voltage problem with 3 cards ?

An area for people to discuss Scope related problems, issues, etc.

Moderators: valis, garyb

Post Reply
Strictly East
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:41 am

voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by Strictly East »

I just acquired a Power Sampler coupled to a Luna and a Pulsar 2.
Having only one PCI slot on my motherboard, I put the cards in a PCIe to 4 PCI expansion box (see picture).
Nothing works, error messages including repeated registrations but no sound, I think it's a problem of insufficient voltage to powered the 3 cards.

Is there anyone who's ever faced this problem before?
Are there more stable solutions in PCI extension?
thank you
Attachments
IMG_20200528_184012_resized_20200528_072137777.jpg
IMG_20200528_184012_resized_20200528_072137777.jpg (442.73 KiB) Viewed 3836 times
IMG_20200528_183948_resized_20200528_072138070.jpg
IMG_20200528_183948_resized_20200528_072138070.jpg (341.41 KiB) Viewed 3836 times
IMG_20200528_183834_resized_20200528_072137003.jpg
IMG_20200528_183834_resized_20200528_072137003.jpg (954.07 KiB) Viewed 3836 times
IMG_20200528_183824_resized_20200528_072137337.jpg
IMG_20200528_183824_resized_20200528_072137337.jpg (902.07 KiB) Viewed 3836 times
nebelfuerst
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:55 am

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by nebelfuerst »

Does it work with just 1 card in the expansion ? With 2 boards ?

Try to replug the STDM-cable or use different connectors on the cable.

You could also use an empty project. This doesn't drain so much power like a fully loaded project.
\\\ *** l 0 v e | X I T E *** ///
User avatar
Bud Weiser
Posts: 2684
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:29 am
Location: nowhere land

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by Bud Weiser »

Most PCIe > PCI expansion chassis don´t work as expected for SCOPE cards.
Possibly a Magma chassis does.

:)

Bud
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by garyb »

not enough power.

expansion boxes suck.
Strictly East
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:41 am

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by Strictly East »

ok thank you all, i'll try to find a motherboard with at least 3 PCI slots, i have a big doubt this motherboard is usually for the server and doesn't have a PCIe slot for graphic cards
If you have a reference to propose or even better a reference for a 1366 socket I will be eternally grateful to you.
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by garyb »

there should be plenty of 1366 motherboards, although you may need to buy a used one.

otherwise, quite a few z87 and even some z97 motherboards had 3 PCI slots.
pranza
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Contact:

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by pranza »

i can confirm that at least Magma 4 slot chassis with PEHIFX PCI-Express Interface Host Card works fine with PCI Scope cards.
look for PCI magma on ebay, they have some crazy deals and the chassis are top notch, made of aluminium and with proper power supplies...

also, if you want i can sell you a mobo with i7 4790 cpu and 24GB ram which has four PCI slots that also work fine with Scope cards, but that'd be close to €500.
Strictly East
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:41 am

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by Strictly East »

Thank you, pranza, is this the kind of chassis you recommend?


For the Mobo, I already have a big config with an I7 970 for which I had to sell a kidney at the time of the purchase ;) all in water cooling but thanks for the proposal.
Attachments
magma.jpg
magma.jpg (77.62 KiB) Viewed 3684 times
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by garyb »

that might work, but cheap expansion boxes generally are not that good.
even a magma box will significantly reduce the PCI capacity.

a new motherboard is quicker and cheaper.
nebelfuerst
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:55 am

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by nebelfuerst »

I own this magma box shown in the picture.. I also own a magma 13pci-slot board.
Both seem to work with scope cards. ( tested with scope 4.5 and pulsar1 and 2 cards. )
I can use a pcie, pci oder expresscard on the pc-side to connect to magma.

But as gary said, the pci-bandwidth is lower compared to a mainboard with pci.
With the famous masterverb-test I got 4 verbs, but I was able to fill all DSPs with synths.
\\\ *** l 0 v e | X I T E *** ///
pdistefano
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:15 pm
Location: Geelong, Australia

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by pdistefano »

ah yes, the old pci bus bandwidth issue....
If you're happy to use Scope environment as a standalone device (ie not interacting with any current day software) the cheapest and easiest option I have found to keep pci cards alive and kicking has been to maintain secondary/supporting offline older PC's ( windows XP). You also get the added benefit of more screen real-estate and separation and avoid the headaches of trying to get scope happy with current technologies that seem to manage legacy pci as afterthought tack-ons to the motherboards......I'm both moving on from that dance and also I got sick of constantly having to flip back & forward between scope environment and dual DAW operation on the main machine

I think it depends upon exactly what you're wanting to do with scope as to then how you work out how you need to connect it back into the main system

I don't know exactly how much those expansion boxes cost but I'd guess for half or possibly a quarter of the money an older system + some form of other sound card (working with a modern system to connect secondary standalone scope whether midi or adat or whatever) would be a better option with less hassles......

I now have a collection of 4x separate scope pci rigs, they're all set to to do different things (eg some are synths, others outboard processing, or sampling duties etc) and they remain happiest functioning in older pc's (one of them nearly a 20 years old). The nice thing is too that it also gives a functioning purpose to older machines that typically would be tossed into the recycling bun - as long as they're offline they are as good as gold :)
pranza
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Contact:

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by pranza »

Strictly East, yes, that's the one i have but they come in more flavours: older generation, different amount of slots, 64bit pci card support...
i can do 7 Masterverbs on this one with a single 14dsp card.
Speaking of motherboard 'native' pci capability vs magma boxes i'd say for current hardware it doesn't matter as there weren't any pci compatible desktop chipsets for almost a decade already. Even when they were available, not all implementations were as good as what magma offers. Nowadays if you get a motherboard with PCI slots it means PCI bridge being on-board. Rare thing that you get a mobo with PLX pci bridge (that's a good one that magmas use). Most often it's an ASMEDIA or NUVOTON or ITE - second tier and it's a further gamble how they are implemented.
I reckon most reverbs-capable pci chipsets come from pentium iii age. Even then I had problems with Scope. It has many possibilities and many unsolved issues so no matter how old a system you get, you'll still have issues. On the other hand if you're smart, you'll find a way around those issues and make your Scope work even with latest hardware.

Now concerning a fact that you already have that chinese pci expansion at hand it would make sense troubleshooting it. If it's just a voltage issue you can solve it, or maybe a friend can help... It can be something else though, try just one of the cards in every slot in a row and confirm it works... Also a smallest card, then a bigger card... then two of them.. It can very well be that a pci bridge solution itself in that box is flawed... and only if this is confirmed, it's time to move to magma...
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by garyb »

actually, only the early bridged motherboards with socket 1155 had appalling performance. after that, socket 1150 and 1151 all worked as well as earlier chipsets with native PCI support.

it IS a current problem. the cheap boxes do not have large enough power supplies. the one with the ATX supply probably will have plenty of juice. ALL external boxes provide poor PCI performance including Magma, but the Magma is the most well-made, and most stable. Magma is expensive, however, more expensive than a motherboard that works, more expensive than a second, older PC.

do what chu like.

there have been plenty of socket 1150 motherboards that work great. there have been plenty of socket 1151 motherboards that work great. there have been plenty of socket 1156 motherboards that worked great, there have been plenty of socket 1366 motherboards that worked great. all have been used successfully by hundreds and hundreds of Scope owners.
pranza
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Contact:

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by pranza »

it's a pity i've forgotten to check pci performance with scope seated directly in motherboard.
as there have been some different maximum reverb counts with magmas i have a theory that despite being an 'external' bridge, it still goes under motherbiard/bios command regarding pci performance parameters.

i also haven't played with having different cards vs just scope on the same bus... i can hear my lynx pci card freaking out when pci capacity limit is reached. would it help the reverb count if lynx was taken away? i don't know :)
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by garyb »

no, the Magma is the best by a long shot, but it is not even close to the same as a slot on the motherboard. that does not make it bad. it depends on what you are doing.

i doubt if the Lynx is a problem, unless there's an irq conflict, but the Lynx might be the department of the redundancy department.
pranza
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Contact:

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by pranza »

oh yes, i'd gladly use two scopes with different i/o panels or an xite instead, but lynx covers up for missing samplerates (88K and above 96K), also as a wdm/wave i/o (with scope it doesn't work on x64, or maybe with version 6 it works, but then XTC doesn't work), so I use Scope as strictly ASIO i/o and XTC in selected mixing or mastering applications (not all software works with Scope ASIO) and also in SFP mode as a router or virtual studio. It's still much better like this than no Scope at all :)
as for PCI performance, I didn't notice anything as I never use that many reverbs and it's never Masterverb... S|C Plate and S|C ambience are the thing, but they max out at dsp i/o first rather than PCI... and also, never in real world situation.
Strictly East
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:41 am

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by Strictly East »

Thank you for your answers
I tested with an internal PCI expansion card that doesn't work either.
Most of the 1336 cards I've found only run with 16GB of Ram.
So I'll have to change my config, proco, MB, proco cooler and maybe RAM, having found a Magma at £150 and being aware that it will still be worse than an MB, I'll choose Magma and seriously think about switching to Xite in the near future
pranza
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Contact:

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by pranza »

time to return that expansion solution if you still can...:)

i'd still suggest magma over internal slot as difference in sound quality is so unbelievable i'm still shocked (although i use only digital i/o to external dac!). maybe my pc is so bad because it's full of stuff but anyway it's good to have your audio things away from electric noise source... and powerful cpus / vga's pollute power lines like crazy! sitting in motherboard, sound card has to eat all that.
moreover, hunting for a special mobo every upgrade is tiring and often leads to compromises - like for me - i wanted many pci slots, lpt, com and what not... i got it but only on socket 1150, no 2000-ish pin xenon mobos have that... and once you have your oldschool stuff in other box and that box connects to a pcie inside of your pc, you're suddenly free to get any mobo with at least one spare pcie slot! mini itx? yes please!

xite is a dsp monster and it scales well for the money, buuuuuut it also has certain limitations regarding legacy scope devices and in certain scenarios 2x14 dsp pci cards can do more.. again, depends on what you wanna do.

Maybe you could ask Gary to set all of your licences to one card and put that 6dsp to that single slot and sell the others :)
Strictly East
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:41 am

Re: voltage problem with 3 cards ?

Post by Strictly East »

Luna 2, power sampler and pulsar 2 in the Magma box.
It's very stable.
The whole thing plugged in Zlink on the A16 Ultra, I could record 10 tracks simultaneously (reason why I added a power sampler because the AdatB of the A16 doesn't work).
I haven't really tried with the plugins yet but so far everything's fine.
Post Reply