1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

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CreamWare4Ever
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

valis wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:47 pm Again, if you're running 5-7% CPU, the cores are going to keep sleeping. This can be overridden in bios or with custom power profiles (setting windows to 100% cpu in power plan no longer seems to do the trick, you can find information on Gearslutz.com about this). When cores sleep, the 'active' load gets shifted between cores and that's why you see such large DPC calls on the CPU scheduling list in your first data paste.
Task manager shows CPU fully utilized?
Last edited by CreamWare4Ever on Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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garyb
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by garyb »

why mess with the cpu's clock?

are all those voices loaded? are the clicks in material and playback that YOU record, or in rompler audio? are your samples on the c drive? perhaps there is a bottleneck there, if all those voices are loaded.

you have to also understand that cpu meters in the task manager and the sequencer are not real measures of usable power. there are many things involved in determining at what point you will have dropouts including TIMING. anything that affects the timing of sample streams will click, even though theoretically there is still a lot of processing power available. that's an old processor, and win10 is not that similar to win7, even though they are related. that's why i asked about anything showing a spike in activity DURING the clicks.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

garyb wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:24 pm are all those voices loaded? are the clicks in material and playback that YOU record, or in rompler audio? are your samples on the c drive? perhaps there is a bottleneck there, if all those voices are loaded.
All voices are played by VSTi's, live. Nothing pre-recorded or loaded by a sampler.

The thing is that I can't for life pinpoint the source of the clicks that occurs - not in task manager or elsewhere. Very frustrating.

I saw a blog post about 'How To Enable All Cores in Windows here: https://www.techjunkie.com/enable-all-cores-windows/

But isn't that as you say, unnecessary?

Thanks for helping me out.

PS. If it is easier, maybe you cold a teamview connect to my workstation and take a look?
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by garyb »

probably, but why not just record or freeze instruments? that is probably the solution.

there isn't so much involved. everything has limits, it would be easier to get a faster machine, you might get a little more by doing extreme tweaks, but that won't help you make music.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

garyb wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:17 pm probably, but why not just record or freeze instruments? that is probably the solution.

there isn't so much involved. everything has limits, it would be easier to get a faster machine, you might get a little more by doing extreme tweaks, but that won't help you make music.
Well, it uses to work without a problem before upgrading to Windows 10. It is not a performance-related as I' experience the same thing regardless if loaded 1 or 20 VSTi's in the sequencer. I've tried with a brand new external USB audio card, and there I didn't have such problems.

I just need to do whatever tweaks necessary to get Scope 3DSP card work as it did before. It actually works so, just there some occasional clicks, now and then.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

valis wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:47 pm Again, if you're running 5-7% CPU, the cores are going to keep sleeping. This can be overridden in bios or with custom power profiles (setting windows to 100% cpu in power plan no longer seems to do the trick, you can find information on Gearslutz.com about this). When cores sleep, the 'active' load gets shifted between cores and that's why you see such large DPC calls on the CPU scheduling list in your first data paste.
Did you mean the 'unpark core' exception? I read that it is of no use in DAWs higher than Windows 7?

Btw, garyb is emphasizing that it is not should not require such drastic tweaks to get this solved!? I hope so as well.

Please clarify.
Last edited by CreamWare4Ever on Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

garyb wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:17 pm there isn't so much involved.
Isn't it possible to add a line to cset.ini file to prioritize the Scope audio? If I can recall correctly, I did something similar a long time ago. Please let me know, although I may be wrong.

Thanks.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

Problem narrowed to STM 1632.

All the following are valid If using Msconfig 'Diagnostic startup' mode in Windows 10.

In-Scope V7 environment, when connecting audio directly from Audio Source to Analog Destination, without STM 1632 mixer, then no audio clicks.

But here comes the odd part: Even so, when selecting several channels in Cubase by holding SHIFT and VSTi audio is playing - audio clicks are coming back.

Maybe some/or GPU issue after all? Now, I'm really confused.

?

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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by yayajohn »

Just a thought, if you have an ADDA maybe you can try setting Scope to slave?
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

yayajohn wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:39 am Just a thought, if you have an ADDA maybe you can try setting Scope to slave?
No I don't but I'm suing a Luna 2496 I/O box, same result when it is connected.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by valis »

To explain the CPU core parking situation:

The links you're providing above about enabling additional CPUs or cores are not relevant, and your task manager shows a VERY LOW cpu usage and 30% usage as peak about the middle of the graph (having already passed in time) with 6% usage current.

When windows scheduler handles cores, if you have only a light load your CPU load will NOT stay on the same core. Windows will allocate cores as it thinks necessary, and your DAW sees only 'one virtual core' slice of time per core allocation, from its perspective (and from Scope) nothing ever changes. However the windows HAL and CPU scheduler will simply move your thread(s) core to core as necessary. When those cores 'wake up' or even clock up & down, there is a potential delay that shows up in your first page results as "PER CPU DATA". Look under "PER CPU DATA" and you'll see much higher DPC latencies there than you do elsewhere. This CAN affect Scope, as Scope and your DAW threads are being moved around.

Run your DAW, load up enough VSTI's and such so that your DAW's performance meter (NOT TASK MANAGER) shows a very high load- somewhere between 65-85%. Just route everything but 1 sound source to a bus that goes nowhere (or enable an extra set of ASIO channels in Scope before starting your DAW on the ASIO-32 Source 64 module's properties panel and route to that, don't connet to anything). This will ensure that your plugins are contributing to the processing load and thus the CPU load, without making a mess for your ears.

Once that's done, and you have a HIGH load in your DAW'S PERFORMANCE METER, use a single plugin with a simple sound preset or sine wave etc and listen for clicks again. Compare with no CPU load....if the clicks go away you are experiencing the effects of CORE PARKING.

GaryB suggested above EIST and so on, but I'm not sure modern EFI BIOSes support those settings for all boards anymore, and I think Windows can override that in some cases once you have booted. I won't have time until the end of the week to dig out the relevant threads on Gearslutz.com, but if you want to search look for CORE PARKING discussions post 2015 using that forum's search function.
CreamWare4Ever wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:48 am Problem narrowed to STM 1632.

All the following are valid If using Msconfig 'Diagnostic startup' mode in Windows 10.

In-Scope V7 environment, when connecting audio directly from Audio Source to Analog Destination, without STM 1632 mixer, then no audio clicks.

But here comes the odd part: Even so, when selecting several channels in Cubase by holding SHIFT and VSTi audio is playing - audio clicks are coming back.

Maybe some/or GPU issue after all? Now, I'm really confused.

?

Image
Gary, if using the ASIO-32 Source 64, if memory serves we only expose to your DAW the number of channels active on the ASIO 64 device...correct? I can't recall this particular detail and Scope isn't powered up atm...but wondering if trying a different ASIO module is worthwhile.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by garyb »

yes, valis, that is correct, if i understand you.

with Cubase, i would use the ASIO2 flt myself...
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by valis »

Also note that my information on CPU core parking is just to help understand what that means. CreamWare4Ever, when it comes to troubleshooting you have to 'walk the chain' just like finding the source of noise or a bad signal. Test each thing in turn and try to test only one thing at a time, until you find the culprit.

Sometimes, as when testing for bad plugins, it makes sense to test in batches until one finds the 'batch' that contains the offender then isolate it from there, but this will NOT work with technical troubleshooting in computers in most cases. Meaning you'll have no idea what fixed the issue, as changing too many things 'until it just works' leaves the result in the realm of magic:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
-Arthur C. Clarke
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

valis wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:16 am To explain the CPU core parking situation:

The links you're providing above about enabling additional CPUs or cores are not relevant, and your task manager shows a VERY LOW cpu usage and 30% usage as peak about the middle of the graph (having already passed in time) with 6% usage current.

When windows scheduler handles cores, if you have only a light load your CPU load will NOT stay on the same core. Windows will allocate cores as it thinks necessary, and your DAW sees only 'one virtual core' slice of time per core allocation, from its perspective (and from Scope) nothing ever changes. However the windows HAL and CPU scheduler will simply move your thread(s) core to core as necessary. When those cores 'wake up' or even clock up & down, there is a potential delay that shows up in your first page results as "PER CPU DATA". Look under "PER CPU DATA" and you'll see much higher DPC latencies there than you do elsewhere. This CAN affect Scope, as Scope and your DAW threads are being moved around.

Run your DAW, load up enough VSTI's and such so that your DAW's performance meter (NOT TASK MANAGER) shows a very high load- somewhere between 65-85%. Just route everything but 1 sound source to a bus that goes nowhere (or enable an extra set of ASIO channels in Scope before starting your DAW on the ASIO-32 Source 64 module's properties panel and route to that, don't connet to anything). This will ensure that your plugins are contributing to the processing load and thus the CPU load, without making a mess for your ears.

Once that's done, and you have a HIGH load in your DAW'S PERFORMANCE METER, use a single plugin with a simple sound preset or sine wave etc and listen for clicks again. Compare with no CPU load....if the clicks go away you are experiencing the effects of CORE PARKING.

GaryB suggested above EIST and so on, but I'm not sure modern EFI BIOSes support those settings for all boards anymore, and I think Windows can override that in some cases once you have booted. I won't have time until the end of the week to dig out the relevant threads on Gearslutz.com, but if you want to search look for CORE PARKING discussions post 2015 using that forum's search function.
I have had correct power management settings all the time, like 100% power, etc.

When it comes to core parking, it has been on all the time. Check the attached image below.

After some research, and looking back at the LatencyMon results, there are 1 or 2 bad guys in this story:

dxgkrnl.sys - DirectX Graphics Kernel, Microsoft Corporation

and

nvlddmkm.sys - NVIDIA Windows Kernel Mode Driver, Version 432.00 , NVIDIA Corporation


Unfortunately, the only solution is to switch the GPU provider card. As there's not seems to be a fix for this from Nvidia.

I think it is safe to assume that Scope V7 ECO system doesn't have anything to do with this. Now, I'm on the run for the new GPU card.

I'll let you know my findings. Thanks for all the support in this thread.

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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by garyb »

sure. NVIDIA is good here, perhaps it's just a bad card.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by valis »

If the nvidia is the source, is it failing to switch power states? And do you use one monitor or more than one?

When troubleshooting Nvidia drivers, I first clean my system with DDU from Wagnarsoft after extracting it to my downloads folder or other suitable location on my drive (actual download links for latest version is always in his forums) . It needs to be run from Safe Mode (how to boot to safe mode in WIn10). When you run it the first time, you'll need to make sure to check the setting in DDU's options to 'Prevent downloads of drivers from "Windows update" when "Windows" search for a driver for a device' (wagnarsoft's poor grammar, not mine). This can also be done manually in a variety of ways. With the cleaning for Nvidia drivers finished, boot back into Win10 normal mode and install the latest Nvidia drivers for your card model (and Win64/32 version) from their official downloads list. Note if you're not a big gamer and have a 10 series card or higher, there are now Studio Drivers listed in "Download Type" (these are optimized for graphics software, support 10bit color, and tend to have DPC latency issues deferred as they are tuned for professional use not gaming use). Do NOT use the "DCH" drivers or let those ever be installed on your system, you'll have a hard time installing any other Nvidia driver version at that point.

Once that's done, reboot! Then open the Nvidia control panel by right clicking on desktop and check the power settings to make sure they're set to "maximum performance" (Item 6 on this page). Tip: Note item 3 as well for anyone who ever uses GPU based programs on a laptop.)

See if that changes anything with Nvidia drivers and DPC latency results.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

Aside from my primary problem, Scope v5.1 can be installed & used under Windows 10

In Windows 10, uninstall Scope 7 and revert to/install Scope 5.1 + fire up Cubase 10.0.50 in Windows 8 compatibility mode.

To install Scope v5.1 under Windows 10, you would need to disable and afterward enable Windows 10 'Integrity Checks & Drive Signing''.

Type 'cmd' in the Windows 10 search bar and enter then in Command Prompt:

1)

Code: Select all

bcdedit.exe -set loadoptions DISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS
2)

Code: Select all

bcdedit.exe -set TESTSIGNING ON
((NOTE: Restart required to work!))

3)

Code: Select all

bcdedit.exe -set TESTSIGNING OFF
Last edited by CreamWare4Ever on Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

... This tells me that the solution was actually within the Scope ECO system, and that is a good thing.

That is an elegant solution for almost a 20-year-old a Scope 3DSP card hardware :) I guess Windows 10 can be considered as an EOL when it comes to OS support for it if using it in a non-compatibility mode OS setting. If using in full Windows 8 compatibility mode, it is an acceptable trade-off actually, as it works like a charm under Windows 10 in that way.

Kudos for Creamware & Scope developers and techs for building such future proof solutions.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by garyb »

v7 DEFINITELY works in windows 10. i use it all the time.
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Re: 1-2 audio clicks per minute despite full optimized Windows 10

Post by CreamWare4Ever »

garyb wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:59 am v7 DEFINITELY works in windows 10. i use it all the time.
Of course, it works in Windows 10. My point was that it has issues IF using with a 'legacy' Luna 3DSP card in Windows 10. As Scope v5.1 and Luna 3DSP card work without a problem in Windows 10.

To be fair, I haven't tested Scope v7 in a compatibility mode for a 3DSP card in Windows 10. Maybe that combination will work as-well.

Is it advisable to have a both Scope v5.1 and v7 installed side by side?

Cheers.
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