PHASE

[tgstgs]

8 SAMPLE delay

edited to get not missinterpreted
------------
sorry short in time
and i do not want to fill the server;

good vibes

[tgstgs]

and PLEASE let me add

independant from samplerate / bitdepth and taste

good vibes

[Warp69]

and PLEASE let me add

independant from samplerate / bitdepth and taste

good vibes

Independent from samplerate?

[dante]

Interesting. 5 samples at 11khz would be 4 times the delay timewise than 5 samples at 44khz wouldnt it ?

[tgstgs]

YES,

you are right;
if talking about basics i should start with the term samplerate;

its true divisions of SR will have a different value depending on SR;
but its the same effect no?
and the topic is about phase remember?
-------
these where FeedForward structs only so far_
im sure your FeedBack will have more Resonance;

now who if not you is the one telling us where to use such effects positive?

do we get some positive vibes from denmark?

[dante]

So does this mean that a 1 sample delay at 96khz would be less of a bad phase than a 1 sample delay at 44khz ?

Or are they both just a bad phase ?

Lets say we have a project loaded on XITE that has some barely audible phase issue at 44khz. Would it be less noticeable running the same project at 96khz ?

[at0m]

So does this mean that a 1 sample delay at 96khz would be less of a bad phase than a 1 sample delay at 44khz ?

Or are they both just a bad phase ?

Lets say we have a project loaded on XITE that has some barely audible phase issue at 44khz. Would it be less noticeable running the same project at 96khz ?

Sure, if it stays at one sample, the most affected frequencies are way up in the ultrasonic.
(And for both, phasefix.dev has the solution.)

Here's a simple test you can do for yourself: split a mono track (a simple noise module will do the trick), send one end through phasefix or flexor's sample delay, to manually screw the phase, then add or mix both 'dry' and delayed stream again (using phasefix, an adder or mixer) and monitor the result, and repeat all this for different samplerates...

[tgstgs]

there is no good and bad;
there are just effects;
you may use or be used_


have a nice weekend to all vibes

[dante]

I guess what I'm wondering is, these DSP's on this diagram that have the 7 sample delay - would that become 14 sample delay at 96khz ? Or stay the same at 7 samples ?

xite phase

Xitephase.jpg (73.56 KiB) Viewed 2877 times

[at0m]

Dante, haven't tested since I have no Xite here, but these samples are buffers inherent to the design. Each chip would take so many cycles to process, regardless of the samplerate.

[astroman]

the important point that changed from the previous implementation is that the processing delay (as at0m says, a natural matter of fact) ist defined and documented.
On a Scope card you had to make your own measurements, but probably more important:
the delay wasn't constant.
A mixer channel might add up to 3 samples for no obvious reason.
Mostly that's not a showstopper, but on a carefully adjusted drum kit it might well drive you nuts, if the channels 'move' from session to session.
Not that they regularily did (let alone often), but it could happen.
Inside setups of the Modular Synth that's also very critical - probably the first instance where the effect was discussed.
On the other hand on a background synth pad or rhythm guitar it doesn't really matter.
That was my original point:
one should know about the caveats, and be careful with critical signals (channels), but under no circumstances stay away from recording just because the setup might not be mathematically perfect up to the 28th bit

cheers, Tom

[dante]

Ok, so the conclusions I draw from this are :

1) Upping the sample rate on XITE to 96khz may reduce the audible artifacts of the inter-DSP delays (notwithstanding loaded device delays on top of this though). And by this I mean the ones not already dealt with by the developer or phasefix etc.

2) These phase issues potentially affect transients (percussion) more than sustained materials.

[astroman]

2) These phase issues potentially affect transients (percussion) more than sustained materials.

I'm not sure if someone else mentioned it, too...
but if that conclusion refers to my statement about (seemingly) 'exponential transients', it has nothing to do with the topic.
I have absolutely no idea about the true source, it's a VST related thing that affects some devices, others not.
But under no circumstances it happened in the DSP (hardware) domain, it's a native thing.

cheers, Tom

[astroman]

Phasefix is convenient to compensate at any arbitrary position in the signal chain (in case that's needed)
But the 2448 (and similiar) Mixer has this for ages:
there's a 'delay' button and a dial to enter the number of samples in the channel view.
If you go outboard and back in (and possibly VST processing) you may need an additional millisecond delay for rough tuning

cheers, Tom

[Warp69]

do we get some positive vibes from denmark?

Absolutely! Always positive vibes from snowy Denmark.

Christmas is my favorite time of the year.

[spacef]

it's funny there is no boost of the bass spectrum ?

Is the sound seen on spectrum doubled with the original ?
i suppose so otherwise it can't phase,
but if I add 1 feedback module in scope to create a 1 sample delay and mix this channel with the original, then i also have very hearable bass boost, those bass frequencies are more or less present dpending on the number of feedback module used (ie, the number of samples in the delayed channel) and actually much more hearable (ie without measuring instruments) than the comb effect for example, but i don't see this clearly on the pics or may be i am not concentrated enough. i talk just about scope here, mono signals from oscillators for example. may be it is bass created by room acoustics/reflections, ie not in the file? possibly a impression of bass boost due to cutoff highs... i haven't checked.


for musick makers only: (not engineers, not developpers/device makers because for them, it is a crucial issue so artists can forget about it whenever possible).
It is often easier to fix phase in the sequencer by moving samples around, it makes the project in the daw phase fixed itself, instead of having a project phase fixed "live" in another interface. Because that way, when you export tracks for another DAW like prottols or whetever else - which might happen if you intend to release something in the music market - , then the project tracks are aligned, and then it is the problem of each audio interface that add or don't add micro delays. let the engineers be responsible for their own equipement and sound results, you as musician or music maker should concentrate and work on your art and after that get into technicities if you feel you have problems because of this (i never met a producer or label that say something about phase, they like it or not based on very different criterias, but engineers will have to take time to look into this). The msucians should think about it, especially when the sound is not the one he wanted to record (like "uh, what happened to this preset after recording??," then yes, insuch situation, there is a serious phase problem to take care of at prodcution level. 7 sample is a very big delay if they are not aligned somewhere in the process, it is the delay i've used in a certain oscillator to create a totally different spectrum. it is clearly phasing when summed with the original source. 1 sample might be acceptable if it doesn't change the sound (i don't talk about recording several mics because this is not my field at all, i am into digital electronic music ony).

totally phase fixed is good, but not necessarily the best ARTISTIC approach for everyone, even if i know technicians will choke on that one (just drink a glass of water and prepare a bottle before reading the rest of that post
what is more crucial, is mono/stereo compatibility of your track as a stereo mix, because that way, it can be used in one of the latest popular emerging media: iphone speaker lol
but mono uncompatibility might come from an unaligned single track too that may disapear or sound very different for this or that reason. Slight DC offset can have more effect on sound than a tiny phase.
phase is also a component of 3D sound on stereo speakers, and mastering studios hate this when they see it as a uncompatibility for mono sum and that was a sound enginneer who actually played with phase to make voices and small fx seem to come from somewhere else from the speakers. Excellent job he did. MAstering studio went crazy but you know, you can tell them, no it doesn't matetr, i want this sound to be 3d on the stereo mix and too bad for the mono mix and mp3s. it is an artistic view and policy. let's make tracks that are all phased out, may be it is next fashion (lol ). I remeber a certain live of a famous band, where you could not hear half of the instruments when you were in the very center of the room.... bad speakers or bad engineer who forgot to check room acoustics and things like that... good musicians and good tracks, but that's is a serious issue when you are the one listening at the center of the room.

device makers might have to activate the attribute to load "on same dsp" as this might force the plugin to load on a single dsp, ie, making its several channels aligned (in theory at least). I don't think much more can be done at development stage except include micro delays modules inside the device for users that will have to enter the correct values for this or that channel (unless it is a constant, which can be determined in advance, and as such , may not require user's intervention).

the subject is very vast, and the art vs technic is an even more flamable field. Ok I know a lot of people hate me now, but it doesn't really matter because it is about an artistic approach (unless you are sexy feminine gender, then i would be sad and would be ok to do an effort on phase at an artistic level if you ask persuasively).

My very point - for music makers - is that a bad track or poorly creative song/mix will remain the same with or without phase, and a good track will be good even with phase problems, of course, it is better that it sounds as you wish it to sound. thats' why i say musik maker should concentrate on their art because that will not play a big role in a musician/composer carreer is that's what is at stake for you. if the trafck is very good, they might ask you for the bounces and give it to a studio for these kind of issues, even nowadays in music industry crisis, it is still possible and common (but didn't happened to me).

I have a track that is probably gonna be released in 2011 i don't know when. After signing, I went to mix it back, because i felt there were phase issues and whetever i did on a technical level, made the track less interesting than the way i made it at first (ie without looking into any of those technical things that i decided to forget once i went back to music making, especially because i had no time to dwelve into this). It was better before, not only for me, but also to my partner in this project who is not at all a musician or sound engineer, but has good tastes.. "uh what happened to the track, it sounds weird now" "yes you are right it sounds different, and i also liked it better before ,let's go back to the original"..the new mix was perfectly aligned everywhere.. and perfectly dull compared to the original and quickly made mix... So i decided to go back, and so far, noone ever said anything negative about the production of the track or its sound quality (on the contrary!).
I do know it is not top notch production, it was made in my bedroom studio (what can i expect from that!), i am sure there are lots of phase issues on voices due to weird stereo effects of mine, but i wanted to have some fun and keep it close to the way it came out...I also know it has been signed like that and will be released "as is" for good or worse (and i hope for your support so i can finally buy an xite-1 !!!!!!. .. i have no idea when it is released though, so let's keep in touch, may be you will hate this track, everything is possible except shame on my part) . The mastering studio will say "oh, you have phase issues here and there", i will answer "yes, but it doesn't matter anymore now, and i think it sounds better like that, please do the mastering for me as is, or please go negotiate with the producer the funds for me to take care of this" . he will smile or cry (probably smile), but will do the mastering... listeners will not like or dislike the track based on phase issues, because the yare not very obvious, and in any case, too bad, the way it is now is the way i like it, and the way it will remain , for the very only reason that i like it that way... the sound and balance will be destroyed by the headphones of the listener anyway (i don't know if you went to check headphones nowadays, .... it is crazy how the same song sounds good or muddy or even slightly chorused with this or that headphone or each user "preset"... and that were it's going to end in most cases...and i listened to top-notch productions, blockbuster quality by international megastars... sounded like sh*t on some headphone, nothing you can do about that). There have been two years in my life where i could not listen to music without thinking "oh that's a saw oscillator and such filter, oh, the compressor here has a nice attack...wrong... nothing good came out of my musical attempts during that period. interssting stuff sound wise, but nothing valuable artistically.
Later, if i am really into making tracks professionally full time, whihc is not the case, then i will have the time to take care about this kind of things - like i do when i do devices (oh, yes, i promiss that i try the best i can once i learned how it could work in scope) - and will read stuff because i will have the time to drive the production from a to z . etc.. for the moment, it is not needed !!! may be even not wanted due to time issues (i also have an interesting experience in mixing with professionals when i was really a beginner and could not say what is a compressor , so may be it is my experience that makes me give those advices to music makers). In fact,when I think aboutit, theonly tracks of mine that have been signed, were the ones that would make a pro engineer crazy sound wise.. it is true..but it was always stuff that was done with sincerity in the artistic approach, and that's what people will hear before anything else. I will certainly not get a grammy for my sound, a lot of pro engineers will regret it happened, but this is not the problem, i prefer to try to put out things that come from the soul and mind and keep an emotion just like if it was a demo track recorded in a garage, and then i do what i can to make the sound better.. I hope you get this important point "if you think technicities will stop you from reaching your objectives as an artist, you might be on the wrong path as a musician and loose a lot of time". Of course, there are extremes (if your equipment is not good or else, it happens of course) and knowing about technics is always good, but not as crucial as you might think. I hope it helps some people bypass the fear they might have when doing this or that "out of the rules". It is your soul and sincerity that is perceived in an artistic point of view. As I say, always... remember... to have fun and take pleasure, this will probably be one of the most appreciated quality of your compositions.... it is also my religion by the way it is just pop songs after all, nothing that will revolutionize the world, just trying to bring moments of pleasure to few people who will like the track (like all of us try to do?)... and don't take it wrong, it doesn't mean you should do "anything" , you must try to reach a certain standard for the audience, but not at the expense of the feelings in your track .. i hope....

sincere natural vibes and smiles from snowed and phasing musical PVrVs

[pollux]

it's funny there is no boost of the bass spectrum ?

Is the sound seen on spectrum doubled with the original ?
i suppose so otherwise it can't phase,
but if I add 1 feedback module in scope to create a 1 sample delay and mix this channel with the original, then i also have very hearable bass boost, those bass frequencies are more or less present dpending on the number of feedback module used (ie, the number of samples in the delayed channel) and actually much more hearable (ie without measuring instruments) than the comb effect for example, but i don't see this clearly on the pics or may be i am not concentrated enough. i talk just about scope here, mono signals from oscillators for example. may be it is bass created by room acoustics/reflections, ie not in the file? possibly a impression of bass boost due to cutoff highs... i haven't checked.


for musick makers only: (not engineers, not developpers/device makers because for them, it is a crucial issue so artists can forget about it whenever possible).
It is often easier to fix phase in the sequencer by moving samples around, it makes the project in the daw phase fixed itself, instead of having a project phase fixed "live" in another interface. Because that way, when you export tracks for another DAW like prottols or whetever else - which might happen if you intend to release something in the music market - , then the project tracks are aligned, and then it is the problem of each audio interface that add or don't add micro delays. let the engineers be responsible for their own equipement and sound results, you as musician or music maker should concentrate and work on your art and after that get into technicities if you feel you have problems because of this (i never met a producer or label that say something about phase, they like it or not based on very different criterias, but engineers will have to take time to look into this). The msucians should think about it, especially when the sound is not the one he wanted to record (like "uh, what happened to this preset after recording??," then yes, insuch situation, there is a serious phase problem to take care of at prodcution level. 7 sample is a very big delay if they are not aligned somewhere in the process, it is the delay i've used in a certain oscillator to create a totally different spectrum. it is clearly phasing when summed with the original source. 1 sample might be acceptable if it doesn't change the sound (i don't talk about recording several mics because this is not my field at all, i am into digital electronic music ony).

totally phase fixed is good, but not necessarily the best ARTISTIC approach for everyone, even if i know technicians will choke on that one (just drink a glass of water and prepare a bottle before reading the rest of that post
what is more crucial, is mono/stereo compatibility of your track as a stereo mix, because that way, it can be used in one of the latest popular emerging media: iphone speaker lol
but mono uncompatibility might come from an unaligned single track too that may disapear or sound very different for this or that reason. Slight DC offset can have more effect on sound than a tiny phase.
phase is also a component of 3D sound on stereo speakers, and mastering studios hate this when they see it as a uncompatibility for mono sum and that was a sound enginneer who actually played with phase to make voices and small fx seem to come from somewhere else from the speakers. Excellent job he did. MAstering studio went crazy but you know, you can tell them, no it doesn't matetr, i want this sound to be 3d on the stereo mix and too bad for the mono mix and mp3s. it is an artistic view and policy. let's make tracks that are all phased out, may be it is next fashion (lol ). I remeber a certain live of a famous band, where you could not hear half of the instruments when you were in the very center of the room.... bad speakers or bad engineer who forgot to check room acoustics and things like that... good musicians and good tracks, but that's is a serious issue when you are the one listening at the center of the room.

device makers might have to activate the attribute to load "on same dsp" as this might force the plugin to load on a single dsp, ie, making its several channels aligned (in theory at least). I don't think much more can be done at development stage except include micro delays modules inside the device for users that will have to enter the correct values for this or that channel (unless it is a constant, which can be determined in advance, and as such , may not require user's intervention).

the subject is very vast, and the art vs technic is an even more flamable field. Ok I know a lot of people hate me now, but it doesn't really matter because it is about an artistic approach (unless you are sexy feminine gender, then i would be sad and would be ok to do an effort on phase at an artistic level if you ask persuasively).

My very point - for music makers - is that a bad track or poorly creative song/mix will remain the same with or without phase, and a good track will be good even with phase problems, of course, it is better that it sounds as you wish it to sound. thats' why i say musik maker should concentrate on their art because that will not play a big role in a musician/composer carreer is that's what is at stake for you. if the trafck is very good, they might ask you for the bounces and give it to a studio for these kind of issues, even nowadays in music industry crisis, it is still possible and common (but didn't happened to me).

I have a track that is probably gonna be released in 2011 i don't know when. After signing, I went to mix it back, because i felt there were phase issues and whetever i did on a technical level, made the track less interesting than the way i made it at first (ie without looking into any of those technical things that i decided to forget once i went back to music making, especially because i had no time to dwelve into this). It was better before, not only for me, but also to my partner in this project who is not at all a musician or sound engineer, but has good tastes.. "uh what happened to the track, it sounds weird now" "yes you are right it sounds different, and i also liked it better before ,let's go back to the original"..the new mix was perfectly aligned everywhere.. and perfectly dull compared to the original and quickly made mix... So i decided to go back, and so far, noone ever said anything negative about the production of the track or its sound quality (on the contrary!).
I do know it is not top notch production, it was made in my bedroom studio (what can i expect from that!), i am sure there are lots of phase issues on voices due to weird stereo effects of mine, but i wanted to have some fun and keep it close to the way it came out...I also know it has been signed like that and will be released "as is" for good or worse (and i hope for your support so i can finally buy an xite-1 !!!!!!. .. i have no idea when it is released though, so let's keep in touch, may be you will hate this track, everything is possible except shame on my part) . The mastering studio will say "oh, you have phase issues here and there", i will answer "yes, but it doesn't matter anymore now, and i think it sounds better like that, please do the mastering for me as is, or please go negotiate with the producer the funds for me to take care of this" . he will smile or cry (probably smile), but will do the mastering... listeners will not like or dislike the track based on phase issues, because the yare not very obvious, and in any case, too bad, the way it is now is the way i like it, and the way it will remain , for the very only reason that i like it that way... the sound and balance will be destroyed by the headphones of the listener anyway (i don't know if you went to check headphones nowadays, .... it is crazy how the same song sounds good or muddy or even slightly chorused with this or that headphone or each user "preset"... and that were it's going to end in most cases...and i listened to top-notch productions, blockbuster quality by international megastars... sounded like sh*t on some headphone, nothing you can do about that). There have been two years in my life where i could not listen to music without thinking "oh that's a saw oscillator and such filter, oh, the compressor here has a nice attack...wrong... nothing good came out of my musical attempts during that period. interssting stuff sound wise, but nothing valuable artistically.
Later, if i am really into making tracks professionally full time, whihc is not the case, then i will have the time to take care about this kind of things - like i do when i do devices (oh, yes, i promiss that i try the best i can once i learned how it could work in scope) - and will read stuff because i will have the time to drive the production from a to z . etc.. for the moment, it is not needed !!! may be even not wanted due to time issues (i also have an interesting experience in mixing with professionals when i was really a beginner and could not say what is a compressor , so may be it is my experience that makes me give those advices to music makers). In fact,when I think aboutit, theonly tracks of mine that have been signed, were the ones that would make a pro engineer crazy sound wise.. it is true..but it was always stuff that was done with sincerity in the artistic approach, and that's what people will hear before anything else. I will certainly not get a grammy for my sound, a lot of pro engineers will regret it happened, but this is not the problem, i prefer to try to put out things that come from the soul and mind and keep an emotion just like if it was a demo track recorded in a garage, and then i do what i can to make the sound better.. I hope you get this important point "if you think technicities will stop you from reaching your objectives as an artist, you might be on the wrong path as a musician and loose a lot of time". Of course, there are extremes (if your equipment is not good or else, it happens of course) and knowing about technics is always good, but not as crucial as you might think. I hope it helps some people bypass the fear they might have when doing this or that "out of the rules". It is your soul and sincerity that is perceived in an artistic point of view. As I say, always... remember... to have fun and take pleasure, this will probably be one of the most appreciated quality of your compositions.... it is also my religion by the way it is just pop songs after all, nothing that will revolutionize the world, just trying to bring moments of pleasure to few people who will like the track (like all of us try to do?)... and don't take it wrong, it doesn't mean you should do "anything" , you must try to reach a certain standard for the audience, but not at the expense of the feelings in your track .. i hope....

sincere natural vibes and smiles from snowed and phasing musical PVrVs

hearing this kind of crap from one of the usual trolls wouldn't bother that much.. but come on.. you are a professional plugin developper.................. be serious, please.

[spacef]

no i don't think i am... and i agree there's a lot of crap and now that you cited it i can not make it temporary, it is fixed for ever so it doubles the dose...

[pollux]

no i don't think i am... and i agree there's a lot of crap and now that you cited it i can not make it temporary, it is fixed for ever so it doubles the dose...

it depends on how much you can pay

[spacef]

i'll tell you that next year