Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

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astroman
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by astroman »

Yesterday this thing arrived:
EE4BD183-C5DC-46F6-B6BF-6484AACFB7B5.jpeg
EE4BD183-C5DC-46F6-B6BF-6484AACFB7B5.jpeg (394.25 KiB) Viewed 610 times
Bad luck: my supposedly socket 478 CPU wasn‘t... :-? which turned out as an advantage, though.
To find a proper match I had to read a lot about those P4s, lots of answers on questions I never dared to ask. :D
Anyway... I ordered 2 mobile Pentium 4-M, 1 spare if manipulations for VCore fail or if I fry one of them.
Thanks again to @PlanetZaxxon because he triggered the action - waiting patiently now another couple of days...

The board is a DFI-ITOX G4V620-U, Intel 845 chipset with internal graphic. Iirc I had an 845 ages ago which performed well with 3 Pulsar Ones.
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garyb
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by garyb »

you didn't need to get one that old....
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astroman
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by astroman »

thanks for your concern, Gary :)
The board is supposed to host a HardSid Quattro ISA card and since there‘s another ISA I‘ll add a Yamaha SW60XG to run XG-Gold... and of course 3 Scope cards to receive those 6 analog channels from the SID and XG.
(leaving the shared 3rd ISA and 4th PCI free)

I expect the mobile 2Ghz CPU to drop to 1Ghz when plugged into the desktop unmodified, and hope this drop will reduce power consumption and heat. Cycle loss isn‘t a dealbreaker in this case with no DAW running on the machine.
But I‘ve no idea if fiction will meet reality... (it‘s a nonsense project anyway, mainly to prove it can be done) :D
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valis
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by valis »

Why drop the multiplier in half, why not just say 2 steps?
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astroman
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by astroman »

That‘s just my guess from someone‘s report about mobile P4s on a desktop motherboard.
In his case multiplier 17 dropped to 12 as the CPU was flipped into power saving state because speed stepping wasn‘t properly interpreted by the bios.
My main goal is to have the system as power efficient and cool as possible, that‘s why I choose the mobile P 4-Ms instead if a regular 3 Ghz P4.
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valis
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by valis »

I have an older P4-M lying about, I recall grabbing it for $15 because it was the fastest (and coolest running) ever supported on a desktop board. I'll have a look and let you know what model it is later this evening or tomorrow. Have to dig in my closet 'o parts and find it...
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astroman
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by astroman »

thanks Valis, would be interesting to know. But not necessary to dig too deep: the chips are already paid and on their way.
2 x Intel Pentium 4-M SL6RA Mobile Prozessor 2GHz 400MHz 512KB Sockel 478 Northwood
(about 25 bucks for both... remember original prices ? :D )

Iirc I used a Celeron 1Ghz in a small Compaq desktop with 3slot PCI riser for 3 Pulsar Ones (my most crammed computer ever) and later a Tualatin 1.4 (?) Ghz on the famous Asus TUSL board back then.
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valis
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by valis »

I started with an Athlon MP (duallie) and then a Tualatin when the MP had useless USB and needing to use a PCI card for that conflicted with Scope. The Tualatin was great actually, but I migrated to a dual p4 rig which actually still runs my Scope cards today. I've been meaning to move them into a 2008 era machine that I've had for storage uses (and some rendering) and had always meant to migrate over to that spot for Scope. I even have the machine meant to replace it lying in the other room needing to be built...

Why? Well I had to do some fan fixing and had a failed Scope card some months back, but once that was sorted this silly Prestonia Xeon rig just keeps working... and it's been on 24/7 for most of its life. (please don't cancel me for this)
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astroman
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

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Things just went too well... all arrived in time and assembly was easy. Powered up , memory 1G and clock 2Ghz (20x100) were identified, drives showed up. Watching temperature in bios for half an hour showed a stable 37-40 Celsius, so the cooler seems to fit.
But whatever I try to boot shuts off the machine silently, no beeps or errors, just switches off :(
Runtime until death varies from 2 seconds to 2 minutes (the latter with a Win-7 installation CD).
Never experienced a similiar scenario before.

ps: never mind - it‘s probably the tension of cooler mount, just installed Win2k ... but with the PC flat on the floor so the cooler is pointing downwards exactly vertical. In tower orientation the weight of the cooler (Scythe Katana) may make one side come off.
The mobile CPU lacks the heat spreader and so is slightly more slim than a regular one.
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valis
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by valis »

So you'll want to treat it like a de-lidded chip, which started in that era for people who still wanted to OC with p4's. Might be able to find some relevant info on how to adjust the height or swap standoffs etc...
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astroman
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

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I‘m rather certain that overheating caused the shutdowns as the bios temperature is down to 34 Celsius when the cooler‘s weight is pointing exactly down.I‘ll probably replace it anyway as it blows against the airstream of the psu.

The Win2K install was pure chance because it happened to be the 1st CD I grabbed just to change conditions, but it‘s been working without a glitch (while searching old CDs for the graphic and chipset drivers) for quite some time now.
I have a couple of aluminium foils (parts of an old camera :D) in different thickness to cut shims from...
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valis
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by valis »

Not sure which mobile CPU's had on-die thermal sensors in that era, but a good deal of the P4 era still had that off-die and just on the substrate (next to the chip) so thermals were only a rough correlator to overheating. Core & Core2 era brought on-die sensors & TDP limits...

As for shims, I'm not sure what you intend there. The mounting mechanism needs to be closer to the cpu, placing material between the CPU & Heatsink is probably not ideal.
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by garyb »

why struggle?
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astroman
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by astroman »

Don‘t worry - the only struggle is to find those old datafiles... and ok, ISA and the SID Midi is a bit strange :D
Scope and SAW Studio are installed and the onboard graphic delivers 1920x1200 dots in acceptable quality.
I could transplant the heatspreader from a dead P4 to improve placement of the Katana-2, but the system works well in it’s current horizontal position.
thanks to both of you for ongoing support, much appreciated :)
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valis
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by valis »

Digging around for info on how to space the screws to get the right downward pressure and height, shows that our global brain needs better search tools once something is out of cultural fashion. Silentpcreview.com is the only content I'm finding that references anything remotely useful, and the most relevant result is as follows:

Reference the part that starts with the bold heading AOpen Socket 478 HS Options and you can see both the downward force compared for P4-M & P4 desktop cpu's, as well as his measurements of the difference in height.

This board uses the "Traditional" flex retention bracket style, and should actually work with most coolers that fit that bracket as the tension simply pushes down on the heatsink, and based on the previous article the lesser pressure might actually work out based on this difference in height.

Contrast that with the screw-into-backplate type cooling with this motherboard, and you'll see why I figured you might be able to adjust the height slightly with some washers on the rear-side (either between the rear-facing backplate and board, if the screws from the mounting mechanism go all the way through). Nonconductive (red) washers are probably best here, just in case they touch a nearby component.
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astroman
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by astroman »

thanks, some interesting measures on that side... I usually rely on fingertip intuition only :D
Imho the main problem with clamp mounting is the difficulty to put it in place untilted (to avoid tension to the side of the die), so my vote would be the screws method, too.
But the compensation of distance (with clamps) is actually simple: just glue 4 small strips to the clamp holder.

I‘ll replace the Katana-2 anyway if the system gets back to tower positioning because the mechanic load would require some mounting support (as shown in the article) to reduce downward bent caused by weight.
It seems to be a very effective cooler, though, with it‘s polished copperplate/heat pipe.

I have some background in mechanical construction (lathe and milling) and most (budget) stock coolers are plain rubbish from that pov. It‘s all about contact of 2 surfaces that have to be as plain and even as possible.
For reference I often (ab)use a prism from a broken binocular. With fluid between metal and glass surfaces interference will tell a lot about surface match.
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valis
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by valis »

I agree, I have lapped my coolers since the 486 era since the stock ones work very well once you do. It wasn't until about 10 years ago that it even became an issue with most boxes to need additional coolers. Prior to the P4 era that was exclusively for OC'ing and Xeons/duallies (and at the top largely just Slot1/2 vs. a few celery coolers).

Anyway, you're welcome to make use of whatever info just as with any other stuff on these forums. I will admit I've had that P4-m lying around myself because I once had ideas of doing something similar, it was based on Tualatin rather than netburst arch. on the mobile side up through most of the p4 lifespan performed quite adequately at much lower voltages & thermal output. Of course in this era any i3 will trounce it, but I get the appeal of building a legacy machine.

I still run my Scope PCI cards in a P4 Xeon, and I suspect your performance will be similar. The only gain I'd see for Scope PCi over my P4 system would be in the redraw speed of device UI's under scope... and maybe some extra VST/VSTi hosting oomph, so I've been lingering for years.
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by dante »

astroman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:49 am I‘ll add a Yamaha SW60XG to run XG-Gold... and of course 3 Scope cards to receive those 6 analog channels from the SID and XG.
Running XG-Gold on my Win10 HP laptop here. Works well when I want the QS300 sounds.
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astroman
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

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The SW60XG and XG-Gold were a piece of cake... immediate success, while the HardSid turned out to be a lemon. :-?
(I can only pray the 4 chips are still ok, there’s a repair trace on the card that I couldn‘t male sense of)
Will use a Teensy (Arduino) as test environment once it arrives.
(someone designed a minimal interface and a piece software to address the SID)

The motherboard is of course not the definitive Scope host, with just 7 reliable Masterverbs.
It was an interesting experience, though: in lack of vcore access in bios I bent one of the voltage selection pins and vcore dropped (as expected) from 1.66V to 1.2V, idle at 34 Celsius and fully engaged 38 (the idle temperature with 1.66V).
But it needs only minimal cpu fan rotation. Really cool... in the true sense of the word. :8

Atm the system is slaved to an Audient ID22’s Adat as clock source and a Luna as PCI master for low latency.
The Luna has it‘s own interupt, but when the „clock Pulsar One“ happened to share with the onboard graphics it was clicking galore.
I‘d rather guess a bad optical cable or some Adat trouble... so it‘s worth checking IRQs if the digital connection misbehaves.

Since one of the Pulsars was heavy solder battered anyway (my 1st attempts to recap back then :oops: ) and the TDM cable had only 2 connectors, I improvised a 3rd one by adding a regular 20pin flat ribbon connector and soldered a counterpart twin row of posts to the board. The twin row fits perfectly and is easy to solder.
The decision was influenced by the local supplier, who used to have the classic connectors, but ran out of stock and I couldn‘t find any parts online. It‘s an ugly alternative, but cheap and omni-present... please forgive me... :D
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Re: Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Post by dante »

As long as it works. You have a classic Scope system with Hans-​Joachim Stulgies masterpiece on board.
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