I was just wondering how people use these functions and which possibilities they offer (on the STS5000)... Can you do live work on the samples? Can you bend a note and change the formant at the same time? Is the formant modulation following the same principles from an instrument to another? Is there other programs related to this, and what do they do?
Soo many questions...
I don't kow much about this area of sound, so if someone would be kind enough to explain the basics I'd be grateful!!
Thanks.
About formant shift and time stretch
-
ernest@303.nu
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:00 pm
- Contact:
Short answer, I'm in a hurry......
I have formant/stretch/pitch parameters connected to controllers. Tweak my Drehbank, and the sound eventually goes way beyond recognition! Everything can be done live (have in fact done this @ live performance). 'Realistic' sounding effects are especially possible with vocals and string/pad sounds.
If you have no problems with Aphex/Autechre/Funkstörung-kind-of-sounds (or even like them
) then the STS-5K is for you!
The algorythms certainly have their own character (somewhat 'ringy' when doing something extreme like stretching samples to 500% length) but used with care and tweaking other paramters at the same time they don't bore you too soon.....
Don't know about formant principles from one instrument to another, but don't think they're automatically adapting to the source material.... samples can be 'calculated' (non-realtime) beforehand following 3 different 'presets' (speech/music/special), and the result is a more 'precise' sounding timestretch/pitchshift/formantshift, but over a smaller range of octaves than the 'on-the-fly' method. Depends on the material, just tweak'n'try!
Will try to put up a track with heavy realtime STS-5K sample-mangling soon
hope this helps, ask ahead if you wanna know more
[edit]beware: the general problems of the STS-sampler range, mentioned in other threads, also apply to the STS-5K.... keep that in mind when deciding to buy this thing. I'll be looking into NI's solution soon to explore their sample-wizardry[/edit]
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ernest@303.nu on 2002-05-10 10:43 ]</font>
I have formant/stretch/pitch parameters connected to controllers. Tweak my Drehbank, and the sound eventually goes way beyond recognition! Everything can be done live (have in fact done this @ live performance). 'Realistic' sounding effects are especially possible with vocals and string/pad sounds.
If you have no problems with Aphex/Autechre/Funkstörung-kind-of-sounds (or even like them
) then the STS-5K is for you! The algorythms certainly have their own character (somewhat 'ringy' when doing something extreme like stretching samples to 500% length) but used with care and tweaking other paramters at the same time they don't bore you too soon.....
Don't know about formant principles from one instrument to another, but don't think they're automatically adapting to the source material.... samples can be 'calculated' (non-realtime) beforehand following 3 different 'presets' (speech/music/special), and the result is a more 'precise' sounding timestretch/pitchshift/formantshift, but over a smaller range of octaves than the 'on-the-fly' method. Depends on the material, just tweak'n'try!
Will try to put up a track with heavy realtime STS-5K sample-mangling soon
hope this helps, ask ahead if you wanna know more
[edit]beware: the general problems of the STS-sampler range, mentioned in other threads, also apply to the STS-5K.... keep that in mind when deciding to buy this thing. I'll be looking into NI's solution soon to explore their sample-wizardry[/edit]
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ernest@303.nu on 2002-05-10 10:43 ]</font>
I'm looking forward to use the NI's next release too...
As for the topic of this thread, I think I need more basic info to grasp what formant shift (and other related functions)actually are and for what purpose are they used. I have an idea about it, but I'd like to start at the basis. Maybe it could be interesting to have a thread on that in the pulsar study forum... just an idea...
As for the topic of this thread, I think I need more basic info to grasp what formant shift (and other related functions)actually are and for what purpose are they used. I have an idea about it, but I'd like to start at the basis. Maybe it could be interesting to have a thread on that in the pulsar study forum... just an idea...
Got Kontakt a few days ago 
And although I love my Pulsar I can tell you that Kontakt just blows the old STS3000 right out of the water. Obviously the STS is a lot cheaper and older so you'd certainly expect Kontakt to be much better, but it's MUCH better.
If I had to say what the main difference is:
Kontakt is easy to use. Absolutely simple, yet packed with all sorts of rich features. Maybe it's just me but I always found the STS to be tedious, ugly, clumsy and unnecessarily complex. For all I know my STS could do everything that Kontakt does, but I'd never know it because it's so hard to use.
Kontakt does what new technology should do: give you more power and options that you can use faster and easier than before.
My "sample mangle" and "useful sounds produced" output rate has suddenly soared.
And although I love my Pulsar I can tell you that Kontakt just blows the old STS3000 right out of the water. Obviously the STS is a lot cheaper and older so you'd certainly expect Kontakt to be much better, but it's MUCH better.
If I had to say what the main difference is:
Kontakt is easy to use. Absolutely simple, yet packed with all sorts of rich features. Maybe it's just me but I always found the STS to be tedious, ugly, clumsy and unnecessarily complex. For all I know my STS could do everything that Kontakt does, but I'd never know it because it's so hard to use.
Kontakt does what new technology should do: give you more power and options that you can use faster and easier than before.
My "sample mangle" and "useful sounds produced" output rate has suddenly soared.
-
ernest@303.nu
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:00 pm
- Contact:
Smooth as silk with Pulsar. I'm going from Pulsar into Kontakt sampling, then using Kontakt as a VSTi, or just playing direct into Acid, so I can't answer the ASIO part...
But I can tell you that standalone latency on "unlimited" voices is excellent. So far I've been hitting about 30 voices and the CPU hasn't moved above 10% (P4 1.8 512Mb)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2002-05-20 02:55 ]</font>
But I can tell you that standalone latency on "unlimited" voices is excellent. So far I've been hitting about 30 voices and the CPU hasn't moved above 10% (P4 1.8 512Mb)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2002-05-20 02:55 ]</font>
kontakt is 100% integrtated in vst. so, no problem with pulsar. you can set maximum 32 outs with 256 voices. if this not enough you can open another kontakt.... and anotherOn 2002-05-19 15:03, ernest@303.nu wrote:
No troubles in combination with Pulsar? How much channels can you bring into Pulsar/ASIO?
you can also use kontakt in stand alone mode.
you can import (teoreticly) giga format too, but kontakt don't play directly from disk like giga. also don't have enough layers for gigas. so, still have no alternative for giga, but in compareing with sts... and for playing akaies kontakt is ideal.
kontakt also have browser and sample converter and own format but kontakt's sample format is wav!
_________________
<font size=-2>got my mojo working, but it just won't work on you</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sandrob on 2002-05-20 03:34 ]</font>
If you want to hear some heavy STS5000 realtime pitch/time/formant shifting, take 4 minutes to hear my latest song:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=17&3
Half way through, I sample a prior bit of the full mix (yep, jsut route chunks of the *whole mixdown* into the STS! and play them back as samples. Playing them across the keyboard (pitch shifting), and alter time using controllers to change the groove (time shifting). The part to listen for is when the rhythm changes to the simpler 4/4 with the big chords.
I also muck about with a vocal sample using formant shifting earlier on in the piece.
You may guess that I'd just bought STS5000 and wanted to give it a try
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=17&3
Half way through, I sample a prior bit of the full mix (yep, jsut route chunks of the *whole mixdown* into the STS!
and play them back as samples. Playing them across the keyboard (pitch shifting), and alter time using controllers to change the groove (time shifting). The part to listen for is when the rhythm changes to the simpler 4/4 with the big chords.I also muck about with a vocal sample using formant shifting earlier on in the piece.
You may guess that I'd just bought STS5000 and wanted to give it a try
Kontakt has had disk streaming since 1.2x (I believe its a separate install though). True that it isn't a direct competitor with Giga, imo its more oriented towards dance & electronic genres whereas giga is more for reproducing the depth of real world sounds through many layers and massive samples (orchestration etc).On 2002-05-20 03:33, sandrob wrote:
you can import (teoreticly) giga format too, but kontakt don't play directly from disk like giga. also don't have enough layers for gigas. so, still have no alternative for giga, but in compareing with sts... and for playing akaies kontakt is ideal.
Also nice to see that NI has been a bit more on the ball this year with the Kontakt upgrades. The previous 2 years were rather sparse with many other product launches instead.
-
ChrisWerner
- Posts: 1738
- Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Germany/Bavaria
- Contact:
I tried several gig samples with Kontakt.
Some had 9 or more layers, DrumKits, percussion etc. also I use a piano with many layers with Kontakt. No problems here.
The biggest function in Kontakt for me is the semi-modular structure, so Kontakt can be not only a sample player it can be a huge sample based modular synth for new and fantastic sounds.
Second, I will mention the -what you see is what you get function-. Many animations and graphs, for example you can see and edit the lfo curve or the scales are showing their values when you play the sound.
Third and last nice thing, you can route your MW or any other midi CC to more than one parameter. For example route the MW to the speed and smooth button of the time machine and play a vocal sample, that´s much fun.
Edit: DFD comes within the newer update and isn´t separated anymore. Since v1.5 Kontakt has a beat slicer intigrated but I haven´t tried it, yet.
cheers
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2004-06-22 11:28 ]</font>
Some had 9 or more layers, DrumKits, percussion etc. also I use a piano with many layers with Kontakt. No problems here.
The biggest function in Kontakt for me is the semi-modular structure, so Kontakt can be not only a sample player it can be a huge sample based modular synth for new and fantastic sounds.
Second, I will mention the -what you see is what you get function-. Many animations and graphs, for example you can see and edit the lfo curve or the scales are showing their values when you play the sound.
Third and last nice thing, you can route your MW or any other midi CC to more than one parameter. For example route the MW to the speed and smooth button of the time machine and play a vocal sample, that´s much fun.
Edit: DFD comes within the newer update and isn´t separated anymore. Since v1.5 Kontakt has a beat slicer intigrated but I haven´t tried it, yet.
cheers
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2004-06-22 11:28 ]</font>
>I was just wondering how people use these functions and which possibilities they offer (on the STS5000)...
Lots of possibilities, not all intuitively obvious. Robot mode can be used for vocoder come antares autotune like effects. Pitch independant of time can be used to trick up convincing vocal harmonies from a single source.
Pitch independant of time can be used for lovely clattering tuned drum loops you can play on the keyboard - an effect similar to some of the tricky effects squarepusher has used in his hard normal daddy period (though i think he was using tuned millisecond delays)
Formant shifting can be used to change vocal characteristics, dull, sharpen or tune the body recorded instruments, or perform some lovely tricks when used in combination with keyboard tracking.
Using both formant and time dilation you can do great things with accoustic instruments and sounds. Twice i've used it when i've been working with instruments that I wanted to make more convincing. Once to clean up a bad piano multisample (by throwing away the samples that didn't quite fit and using formant shifting to change the body as you play up the keyboard and stretch the range that a single sample could go. This can get rid of the micky mouse effect that makes samples quicker and squeekier as you play up the keyboard.) And once to produce a more convincing body to some cello which was sounding very unconvincing before when transposed in the lower registers.
Robot mode was also very useful for cello, where i once took a recorded phrase, ripped all the pitch data out of it and re-composed the single instrument into a complete cello section using the original phrasing and intonation. STS has a nice function for this where you can use one key as a trigger (or the first key of any chord you play) to trigger the sample, and all subsequent keypresses pick up the sample from the point at which it's playing - think a polyphonic version of mono legato mode on an old analog synth (where legato play doesn't retrigger the envelope).
>Can you do live work on the samples? Can you bend a note and change the formant at the same time?
Yes, from memory i have done this - by putting formant on the mod wheel. Used for a vocal loop which i kept in synch with the beat but increasingly micky moused or jolly green gianted for that creepy "my acid's kickin in" effect. Live formant shifting on some instruments can produce a more spacey/trippy version of the filter sweep effect often used in the builds in bangin house music. It's a different effect, and a more convincing and interesting way of producing that old cliche than using a straight resonant filter.
Is the formant modulation following the same principles from an instrument to another?
There are several types of formant modulation available with sts, and to prepare a sample for more accurate (hmmm) formant modulation you can analyse it using several different algorithms to derive it's pitch information. These sample analysis algorithms are specialised for different instrument types, from vocal to string etc.
I found in the robot cello example above that using the wrong type of analysis worked better as it left the natural pitch slides into a note and tiny grace notes during attack bowing intact. This created a very convincing performance compared to the more accurate pitch correction i tried earlier which left the source material sounding too reprocessed and artificial.
>Is there other programs related to this, and what do they do?
If you are a logic user (and i'm sure most of the major sequencer/recorders have similar functions) look for the time and pitch machine. You can do basic formant functions on this, such as stretching time without effecting spectral characteristics, changing formants for micky mouse of jolly green giant effects and so on. It's much slower and not nearly as flexible but will give you some idea as to what's possible.
The short answer is if you actually use the sts a lot, then the sts5k is deffinitely worth getting. The functions you get from the formant effects may not be the most often exploited kit in your bag of tricks, but will pop up from time to time as amazing problem solvers. From what I hear the quality of the sts effects aren't up to the roland variphrase, but they are certainly usable and occasionally quite charming. If you are a samplist you'll also find a whole bunch of other quirky filters that the sts offers above the others (phasing etc).
Hope this info helps.
Lots of possibilities, not all intuitively obvious. Robot mode can be used for vocoder come antares autotune like effects. Pitch independant of time can be used to trick up convincing vocal harmonies from a single source.
Pitch independant of time can be used for lovely clattering tuned drum loops you can play on the keyboard - an effect similar to some of the tricky effects squarepusher has used in his hard normal daddy period (though i think he was using tuned millisecond delays)
Formant shifting can be used to change vocal characteristics, dull, sharpen or tune the body recorded instruments, or perform some lovely tricks when used in combination with keyboard tracking.
Using both formant and time dilation you can do great things with accoustic instruments and sounds. Twice i've used it when i've been working with instruments that I wanted to make more convincing. Once to clean up a bad piano multisample (by throwing away the samples that didn't quite fit and using formant shifting to change the body as you play up the keyboard and stretch the range that a single sample could go. This can get rid of the micky mouse effect that makes samples quicker and squeekier as you play up the keyboard.) And once to produce a more convincing body to some cello which was sounding very unconvincing before when transposed in the lower registers.
Robot mode was also very useful for cello, where i once took a recorded phrase, ripped all the pitch data out of it and re-composed the single instrument into a complete cello section using the original phrasing and intonation. STS has a nice function for this where you can use one key as a trigger (or the first key of any chord you play) to trigger the sample, and all subsequent keypresses pick up the sample from the point at which it's playing - think a polyphonic version of mono legato mode on an old analog synth (where legato play doesn't retrigger the envelope).
>Can you do live work on the samples? Can you bend a note and change the formant at the same time?
Yes, from memory i have done this - by putting formant on the mod wheel. Used for a vocal loop which i kept in synch with the beat but increasingly micky moused or jolly green gianted for that creepy "my acid's kickin in" effect. Live formant shifting on some instruments can produce a more spacey/trippy version of the filter sweep effect often used in the builds in bangin house music. It's a different effect, and a more convincing and interesting way of producing that old cliche than using a straight resonant filter.
Is the formant modulation following the same principles from an instrument to another?
There are several types of formant modulation available with sts, and to prepare a sample for more accurate (hmmm) formant modulation you can analyse it using several different algorithms to derive it's pitch information. These sample analysis algorithms are specialised for different instrument types, from vocal to string etc.
I found in the robot cello example above that using the wrong type of analysis worked better as it left the natural pitch slides into a note and tiny grace notes during attack bowing intact. This created a very convincing performance compared to the more accurate pitch correction i tried earlier which left the source material sounding too reprocessed and artificial.
>Is there other programs related to this, and what do they do?
If you are a logic user (and i'm sure most of the major sequencer/recorders have similar functions) look for the time and pitch machine. You can do basic formant functions on this, such as stretching time without effecting spectral characteristics, changing formants for micky mouse of jolly green giant effects and so on. It's much slower and not nearly as flexible but will give you some idea as to what's possible.
The short answer is if you actually use the sts a lot, then the sts5k is deffinitely worth getting. The functions you get from the formant effects may not be the most often exploited kit in your bag of tricks, but will pop up from time to time as amazing problem solvers. From what I hear the quality of the sts effects aren't up to the roland variphrase, but they are certainly usable and occasionally quite charming. If you are a samplist you'll also find a whole bunch of other quirky filters that the sts offers above the others (phasing etc).
Hope this info helps.
