Is there a way around having these in Delays, and Reverbs?
It is the only flaw which I consider to be a big one with our software.
I would love to hear a reverb which could tap the power of a 3 card DAW, and be able to respond to MIDI CC's w/o all of those crappy artifacts.
Sure it ain't necessary to have, but I often change the size, diffusion, and decay times live, as they are fun to change the sound of your comps, versus your solos, etc. Crank up the mix level on a fading drum kit simultaneously.
Too bad that this can't be corrected,...................Or Can It?
Peace,
DSP Zippers
-
hubird
Why do my 2 x DSP hardware Lexicons respond flawlessley, when my 36 x DSP DAW sounds like a cassette tape exploding?
Imagine having a Pro card for reverb processing compared to 2 little Motorola's that Lexicon used.
NVidia was messing around with this idea a few years ago using the power of the Graphics cards processors, but I never heard about it again.
I like the sound that Warp, and DAS have achieved with their DSP reverbs, and could actually use them for static rooms / halls and change the ER's on my hardware units, but then there's that nasty PCI oversaturation thing.
I'm just amazed that Scope can do so many things, but still can't beat a 2 chip hardware unit.
I am however grateful for everything else that Scope does, which in many cases outdoes hardware.
I am just baffled why this can't be done.
I suppose that UAD, and PoCo suffer the same fate?
I remember years back we were using a Pro Tools Mac w/ Lexicons NuVerb. The engineer was shaking his head and I asked him what's the problem? He says the reverb sounds like shit. So since we could master on the Neve I unscrewed my PCM70 and the difference was like night and day.
Maybe with new cards and a new PCO 2.0 standard someone in Germany might hear our cries and break out the Black Fin's and punish mankind with it.
Imagine having a Pro card for reverb processing compared to 2 little Motorola's that Lexicon used.
NVidia was messing around with this idea a few years ago using the power of the Graphics cards processors, but I never heard about it again.
I like the sound that Warp, and DAS have achieved with their DSP reverbs, and could actually use them for static rooms / halls and change the ER's on my hardware units, but then there's that nasty PCI oversaturation thing.
I'm just amazed that Scope can do so many things, but still can't beat a 2 chip hardware unit.
I am however grateful for everything else that Scope does, which in many cases outdoes hardware.
I am just baffled why this can't be done.
I suppose that UAD, and PoCo suffer the same fate?
I remember years back we were using a Pro Tools Mac w/ Lexicons NuVerb. The engineer was shaking his head and I asked him what's the problem? He says the reverb sounds like shit. So since we could master on the Neve I unscrewed my PCM70 and the difference was like night and day.
Maybe with new cards and a new PCO 2.0 standard someone in Germany might hear our cries and break out the Black Fin's and punish mankind with it.
Jimmy, this isn't related to processing power at all.
Reverbs use buffers and it's impossible to immediately replace all 'non-matching' values on a heavy parameter change - even more as in Scope (at least a part of) the data has to be transferred over a bus system.
The control of your 2 Motorola Lexicon thingy has a more 'direct' access to the hardware (it's machine programmed), so they can do a mute-modify-activate-loop on parameter changes.
cheers, Tom
Reverbs use buffers and it's impossible to immediately replace all 'non-matching' values on a heavy parameter change - even more as in Scope (at least a part of) the data has to be transferred over a bus system.
The control of your 2 Motorola Lexicon thingy has a more 'direct' access to the hardware (it's machine programmed), so they can do a mute-modify-activate-loop on parameter changes.
cheers, Tom
can they dispose of (or adjust/cross-fade) existing buffer-content in such a situation ?Shroomz II wrote:The dsp-based delays available to Scope developers already have output muting on delay time parameter changes implemented, but it doesn't make them zipper free, it only reduces/alters the zipper noise.
(I may be completely on the wrong track, as I have no idea how that stuff is implemented....)
cheers, Tom
if mute /modify/ unmute you change the probl. but still hear noise;
more clicking noise;
to dont click you must implement a algo running within 2 samples each sample
try to loop a complex wave clickfree and you know what im talking;
----------
what you hear are steps in the wave;
imaging a stair you run down with one step being higher than the other-> you fall!
--
dont talk of scope inside but in c there are many ways to compensate;
fe. search the highest step you may take without to fall (hear) -> restrict to this;
now no steps higher are possiblke = lower reacting time!
---
if not possible to change steps (fix raster) lower the range to fit in this raster;
--
if oversampling is possible you can make a variable raster fe. 1 high step other low to be faster in reaction;
in 96kHz = sampling frequency/2 = non hearable!
--------
so its all possible !!!
its up to the developer to decide if he puts as much developing time in one fader than in the rest of the device!
-----
have to add that HW units are much easyer to do ;-> one fader or poti;
in digital spezialy scope flexibility your able to control with textDisplay fader poti keyboard mouse mouseweel midicontroller of all imaginable companies SW controller . . . .
better to do 1 methode for all which satisfies 99% of the needs;
and add 1 spezial methode if needed for the one who needs!
===========
hope it helps the developers to improof their devices;
even the non sharing know how ones
================
good vibes from vienna
more clicking noise;
to dont click you must implement a algo running within 2 samples each sample
try to loop a complex wave clickfree and you know what im talking;
----------
what you hear are steps in the wave;
imaging a stair you run down with one step being higher than the other-> you fall!
--
dont talk of scope inside but in c there are many ways to compensate;
fe. search the highest step you may take without to fall (hear) -> restrict to this;
now no steps higher are possiblke = lower reacting time!
---
if not possible to change steps (fix raster) lower the range to fit in this raster;
--
if oversampling is possible you can make a variable raster fe. 1 high step other low to be faster in reaction;
in 96kHz = sampling frequency/2 = non hearable!
--------
so its all possible !!!
its up to the developer to decide if he puts as much developing time in one fader than in the rest of the device!
-----
have to add that HW units are much easyer to do ;-> one fader or poti;
in digital spezialy scope flexibility your able to control with textDisplay fader poti keyboard mouse mouseweel midicontroller of all imaginable companies SW controller . . . .
better to do 1 methode for all which satisfies 99% of the needs;
and add 1 spezial methode if needed for the one who needs!
===========
hope it helps the developers to improof their devices;
even the non sharing know how ones
================
good vibes from vienna
We only have basic/limited information (if any in many cases) on the atoms & modules available, but I know there are plenty of different types of low-level delay algos available to scope devs. Some are dsp delays (0 sample min delay time), some are PC delays (190 sample min delay time), some are combo dsp & PC delays, some are modulation orientated delays which are designed for chorus & flange FX, some are already internally interpolated with Float-based algos. It's how these atoms or modules get put to use the makes a difference. That's just an opinion though.astroman wrote:can they dispose of (or adjust/cross-fade) existing buffer-content in such a situation ? (I may be completely on the wrong track, as I have no idea how that stuff is implemented....)
cheers, Tom
Well maybe there's hope then.
I would love to see someone make a reverb w/o zippers.
Do the UAD PoCo guys have the same trouble?
I get a kick out of hearing people rave about how DSP reverbs, and IR's are better than hardware. I don't care what picture they show alongside of their " emu ", it cannot function, or sound as well as hardware IMO.
I bet the guy who bought my Lexicon 200 for a hundred bucks is in hog heaven right now. As he understood exactly what I was talking about.
These things don't matter much when recording a track at a time, and mastering with one ambience, but I often use 8 - 12 different ambiences when recording as I lack the proper rooms, so I will re create them w/ a hardware reverb. Hell I have even heard guys sing and record in their bathtub !! Ambience is a very important part of recording, and yes changing the size of the room, decay, or mix levels in real time is important IMO.
Remember that ancient Emerson, Lake and Palmer song Lucky Man ? If so, think back to the end of the song where the engineer changed the mix and decay levels simultaneously on the ancient but fierce AMS reverb unit, that made Greg Lake's drums seem if he was fading away in the distance. This was done 30+ years ago !! And they pulled that trick off LIVE in '72 when I stared in amazement at my idols. I was too young to understand that the engineer was top shelf. He even had Palmers solo flanged, and phased live also. I have never forgotten that show.
I will just keep on recording and performing w/ hardware until some brave guy goes all out and does this for all of us. Even if the device costs 1000 bucks, I want it. For we know that we could use a few of these simultaneously for a truly awesome recording experience. Between my two Lexicons, and some GigaPulse ER's, I can get most of what I want in real time, but with a zipper free DSP reverb, I could perform with true studio quality tricks nightly.
I Await Our Savior.
I would love to see someone make a reverb w/o zippers.
Do the UAD PoCo guys have the same trouble?
I get a kick out of hearing people rave about how DSP reverbs, and IR's are better than hardware. I don't care what picture they show alongside of their " emu ", it cannot function, or sound as well as hardware IMO.
I bet the guy who bought my Lexicon 200 for a hundred bucks is in hog heaven right now. As he understood exactly what I was talking about.
These things don't matter much when recording a track at a time, and mastering with one ambience, but I often use 8 - 12 different ambiences when recording as I lack the proper rooms, so I will re create them w/ a hardware reverb. Hell I have even heard guys sing and record in their bathtub !! Ambience is a very important part of recording, and yes changing the size of the room, decay, or mix levels in real time is important IMO.
Remember that ancient Emerson, Lake and Palmer song Lucky Man ? If so, think back to the end of the song where the engineer changed the mix and decay levels simultaneously on the ancient but fierce AMS reverb unit, that made Greg Lake's drums seem if he was fading away in the distance. This was done 30+ years ago !! And they pulled that trick off LIVE in '72 when I stared in amazement at my idols. I was too young to understand that the engineer was top shelf. He even had Palmers solo flanged, and phased live also. I have never forgotten that show.
I will just keep on recording and performing w/ hardware until some brave guy goes all out and does this for all of us. Even if the device costs 1000 bucks, I want it. For we know that we could use a few of these simultaneously for a truly awesome recording experience. Between my two Lexicons, and some GigaPulse ER's, I can get most of what I want in real time, but with a zipper free DSP reverb, I could perform with true studio quality tricks nightly.
I Await Our Savior.
had a bit time to do a test with masterverb, and im unable to redo!
---------
so i wonder if only happens in vegas whats tested in vegas
---------
do you have same probl. with masterverb???
only noise i was able to produce was playing with ER settings!
but has nothing to do with zippering!!!!
----
in this case only cure would be a algo between samples each sample!
checking the steps!
i made a c++ methode long time ago this for, so im very sure its possible to do in scope too;
developers should search on clickfree looping algos!
good luck and good vibes from vienna
---------
so i wonder if only happens in vegas whats tested in vegas
---------
do you have same probl. with masterverb???
only noise i was able to produce was playing with ER settings!
but has nothing to do with zippering!!!!
----
in this case only cure would be a algo between samples each sample!
checking the steps!
i made a c++ methode long time ago this for, so im very sure its possible to do in scope too;
developers should search on clickfree looping algos!
good luck and good vibes from vienna
Sounds like a job for one of the big 3rd party guys.
I was going to comment about Masterverbs ability to do a better job, but it's sound compared to Warp's or DAS's RMX160 pales in comparison. And actually if one can tame the ER's of the algorithm, the rest is academic.
In my experiences with hardware units, you always check out the ambience's, and Early Reflections first, as Halls and Rooms, etc. are much easier to achieve. The cheap Lexicons have great sounding halls like their big brothers of the PCM series. But small spaces and ambiences must require more DSP and superior algorithms. The TC Electronics M4000 is a really good ER unit, and very realistic sounding. Lexicons are actually not the most realistic, but the way they add no color to a sound but surround it w/ character is what makes them so desirable. They work great on sampled content, but for vocals, they excell. Especially the dual algo's where ER's are plentiful.
I was experimenting with my weak and wretchid voice through the A16 and a mic pre. I had a great vocal effect going w/ the dual algo's. I then attached DAS's SL9000 w/ it's marvelous gate, and one instance of the SSB Modulator and was shocked at the quality of the effect. Even my worthless ( but accurately pitched VX ) sounded great.
I also noticed that the AES / EBU I/O's of my card where the PCM91 and 81 get routed sounds so clear and precise. I never realised that the SP/DIF I/O's were inferior unitl then.
It's true about the dollar. A thousand dollars here now is easier to achieve. Our property value skyrocketed under G. Bush, and now that the Dems look to win the upcoming election, the people with money are finding shelters in preparation for the Dem's " Social Programs ". They always seem to get the vote by claiming to go after the rich guys ". Actually, it's the middle class working men and women who get hit. Americas middle class always foots the bills for both parties as the rich have good lawyers, and ample time to hide their funds. Nothing will change, except the rhetoric. But count on our economy slowing down while the EU's gets a big and needed boost. Good. Maybe then we will see Black Fins after all.
Thanks for your response tgstgs, I had no idea you were so well versed in C++ language. I should have known that a guy who admired my fallen hero as much as I, had knowledge and taste.
Strength And Honor,
I was going to comment about Masterverbs ability to do a better job, but it's sound compared to Warp's or DAS's RMX160 pales in comparison. And actually if one can tame the ER's of the algorithm, the rest is academic.
In my experiences with hardware units, you always check out the ambience's, and Early Reflections first, as Halls and Rooms, etc. are much easier to achieve. The cheap Lexicons have great sounding halls like their big brothers of the PCM series. But small spaces and ambiences must require more DSP and superior algorithms. The TC Electronics M4000 is a really good ER unit, and very realistic sounding. Lexicons are actually not the most realistic, but the way they add no color to a sound but surround it w/ character is what makes them so desirable. They work great on sampled content, but for vocals, they excell. Especially the dual algo's where ER's are plentiful.
I was experimenting with my weak and wretchid voice through the A16 and a mic pre. I had a great vocal effect going w/ the dual algo's. I then attached DAS's SL9000 w/ it's marvelous gate, and one instance of the SSB Modulator and was shocked at the quality of the effect. Even my worthless ( but accurately pitched VX ) sounded great.
I also noticed that the AES / EBU I/O's of my card where the PCM91 and 81 get routed sounds so clear and precise. I never realised that the SP/DIF I/O's were inferior unitl then.
It's true about the dollar. A thousand dollars here now is easier to achieve. Our property value skyrocketed under G. Bush, and now that the Dems look to win the upcoming election, the people with money are finding shelters in preparation for the Dem's " Social Programs ". They always seem to get the vote by claiming to go after the rich guys ". Actually, it's the middle class working men and women who get hit. Americas middle class always foots the bills for both parties as the rich have good lawyers, and ample time to hide their funds. Nothing will change, except the rhetoric. But count on our economy slowing down while the EU's gets a big and needed boost. Good. Maybe then we will see Black Fins after all.
Thanks for your response tgstgs, I had no idea you were so well versed in C++ language. I should have known that a guy who admired my fallen hero as much as I, had knowledge and taste.
Strength And Honor,
He still comes around the forum quite often. At least I see his name at the bottom of the screen as being logged in now & again. Hopefully it's people contacting him via PM to ask about purchasing his reverbs.
Hey, has anyone ever built a surround reverb for Scope? I can't seem to remember such a device, but it might just be my memory chip corroding.
Hey, has anyone ever built a surround reverb for Scope? I can't seem to remember such a device, but it might just be my memory chip corroding.
I would love to see that !
I have a psuedo 5.1 array I am trying out right now w/ 4 Barbettas, a stereo sub, and the rotary cabinet trying different combinations.
I am shocked at how well the MIDI Tremolo can throw the sound around in the STM1632S. I am trying to use the dual algo's of both the PCM91, and 81 this sounds really awesome so far. Since I doing a Psychedelic thing, it seemed appropriate.
How would that be applied in SFP? Or are my hardware verbs better suited?
I am trying to match the cabinets sounds as I am using 2 unmatched pairs. I even broke out an ancient Stereo EQ the Rane PEQ55. It has the proper XLR's and adds alot of control to the older Barbettas. The newer models are so well tuned they require nothing other than their own controls.
I would love to see a surround reverb w/o zippers !! Great Ideas are bouncing.
Thanks Shroomz II ( formerly known as Shroomz )
I have a psuedo 5.1 array I am trying out right now w/ 4 Barbettas, a stereo sub, and the rotary cabinet trying different combinations.
I am shocked at how well the MIDI Tremolo can throw the sound around in the STM1632S. I am trying to use the dual algo's of both the PCM91, and 81 this sounds really awesome so far. Since I doing a Psychedelic thing, it seemed appropriate.
How would that be applied in SFP? Or are my hardware verbs better suited?
I am trying to match the cabinets sounds as I am using 2 unmatched pairs. I even broke out an ancient Stereo EQ the Rane PEQ55. It has the proper XLR's and adds alot of control to the older Barbettas. The newer models are so well tuned they require nothing other than their own controls.
I would love to see a surround reverb w/o zippers !! Great Ideas are bouncing.
Thanks Shroomz II ( formerly known as Shroomz )
Im here!scope4live wrote:WHERE IS WARP69 ?
Since his reverb seems to be the weapon of choice, how good could that be w/o zippers?
I have only heard it once, I did like the sound even though it's application was generically applied on an entire mix. Hardly worth critiqueing.
You can already modify diffusion and reverb time without zippers. But its correct that you'll hear zippers when you change the size - and so does the Lexicon PCM91. Its possible to change that - you'll have to use modulation delaylines, but if you use linear interpolaters you'll get some lowpass filter effect. Only the linear interpolaters are available in Scope, but again - you could easily create 3rd or 5th order lagrange interpolaters in SDK.
Totally offtopic - All those new hardware reverbs are great - Bricasti M7, Quantec 2492/96 and Lexicon PCM96. Maybe its a reverb comeback.
Cheers
I have no zippers in the 91, at least in the algo's I use. Even my ancient PCM70 was zipper free.
I hope you are considering a zipper free creation. I would pay dearly for any R & D costs incurred.
Ask DAS, or SpaceF about me. I would love to use a DSP based reverb w/ muliple instances.
I have spent too much cash on hardware reverbs over the years, and would rather spend it on a DSP creation of yours. I hope you consider this.
I have a good feelin' about this.
Perhaps, the time is now.
I hope you are considering a zipper free creation. I would pay dearly for any R & D costs incurred.
Ask DAS, or SpaceF about me. I would love to use a DSP based reverb w/ muliple instances.
I have spent too much cash on hardware reverbs over the years, and would rather spend it on a DSP creation of yours. I hope you consider this.
I have a good feelin' about this.
Perhaps, the time is now.
Yes, you havescope4live wrote:I have no zippers in the 91, at least in the algo's I use. Even my ancient PCM70 was zipper free.
Please feed the unit with a sine test sound and then change the size on the fly.
Edit: I did for you. Plate algorithm, first preset - changing size from 4.0 m to 39.4 m.
www.relab.dk/test.wav
I dont quite understande what you mean??? Do you mean a reverb with engineA and engineB?scope4live wrote: I would love to use a DSP based reverb w/ muliple instances.
Cheers