing of course.....
I tend to use Vintage EQ quite a lot to cut out those subs, on individual instruments, and on whole mixes.....they have a knack of accumulating, even if you're quite careful, and it's surprising how high you can take that low-shelf before you lose the 'important' bass frequencies.
I suppose it's all a matter of balancing the 'actual' bass with the 'perceived'- what the ear is tricked into believing because of extra harmonics & distortion.
At the end of the day, it's a very subjective thing, but a fascinating subject....
Sorry for not adding anything too constructive in terms of technique, but I hope I've opened up the arena for more debate.....
keeping my eye on this!

Post by **hubird** » Fri May 21, 2004 8:04 pm

on the contrary Plato, good observations, I can second every word

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-05-21 21:05 ]

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Sat May 22, 2004 5:41 am

same as hubird. The Holy Grail indeed. I think lighter mixes can last longer in time. I mean over the weeks, monthes, years.... may be it helps the tracks go more easily through fashions, don't know (i think of modern hifi system with the unavoidable maga-sub-bass-woffer etc etc)...

[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2004-05-22 06:47 ]

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat May 22, 2004 8:55 am

Something that I struggle with (especially in Dnb) is getting the bass to not just groove and have the right freq content, but have a proper balance of dynamics for both loudness and 'breath' so that it impresses you with its presence but isn't overwhelming.

[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2004-05-22 09:55 ]

AndreD · Post by **AndreD** » Sat May 22, 2004 6:28 pm

my 2 cents:
http://www.sonalksis.com

the highpass filter sounds really musical..

sorry, but I´m addicted

[ This Message was edited by: AndreD on 2004-05-22 19:29 ]

Post by **garyb** » Sat May 22, 2004 10:12 pm

turntables don't reproduce much lower than 30-40hz(don't want to knock the needle out of the groove!)...

cd or dvd players can reproduce much lower...

most cheap to mid-priced speaker systems only go down to about 40hz....

most small to mid sized systems without a subwoofer only go down to about 40hz....

i still like some action down there though!

(i'm trying to cut down a little....)

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Mon May 24, 2004 7:03 pm

talking about monitors is a good point. I know a few people who have systems with a sub-"woofer" like genelecs or the like. I always wondered how trusty it could be, and if it becomes more easy to get a "clean" mix (bass wise) with those tools.
see you

Plato · Post by **Plato** » Tue May 25, 2004 4:47 am

Sub-woofers certainly make it easier to judge what's going on down there, and if anything's getting in the way. I must admit, I do feel more confident using one, but as with any monitoring, I think you have to learn how they behave.

scary808 · Post by **scary808** » Tue May 25, 2004 6:04 pm

Very interesting topic! I did a little research on PA speaker freq responses. Most of them (excluding VERY expensive ones) go from 30hz up. Even if your speaker says it can reproduce lower, typically it can't be heard. A 20hz wave cycle is 50ft(ish). Since a sound wave has to complete it's cycle to be heard that can give an idea about how often you'll ever hear super low stuff.