Hello,
I've been looking at halion in place of my STS-4000 or upgrading to an STS-5000. What's everyone using these days and what would you all recommend?
In halion I'm considering the Giga library with the streaming stuff. That appeals to me if I can get my ulitimate drum library going (see other thread).
So how bout' it, what's anybody using both? What's the pros and cons?
STS-x000 VS. Halion
I've never been able to get into the STS, it just doesn't seem friendly to me, which is a pity since it has all the features.
Instead I'm holding out for this:
http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?kontakt_us
With my new P4 I can afford some heavy native processing
It streams and comes with a 2Gb sample library - and can load all the Battery kits. Seems good, but who knows, there's not even a demo yet. Release date is sometime next month.
Instead I'm holding out for this:
http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?kontakt_us
With my new P4 I can afford some heavy native processing
It streams and comes with a 2Gb sample library - and can load all the Battery kits. Seems good, but who knows, there's not even a demo yet. Release date is sometime next month.
Don't worry, they made an exact copy of the hardware Akai samplers series. Which are also a pain in the ass to control. The hardware recognises prob/bank select, CC#7, CC#10, 1 assignable CC#, pitchbend and that's about it. Everything else is done w sysex strings as long as from antwerp to tokyo. And I have to go in the program mode, where all midi is momentarily routed to the edited program. Would be like 'you could only edit the channel on Pulsarmixer which shows next to MasterPanel'. (which is not true, to avoid confusion;) So S5000 is quite unuseable for remote. I hate it.On 2002-03-29 01:38, Spirit wrote:
I've never been able to get into the STS, it just doesn't seem friendly to me, which is a pity since it has all the features.
(...)
Luckily, CW added some CC# options on their samplers series
at0m.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: at0mic on 2002-03-29 04:58 ]</font>
I checked out contak.
"The library, produced by YellowTools® and Native Instruments, makes extensive use of KONTAKT’s dynamic modulation abilities for patches that are truly alive"
I'm interested to see what that really means. They say that about Bob Clearmountain Drums and Ross Garfield Drum Doctor. Both of those libraries in Akai format are missing the really deep velocity sensing, the filters to accentuate the stuff and a whole slew of other things they could have done to make it beauitful right off the disk. I'm thinking 8-samples deep per note, some filtering but used only on the velocity switch, some ambient f/x mixing of the same kits so that I could add more room noise from the overheads if I wanted to like on a real kit! That kind of thing. I can't find it anywhere. And STS isn't doing it for me.
"The library, produced by YellowTools® and Native Instruments, makes extensive use of KONTAKT’s dynamic modulation abilities for patches that are truly alive"
I'm interested to see what that really means. They say that about Bob Clearmountain Drums and Ross Garfield Drum Doctor. Both of those libraries in Akai format are missing the really deep velocity sensing, the filters to accentuate the stuff and a whole slew of other things they could have done to make it beauitful right off the disk. I'm thinking 8-samples deep per note, some filtering but used only on the velocity switch, some ambient f/x mixing of the same kits so that I could add more room noise from the overheads if I wanted to like on a real kit! That kind of thing. I can't find it anywhere. And STS isn't doing it for me.
Obviously those complaining about the STS series whether: 1.did not use it enough to realize that it is a GREAT tool, easy to program and not complicated at all or 2.are expecting very different features from it than I do. I've been using it for months everyday and I can tell you that there's nothing wrong with it, even if it has its limitations...
For someone who doesn't need an awful lot of polyphony (64 voices is often more than enough), or more stereo outs, I believe that this sampler is fine.
I need an awful lot of polyphony, so I'll be using Giga as soon as the Gsif drivers for XP are available... But if the STS would offer this kind of power, I'd stick with it no doubt!!
For someone who doesn't need an awful lot of polyphony (64 voices is often more than enough), or more stereo outs, I believe that this sampler is fine.
I need an awful lot of polyphony, so I'll be using Giga as soon as the Gsif drivers for XP are available... But if the STS would offer this kind of power, I'd stick with it no doubt!!
oh yeah! i will, if i have 1G of ram, which is not so expensive, and also when i have movr than 12DSP.
STS3000 is heavy enough on my 6DSP
STS4000..........5000.
STS3000 is heavy enough on my 6DSP
STS4000..........5000.
I'm still seeing new things in life.
<p><a href="http://mp3.com/dxl">www.mp3.com/dxl</a></p>
<p><a href="http://mp3.com/dxl">www.mp3.com/dxl</a></p>
1. Please don't misunderstand my critique of the Ross Garfield and the Clearmountain stuff as being critical of STS.
2. STS is a great device and I like the layout, I like the way it works on my system, not having to buy a separate box w/ sync to run say Giga or Halion.
3. I guess my biggest concern is what are the performance advantages of upgrading from STS-4000 as I'm using to STS-5000. Is it worth the bucks and can I do more of what I want----drum sample and piano out of the box functionality with multi-velocity layering.
Is there any hope in this immediate arena for such functionality. I don't want my sampler to do anything else right now. I have lots of other toys to meet those needs. Drums from hell and a godly piano.
Howard
2. STS is a great device and I like the layout, I like the way it works on my system, not having to buy a separate box w/ sync to run say Giga or Halion.
3. I guess my biggest concern is what are the performance advantages of upgrading from STS-4000 as I'm using to STS-5000. Is it worth the bucks and can I do more of what I want----drum sample and piano out of the box functionality with multi-velocity layering.
Is there any hope in this immediate arena for such functionality. I don't want my sampler to do anything else right now. I have lots of other toys to meet those needs. Drums from hell and a godly piano.
Howard
I totally disagree with Spirit, and partially agree with dxl...
The STS is not only <B>EXTREMELY</b> easy to use, it's also pretty convenient - I have the ADAT inputs of my Pulsar connected to the AUX SENDS of my digital mixer - So I can easily route any external equipment (mics, synths, etc) into the Creamware environment, and quickly sample it directly into the STS. I can hit a few keys on my midi keyboard to set the range. I can do basic trimming of the sample directly inside the STS (it isn't the greatest sample editor, but it gets the job done for most of what I'm doing, the only thing I miss is a "Fade Out" option for basic use). All without leaving the environment of Pulsar/Logic.
However, if you only have 6 DSPs or less and already use eg: PulsarMixer and Pulsar synths, dxl is right, it makes more sense probably to use a software sampler. Honestly? I could never use one - the latency is too high - the onlything a software sampler would be good for <i>for me</i>, is slow attack items like strings & pads. But I tend to not use samplers for those types of sounds anyway... Get a used Pulsar1 for more DSP and then you can use your sampler with zero latency like hardware.
The STS is not only <B>EXTREMELY</b> easy to use, it's also pretty convenient - I have the ADAT inputs of my Pulsar connected to the AUX SENDS of my digital mixer - So I can easily route any external equipment (mics, synths, etc) into the Creamware environment, and quickly sample it directly into the STS. I can hit a few keys on my midi keyboard to set the range. I can do basic trimming of the sample directly inside the STS (it isn't the greatest sample editor, but it gets the job done for most of what I'm doing, the only thing I miss is a "Fade Out" option for basic use). All without leaving the environment of Pulsar/Logic.
However, if you only have 6 DSPs or less and already use eg: PulsarMixer and Pulsar synths, dxl is right, it makes more sense probably to use a software sampler. Honestly? I could never use one - the latency is too high - the onlything a software sampler would be good for <i>for me</i>, is slow attack items like strings & pads. But I tend to not use samplers for those types of sounds anyway... Get a used Pulsar1 for more DSP and then you can use your sampler with zero latency like hardware.
ohmelas,
As far as STS4000 vs. STS5000... well, the 5k stretching/filtering stuff IS nice, and you also get a larger number of assignable external controllers, which was my main reason for getting the 5K. Sounds like the STS4k you already have is doing everything you need, unless you need more filtering (more filter types, which I haven't fully explored yet), timestretching (it IS cool, but I don't find myself using it on a daily basis), and for me - the assignable external CCs...
As far as STS4000 vs. STS5000... well, the 5k stretching/filtering stuff IS nice, and you also get a larger number of assignable external controllers, which was my main reason for getting the 5K. Sounds like the STS4k you already have is doing everything you need, unless you need more filtering (more filter types, which I haven't fully explored yet), timestretching (it IS cool, but I don't find myself using it on a daily basis), and for me - the assignable external CCs...
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marcuspocus
- Posts: 2310
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Canada/France
I agree with you sub, totally... I've use STS, Halion, Giga, and the only 'bad' thing about STS, is that it use lots of DSP, that i can't use for other synths...
I prefer STS to Halion, Exs24, Giga, Battery cuz of integration, and REAL easy of use, and even fonctionnality. Like you said, you can record directly in STS. Halion, exs24 and giga don't do that.
I prefer STS to Halion, Exs24, Giga, Battery cuz of integration, and REAL easy of use, and even fonctionnality. Like you said, you can record directly in STS. Halion, exs24 and giga don't do that.
Will the added filters of STS-5000 empower me to do velocity f/x like opening the filer with velocity. Kurzweil did this a lot with their FUN's. Additionally when you hit the key faster like on a real snare, the pitch would rise ever so slightly. Can this be done on STS as far as its power is concerned?
That's something that's lacking on my 4000. I'm talking about getting that can't tell the difference sound that you can get from some great piano samples. I'd like to get the same for drums and I'm wondering if I can make that happen with the STS or do I have to jump ship, get Halion so that I can get a gigasampler library of killer drum samples?
Any luck out there with that approach or drum sample suggestions for the STS. Like I said earlier, I've Ross Garfield and Bob Clearmountain both I,II. I've got the ESI-32 drum kits from EMU and I've got the heavy hitter Kurzweil CD from Sweetwater sound converted to STS. I sometimes like what I hear but I'm looking f
That's something that's lacking on my 4000. I'm talking about getting that can't tell the difference sound that you can get from some great piano samples. I'd like to get the same for drums and I'm wondering if I can make that happen with the STS or do I have to jump ship, get Halion so that I can get a gigasampler library of killer drum samples?
Any luck out there with that approach or drum sample suggestions for the STS. Like I said earlier, I've Ross Garfield and Bob Clearmountain both I,II. I've got the ESI-32 drum kits from EMU and I've got the heavy hitter Kurzweil CD from Sweetwater sound converted to STS. I sometimes like what I hear but I'm looking f
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marcuspocus
- Posts: 2310
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Canada/France
Yes you can do this, i suggest you ask Eliam (on this forum) he is the master of this
You can assign velocity to modulate filter, pitch, lfo, attck, decay, release, the delay before the lfo start, the amount og filtering you apply, even panning. The great advantage that i see in STS5000 is really having more output, plus the great quantity of filter choice you have... In STS3000 you get 3 of them, Hipass, Lowpass, Bandpass.
In STS5000 you get 25!!! Yes 25 differents filter! And a lot more CC you can assign to control all of this...
In STS3000, you get pitchbend, CC#1 (modwhell), CC#7 (volume), CC#10 (pan) but only 1 external controler that you can assign freely.
If i remember, in STS5000 you get something like 10 external controler...Not sure of this though.
Personnaly, if i had enough DSP (more than 7) i would surely get myself the STS5000 as it beat all the other one in term of flexibility, ease of use, and features. But i agree that GIGA for example, has alot more polyphony, not that i need 160 notes, but the 32 of STS3000 is barely enough for orchestration. So, 2 piano, with multiple velocity and long release times eat the 32 voices pretty quickly.
BTW, the realtime pitch shift and timestretch is pretty cool, and not available on most of the other softsampler. Also, the fact that you can record directly in STS is very usefull, if you have 512meg or more of mem, you can easily record a complete song only in STS, cut it in small pieces and play them later in any order. I do this often for guitar parts... Imagine with drum part, and using pitchshifting and timestreching on those!
Real great value...
My 2 cents...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: marcuspocus on 2002-03-29 22:33 ]</font>
You can assign velocity to modulate filter, pitch, lfo, attck, decay, release, the delay before the lfo start, the amount og filtering you apply, even panning. The great advantage that i see in STS5000 is really having more output, plus the great quantity of filter choice you have... In STS3000 you get 3 of them, Hipass, Lowpass, Bandpass.
In STS5000 you get 25!!! Yes 25 differents filter! And a lot more CC you can assign to control all of this...
In STS3000, you get pitchbend, CC#1 (modwhell), CC#7 (volume), CC#10 (pan) but only 1 external controler that you can assign freely.
If i remember, in STS5000 you get something like 10 external controler...Not sure of this though.
Personnaly, if i had enough DSP (more than 7) i would surely get myself the STS5000 as it beat all the other one in term of flexibility, ease of use, and features. But i agree that GIGA for example, has alot more polyphony, not that i need 160 notes, but the 32 of STS3000 is barely enough for orchestration. So, 2 piano, with multiple velocity and long release times eat the 32 voices pretty quickly.
BTW, the realtime pitch shift and timestretch is pretty cool, and not available on most of the other softsampler. Also, the fact that you can record directly in STS is very usefull, if you have 512meg or more of mem, you can easily record a complete song only in STS, cut it in small pieces and play them later in any order. I do this often for guitar parts... Imagine with drum part, and using pitchshifting and timestreching on those!
Real great value...
My 2 cents...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: marcuspocus on 2002-03-29 22:33 ]</font>
Well easy for some and not so easy for others, that's the way of the world. There are no absolutes.
I've been using samplers for many years. In fact I went on the road with a band that had three samnplers as the complete instrument lineup (all ASR and EPS). I've used many samplers over the years and I find the STS to be a bit of a cow in terms of GUI and ease of operation. Hey, it's just my opinion. If someone else thinks it's the easiest thing they've ever used, that's great.
Also, with the power of new PC systems the latency issue is becoming much less decisive and will soon be irrelevant. The crucial issues become features and operation.
I've been using samplers for many years. In fact I went on the road with a band that had three samnplers as the complete instrument lineup (all ASR and EPS). I've used many samplers over the years and I find the STS to be a bit of a cow in terms of GUI and ease of operation. Hey, it's just my opinion. If someone else thinks it's the easiest thing they've ever used, that's great.
Also, with the power of new PC systems the latency issue is becoming much less decisive and will soon be irrelevant. The crucial issues become features and operation.
can giga do timestretch and pitch shfting?
i know halion is able to i suppose, never use it.
for controlers, halion can asign all freely.
halion and giga have lots out puts as well.
halion and giga can't record, but not a big deal.
it will be better to have more then one stereo record chennel on STS sampler.
u can actually get full poly on 7DSP?
but at the end, again, price VS performance.
when creamware get more reasonable on their pricing disregard the support, i will go for STS.
_________________
I'm still seeing new things in life.
<p><a href="http://mp3.com/dxl">www.mp3.com/dxl</a></p>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dxl on 2002-03-30 00:59 ]</font>
i know halion is able to i suppose, never use it.
for controlers, halion can asign all freely.
halion and giga have lots out puts as well.
halion and giga can't record, but not a big deal.
it will be better to have more then one stereo record chennel on STS sampler.
u can actually get full poly on 7DSP?
but at the end, again, price VS performance.
when creamware get more reasonable on their pricing disregard the support, i will go for STS.
_________________
I'm still seeing new things in life.
<p><a href="http://mp3.com/dxl">www.mp3.com/dxl</a></p>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dxl on 2002-03-30 00:59 ]</font>
Now were getting somewhere. Thanks for the insight guys.
Polyphony right now is important for the piano but not important for the drums.
Where to next....
Layers....how many velocity layers can I have per note? 4 like Roland or 8 like Kurzweil or something else? I believe then I wouldn't mind horribly importing some one else's really nice sample library that's 8 deep for their drums....
Someone told me they like wizoo. I listened to the samples and felt it was like most out of the box solutions good but missing the breath that I need. Any other suggestions in that line as well guys thanks.
Polyphony right now is important for the piano but not important for the drums.
Where to next....
Layers....how many velocity layers can I have per note? 4 like Roland or 8 like Kurzweil or something else? I believe then I wouldn't mind horribly importing some one else's really nice sample library that's 8 deep for their drums....
Someone told me they like wizoo. I listened to the samples and felt it was like most out of the box solutions good but missing the breath that I need. Any other suggestions in that line as well guys thanks.
STS sampler: 4 layer, but i've heard that there were possibilities of conversions from .gig to other formats, but the details have yet to be confirmed, to see what it does with 8 velocities programs...
As for the various parameter modulation, they are all easily accomplished in the STS. The only thing is that you cannot assign an envelope modulation to a controller other than velocity, but this is not dramatic for me, even if it should be fixed.
As for the various parameter modulation, they are all easily accomplished in the STS. The only thing is that you cannot assign an envelope modulation to a controller other than velocity, but this is not dramatic for me, even if it should be fixed.
Can't you can setup more than one keygroup for the same keys resulting in 4 more layers?
Spirit - if you need another detailed thread on how to make an STS program in under 2 minutes (from sampling, to keymaping all the way to playing the sample back), just ask But first check out the simple example in the STS manual...
Spirit - if you need another detailed thread on how to make an STS program in under 2 minutes (from sampling, to keymaping all the way to playing the sample back), just ask
But first check out the simple example in the STS manual...-
marcuspocus
- Posts: 2310
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Canada/France
Well, i've done some test, creating and 8 velocities program in giga, then converting it using awave, well, bad news...
8 layer, is not translated in 2 keygroup of 4 layer in sts... worst, it does the first 4 layers (for velocity of 0 to 63) and completely left out the other ones, leaving you with an unusable program. And even worst again.... The filters are not converted either... The good news in this, is that all those thing can be reproduced by hand, so it is a matter of not having the right tool to convert those program yet, but it's definitly doable... I bet awave will get this done sometimes...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: marcuspocus on 2002-03-30 21:51 ]</font>
8 layer, is not translated in 2 keygroup of 4 layer in sts... worst, it does the first 4 layers (for velocity of 0 to 63) and completely left out the other ones, leaving you with an unusable program. And even worst again.... The filters are not converted either... The good news in this, is that all those thing can be reproduced by hand, so it is a matter of not having the right tool to convert those program yet, but it's definitly doable... I bet awave will get this done sometimes...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: marcuspocus on 2002-03-30 21:51 ]</font>