DSP Overload message

PC Configurations, motherboards, etc, etc

Moderators: valis, garyb

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:46 pm

Hi, something that's been bugging me for some time, you might be able to help...

I have an old 15 DSP card and a 6 DSP, with two STDM connectors on the card edge connecting the two. I also have a syncplate, with my Presonus Digimax FS serving sample clock to Scope via Wordclock on a BNC cable...

When I start up a big project (one with lots of modules and submixers in), I usually get the DSP Load (big modules don't fit) message, which I can dismiss, and the project loads and operates fine. Is this normal? Does Scope when coming up not initially 'know' about the second card?

Also, I see in my DSP Meter window, both cards are mentioned, and all 21 DSPs are listed - board 1 has 1-6 DSPs, board 2 has 1-14. But... 6 + 14 = 20! So where's the last DSP being used? Why is it not listed in the DSP Meter? Is one DSP reserved for the Syncplate? Or other duties?

The other point is - at the top of the DSP Meter, I see 18 yellow bars, and 7 blacked-out bars (see the attached image). This I do admit is a pretty busy project! But when I switch to 96kHz sample rate on the Presonus, I get the "Big modules don't fit" message, and need to swap down to 48kHz again. Not a problem, but does upping the sample rate consume as much as 7/25's of my total 21-DSP capacity? I can increase polyphony in that same project - e.g. go from 1 to 6 polyphony on Minimax - and that fits 'fine' (a seventh voice on the Minimax does push it 'past the red' tho).

Also, the STDM Cables can come loose quite easily - I know what symptoms that presents - reach into my PC and reseat them. It's only really started to happen in the more recent past. Since this is both annoying, time consuming, and I fear I'll end up doing damage to the gold plated connectors on the card's spine, I'll use the hitfoundry.com article about making my own... Looks handy enough - have others done it?

I'm also very tempted to try making new Breakout cables, again using the hitfoundry.com article and the very helpful pinout labelling, but that looks far more fiddly - might have to employ my tech friend - amp fixer extraordinaire! eats tubes for breakfast - who's a dab hand with a soldering iron. You'll notice my other post about corroded terminal connectors... doesn't cause issues afaik, but who knows what I might be missing out on in terms of sonic quality...

I also have a Noah EX now - my original 2-part Noah is up for sale! If you're interested in adding to your Scope setup (have Noah slaved to Scope by Wordclock, and sending 8 channels out via ADAT into Scope, effectively giving me a 35 DSP setup (!)), then let me know...

Yes, I do love Sonic Core and Creamware gear! My UAD rig sees less action all the time - altho exporting stems from Ableton to Reaper for mixdown usually get some UAD treatment still. And Christ knows that was some investment that I know I'll find it difficult to recoup! Not rush tho, some tools (like the VOG and Transient Designer and EMT 140 Plate reverb) don't appear to have an analogy in Scope...

Anyone notice the tide has turned against Universal Audio's recent release of the Sonnox Oxford EQ on uaudio.com? The self-gratifying reviews have gone sour! hee hee ;-)


Thanks again, Eanna
Attachments
DSPMeter.jpg
DSPMeter.jpg (27.43 KiB) Viewed 4892 times
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 22100
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by garyb » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:20 pm

96k DOUBLES the DSP load.

DSP overload depends on a few factors. if there is a device that takes more than one dsp, or one that must be completely on one DSP, you can see this message at much lower than full usage. the reason is that the latency between chips can make it impossible for true realtime operation. the "global optimisation" reloads the DSPs and it shuffles the order the DSPs are loaded in to try to find a combination that works better.

with some other DSP systems, there is no chance to reload in a different configuration, so when you run out of resources from a problem like this, you are done.

User avatar
dante
Posts: 4002
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: Melbourne Australia
Contact:

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by dante » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:57 pm

Eanna wrote: And Christ knows that was some investment that I know I'll find it difficult to recoup! Not rush tho, some tools (like the VOG and Transient Designer and EMT 140 Plate reverb) don't appear to have an analogy in Scope...
SPL Transient Designer runs on Scope : http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_09/spl_td.htm Seems no longer available in S|C shop but you might be able to pick one up second hand.

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 22100
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by garyb » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:35 pm

the S|C plate is pretty darned nice(thanks warp69!!!).

DAS also has a TD type processor.

only 14 dsps of the 15 on a Scope card are used for devices. the 15th is for management of the system and redundancy. that's why it was removed in the later versions of the pro board.

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:39 am

Thank you guys.
Apologies in advance for my long posts!

Kinda guessed that the last DSP was for some kind of card management or redundancy. Surprising that they could dispense with it in later boards.

And my guess about the initial 'overload' message could be because it either initially doesn't register the existence of the second board on STDM, or because it attempts to assume a higher sample rate. Seems that the message comes up without actually having loaded the devices onto the cards (the dialog comes up before any of the devices are loaded into the Gui at least), so unless it attempts to pre-empt DSP usage, or if a Project has its DSP requirements in some header, ... Either way, it's no dealbreaker.

I should have noticed that 96kHz doubles the DSP count. Gonna see that for myself later this evening...

I really need to exercise UAD restraint at the mixdown/mastering treatment stage and try using Scope more. The pre-prepared Mastering project looks like a starting point. If I could release funds by moving UAD on, then that'd be magic!

I have to come up with a good approach to automation for Scope devices. Most of the time, it's just synths with their onboard modulations that I use from Scope in my projects. And effects are applied, again modulated by envelopes, lfos, key tracking, or similar...

I use Ableton for my initial track workings - enjoy the workflow, it's a great scratchpad, isn't it, and things like Drum Racks and saving Group Tracks and Group Inserts for easily drag-and-drop save-and-restore are great...
Some live recording features, like comp'ing, are sorely lacking - but I'm kinda used to the workarounds, for that at least - just a bit of time with Warp Markers if it's just a timing thing, or outside Ableton in the external sample editor (Audacity) if it's obvious, or Melodyne more usually now (just fix the best take!) - and I've tried using Reaper for that too, but it's "too separate" from Ableton for my liking.

But Ableton's handling of external Midi isn't great - between questionable midi clock, lack of Sysex and NRPN support, and an inability to easily specify an external instrument device to send named (ideally) or numbered (surely) CC out, make automation of external gear either impossible (with Sysex and NRPN, without going the Max For Live route), or fiddly (the CC Rider VST approach does work (found the approach on this forum), but its routing in tracks is fiddly, and the automation curves seem glitchy at my early stage of its use - might be doing something wrong tho?).

Every time I spend more time learning the Scope thing, the more I see myself saying "Feckit, sell the lot of outboard and go get an Xite". Few synths, few effects, + UAD + 2-slot Noah + maybe the 6DSP card is prob not far off the price of an Xite1D or maybe even an Xite1. And Xite is stage-worthy too - the band I occasionally 'guest-star' in (!) could potentially leverage an Xite with great effect. Again, today is one of those Xite days....

Once I find that happy place with smooth CC Automation from Ableton to Scope tho, that decision has to remain on the long finger... and I'll continue to automate mixdown and mastering plugins as VSTs (UAD or ITB)...
If a VST could be developed, one like CC Rider, where fxp presets involved naming the CC sends, that Ableton saw as a true Midi Effect, then that could be the answer.

Should I be investigating XTC mode? (never tried it, but I seem to have noticed that devices need to be coded to allow XTC mode - don't need issues with some devices being OK, and some not).

If anyone has a Best Practice using Automation to External Synths from Ableton, and specifically for Scope devices, then I'm all ears!

Thank you all for your help, Eanna
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:46 am

Hi, I'm in work today, so I'm interleaving work with thinking about my Automation woes in Ableton.

It's possible that my CC tweakings (from my Midi Controller) were recorded as a Clip Envelope, as well as the automation curve for that same CC that I drew in my CCRider track. That would explain what sounded like choppy automation - the clip envelope was competing with the automation curve. I'll validate that tonight, and report back...

As a pay-for option instead of CC Rider, I see the Expert Sleepers Silent Way, and the Blue Cat Remote Control, are potential solutions. I understand that the Silent Way is ideal for modulating / automating Modular as well as sending CV/Gate, but I believe it can send CC as well. And BlueCat's interface is more Midi/CC-centric.
I'll be reading the manuals for both tonight, and their proper use in Ableton...

Anyone tried these plugins to control Scope devices by Midi?
Anyone use these plugins specifically from Ableton?


Thanks, Eanna
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

dawman
Posts: 13609
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: PROJECT WINDOW

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by dawman » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:30 pm

Silentway Suite 2.0 makes Modular a true pleasure.
It's different from DAW to DAW, but Reaper really is a great compliment, and I am not even using the automations by recording CCs.
I made Modular patches I can mute/unmute and each prgrm chng message corresponds with SWS rates, and settings. Sync'd Waldorf Wavetables are now thick and creamy w/o noticable stepping from the lame 0-128 specs. Wavetrip presets can even be smoothed out in SWS and it's exactly as fresh sounding as that old Money for nothing and the chocks for free song from the early MTV days.
It's worth every penny and we even now have new skins.

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:16 pm

OK, have been interleaving my investigations into Ableton control of all Scope devices with what's turned out to be a very busy week in work...

The CCRider VST works fine, but the routing is a bit messy, and sync'ing the Automation track with the Midi track is not a given - automation curves are recorded in an Audio track, and the Midi track sending notes to Scope receives the automated CC movements from the Audio track as PostFX. Also, haven't been able to find a way to rename the CCs, so I'm looking at CC35 and not Filter Cutoff for example... Unfortunately, it seems that once a Rack Macro (something renamable!) takes control over a VST parameter, it swallows the midi...
It's OK tho! Kudos to voidar and Tau and others on this post for posting the VST DLL, and for explaining how to set it up: http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26701

Just investigating the Blue Cat Remote and the use of Expert Sleepers Silent Way from a theoretical viewpoint at this point. No doubt, Silent Way is the 'only' choice for Modular - and with djmicron's embedding of scope synths in the Modular shell, you get the best of both worlds in that respect - e.g. http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=31096.

But the real winner so far in the category of 'Free solutions' is undoubtedly ClyphX, and specifically, the Macrobat script that comes with ClyphX. Anyone else digging ClyphX/Macrobat? It's downright fabulous!
After downloading the ClyphX package from the web and putting it in your "Midi Remote Scripts" dir, you set ClyphX up as Control Surface in the Midi tab in Preferences, outputting to one of the Scope PCI Midi Outs. Then in a Midi track, create an Instrument Rack, rename it to start with "nK MIDI", add the name of whatever device you're controlling (just for identification purposes), and append the Midi Channel number in the form [CH<n>] where <n> is the Midi Channel number. E.g. my rack is called "nK MIDI - Minimax - [CH10]". Then, insert a regular Ableton External Instrument device in the Instrument chain - midi to, and audio from (in my case, midi to channel 10 in Scope, and audio from channels 11 and 12 on my Scope Mixer's ASIO Outs)... Then for each Macro control, label it with the CC number you want to control, in the form [CC<n>] <name> - e.g. "[CC35] Filter Cutoff". The ClyphX Control Surface sends the CC from the Macro knob to the Midi Destination set up in Midi Control, and the External Instrument looks after sending the Midi Notes to the device from the Clip. You can then use Scope's Midi Learn function to pick up the CC value being sent to it on that channel by Macrobat. Sorted!

In the Arrangement view, the single track of Notes with the Automation curve sending CC makes it absolutely no different to the way I use VSTs, and with my Nocturn, once I select the track, I can immediately control the Macros in the Rack by the Nocturn remote script...

I've not even scratched the surface of control possible with my Launchpad with ClyphX itself - 'scriptable' automations triggered from Clips.

The same developer - Stray - has other Midi Remote Scripts - one which particularly interests me is LPC for Launchpad, which, if you could learn it, would add huge value to your Launchpad investment for a small outlay (32.50 bucks).

ClyphX (includes Macrobat)
- Download and Forum: http://beatwise.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=clyphx
Brief youtube vids
- Macrobat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKXsZeMliHk
- ClyphX Snap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbyFNRjn7KI
- ClyphX XClips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGBQw6tn0Rg
And the LPC site
- By the same author: http://www.nativekontrol.com/Products.html

I will add more stuff in the coming days, including ALS files you can try out in your own sets, and a better set of instructions for those that are interested. But this looks like a runner!

Thanks, Eanna
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

jksuperstar
Posts: 1583
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:57 pm

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by jksuperstar » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:06 pm

Thanks for all the LaunchPad links! I've been digging through max4live (and also lemur/touchosc for ipad) to find a suitable step sequencer, but nothing has fit the bill yet. Native Kontol looks pretty nice, and promising.

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:35 am

You're welcome.

Same as yourself, I know Ableton is scriptable. Got sick of the "You need Max for that.." crap. Sending CC's to external synths, I gotta get Max? No! If I get MaxForLive, is cause it allows you do stuff you wouldn't expect a DAW/Sequencer to do. Not for stuff that any DAW or Sequencer should be expected to provide as part of the core product.

If you do get the ClyphX or LPC, keep us in the loop of your experiences...

Thanks, Eanna
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

Fluxpod
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Telefunkenland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Fluxpod » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:55 am

Max4Life is absolutly worth every penny imo.I use it with a monome128 and a Manta.But you can get around with python scripts aswell.Many around for launchpads and apc 20-40.

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:26 am

Yes, I'd agree with your opinion, that MaxForLive is worth the outlay. What you get by adding the Max runtime as a mediation layer to the Ableton Live Object Model is exciting, and the variety of free and inventive Max patches is super impressive. I don't have MaxForLive, yet!, so I'm only looking longingly at it thru the shop window at the moment.

My interest in not using Max in this context is to allow those who don't have MaxForLive to control external instruments with a free extension to the core Ableton Live application. In my searches, I've found extensions that I previously only believed existed in MaxForLive - incl. CC Automation from Rack Macros to External gear (my initial requirement), and composite Macros (macros controlling macros) with Macrobat, and the scripted flexibility to control the Ableton Session with remarkable depth and expression with XClips and the Ableton Arrangement with XCues, runtime control over Controller setup with XControls, and the ability to store a snapshot of Ableton sets/tracks/devices/routing with Snap, all from ClyphX.

Powerful stuff!

Another reason for my enthusiasm for ClyphX/Macrobat, is that I can focus on learning this new extension to my Ableton installation -without- the distraction of MaxForLive and all those tasty Max devices... :-)

And while learning how ClyphX works, I'm learning more about Ableton too. My web searches are yielding useful results now..


Thanks, Eanna
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

jksuperstar
Posts: 1583
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:57 pm

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by jksuperstar » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:43 am

One thing I recently found for the launchpad was an expanded remote script for ableton. It carries the default features forward, but then adds a few modes to handle device parameters and midi clip step sequencing. I like it, not only for the new features, but it continues to work as before with m4l, automap, and anything else it once did.

http://motscousus.com/stuff/2011-07_Nov ... e_Scripts/

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:35 pm

garyb wrote:the S|C plate is pretty darned nice(thanks warp69!!!)
Hi, been looking for this - where can I find it?
I'd love the chance to A/B it with the UAD equivalent.

Only post here I could find from warp69 was to his old Sonic Timeworks site - has just the one VST, and no Scope devices...
Is Warp69's device included with Scope 5.1?
(I'm on Scope 5.0)

Thanks, Eanna
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:37 pm

jksuperstar wrote:expanded remote script for ableton
Thank you, I'll check that out... Believe the ClyphX maintains similar 'backward compatibility' with other contexts like M4L and Automap (not that I really bother with Automap much anymore...)
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 22100
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by garyb » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:49 pm

fx/stereo/reverb/sc-plate

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:33 pm

Thanks garyb!
Sounds very good to my ears...

What's the best strategy to reload the devices if you max out your DSP? When presented with the Windows API dialog saying "Big Modules don't Fit", I have the opportunity to reallocate devices across the DSPs.
However, sometimes, if I add one too many devices or synth voices, I get a Scope-skinned dialog entitled PCI-Master-Overflow! "PCI capacity limit reached".
The only way I know how to get back from this is to hit Cancel on that dialog, revert the change that resulted in the overflow, and force a reload by selecting another Clock source in the Samplerate Settings window, or swapping to a different sample rate.

Also, the XTC Mode checkbox is not present in my Settings->Global window. Any idea why that might be the case? My cset.ini file looks OK, I think...
I don't miss XTC mode, but I'm curious as to why my Scope install doesn't appear to have that option available to it.
Might it be because my Project has ASIO channels? Is it Project-specific? (you wouldn't think it would be, if it's in a tab called "Global"..)

Finally, for now!, the Minimax and Prophet V devices in my Noah don't have the Chorus/Flanger and L/R Delay options, where my Scope equivalents do, in their 'Add' panels. Do you know, what 'flavour' of Chorus, Flanger and Delay is available in the Scope version of the Synths? I can use inserts or aux returns in my Noah mixer if I want to 'recreate' those effects - but which Scope/Noah effects, if any, are set up in the Scope versions of those synths...?

Basically, with Noah slaved by Wordclock on BNC to my Scope Syncplate, and 8 ADAT channels from Noah into my main Scope mixer, I want to see if I can simply do away with the need to run the synths in Scope that are available on my Noah EX. That effectively adds the 11 DSPs in my Noah EX to my 21 Scope DSPs...

Thanks again, Eanna
Last edited by Eanna on Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 22100
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by garyb » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:45 pm

difficult to answer so many questions without missing something....

the method of reloading you mentioned is what to do if retrying a few times won't work. otherwise, try a few global optimisations(if they're available).

the lack of vstim/xtc mode might indicate that you skipped that step in the installation. if it was installed, it should be in the global settings window, no matter what.

i don't know exactly what chorus/flange fx were used in the minimax. they might just be the stock modules, but maybe not. in any case, you can use the ones in the Noah mixer, or you can use the Scope modules when you bring the audio back into Scope.

yes, that's one of the things that make Scope so cool, that you can integrate whatever hardware or software you want into the mix in realtime.

Eanna
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by Eanna » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:48 pm

Thanks man - not only did you not miss any questions, you answered them all!
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 22100
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: DSP Overload message

Post by garyb » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:52 pm

:)

Post Reply