PCI Overflow Problem

An area for people to discuss Scope related problems, issues, etc.

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valis
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by valis »

Bud Weiser wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:38 pm
valis wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:57 pm IRQ sharing won't show up the way it used to, as you have to disable ACPI (in BIOS, and set the Windows HAL to MPS Multiprocessor rather than ACPI Multiprocessor) to be able to see shared IRQs that way.
maybe I mistake your comment,- but when going into device manager > view > ressources by type > IRQ (interupt) request ...
IRQ sharing should be shown w/o changing anything in BIOS,- no ?
I hope I described that right because I´m on a german OS,- thats´s why I explained for Marco in german in former post and just only for the case he might need such explanation at all.
IRQ sharing will NOT be shown on a modern system with BIOS and Windows OS all set to defaults, because ACPI stacks everything on on a few IRQ's (for the most part) and remaps everything from there in the relatively 'virtual' ACPI irq-space.

Case in point, notice in my screenshot here that there are 512 (virtualized) "ISA" IRQ's, and everything "PCI" (which includes PCIe) is largely on IRC 16-20 (below #511):
Image
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valis
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by valis »

I cropped that image between 89 & 501 obviously, to save space. In my case, you can see that there are 3 devices sharing IRQ 16. On a Core2 era machine and before, I might try to switch the computer type (at the top of device manager when you do view>devices by type) to MPS x64 Multiprocessor PC and see if I could resolve IRQ sharing, but I haven't had to do that in 8 years to a system. (I might also give a reminder however, that I also still run Scope in an older system as a sidecar machine as well).
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Spielraum
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Spielraum »

nebelfuerst wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:03 am Since I learned about the "masterverb"-test, I tested most of my mainboards. ( about 5 different boards). All boards ran with more than 10 masterverbs, the best one did 15. ...
OOHH :roll:

...a board ranking list would be wonderful
i prefer working with old stable
and YES, this thread has become a must have!
please continue!
...and to my favorites 8)
Last edited by Spielraum on Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spielraum
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Spielraum »

garyb wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:58 am btw- i am not a computer savant. my knowledge is practical since i have a studio and the computer is an important part.
...
if you want to integrate real hardware and the computer, and use hardware-quality processing, then you do need Scope. if this is the case, then put the cards into a computer that works. how much were those 20 year-old cards? how much does a working computer cost?
1+
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Bud Weiser
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Bud Weiser »

valis wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:33 pm
IRQ sharing will NOT be the same as it was for Scope's original era---on a modern system with BIOS and Windows OS all set to defaults ACPI stacks everything on on a few IRQ's (for the most part) depending on what bus the hardware uses, and remaps everything on those shared IRQ's as it sees fit (well beyond what Plug & Play used to do).

Case in point, notice in my screenshot here that there are 512 (virtualized) "ISA" IRQ's, and everything "PCI" (which includes PCIe) is largely on IRC 16-20 (below #511):
Yep, I´ve recognized that to on my office machine running Win7 SP1 32Bit.
These "ISA" IRQs were never seen in WinXP ...

Nonetheless, I see your HD Audio Controller, Intel serial I/O 12C Host Controller-A2E0, NVIDIA GTX 2080 graphics card and the RME card share IRQ #16.

So, when I´d use XITE-1 instead of RME, I´d at least try to find a better slot to get out of the way from graphics card and disable HD Audio in BIOS or deactivate in device manager.
It might not urgently necessary w/ your RME card though.
I dunno what the Intel serial host controller does, so no idea if it made sense disabling/de-activate that too.

To me that means, that list is indicator for IRQ sharing still, but much more complex than before and better than nothing.
Sometimes and w/ luck, the audio card won´t show IRQ sharing or disabling some USB does the trick.

On my office machine mentioned above, the HD Audio Controller is on IRQ #22 exclusively,- so that is what I use w/ ASIO4ALL and earphones,- just only for testing plugins after download in different hosts like Reaper, Tone2 Nano Host 1.0.2 and Cantabile lite,- and it works w/ 256 samples buffer size.
Even I already disabled some stuff like Firewire and LTP in device manager, this machine allows some more optimization since I recognized some driver ("USB to USB2 something" shown by LatencyMon) kicks in occasionally and after a longer period of time.
I cannot identify this driver though ... it seems to have a different name on the machine or isn´t shown in device manager or such.
It´s Gigabyte 956P-DQ6, socket 775 w/ Intel Core2Quad,- so it might be good for SCOPE PCI.

:)

Bud
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by garyb »

right click on windows logo choose "run".
type "msinfo32"

click on "hardware resources" click on "conflict\sharing"

note the name of any USB, Firewire, or Network device and disable the device in the device manger.

no other sharing should matter.

i surely have typed this a lot, especially since most of it's in the "setting up your computer" thread...
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Marco »

Yesterday ordered, today arrived! Asus z87-k with many dust just removed with brush and vaccum cleaner :D
Now replacing......
Hope it works... . :roll:
:wink: out and about for music production. Are you still configguring your Studio :lol: music first!
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Marco
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Marco »

All cleaned and mobo changed - now build in. Dog and cats make quality control!
:wink: out and about for music production. Are you still configguring your Studio :lol: music first!
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Marco »

:-? Sorry the new mobo makes the same shit
:wink: out and about for music production. Are you still configguring your Studio :lol: music first!
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valis
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by valis »

Bud Weiser wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:26 am
valis wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:33 pm
IRQ sharing will NOT be the same as it was for Scope's original era---on a modern system with BIOS and Windows OS all set to defaults ACPI stacks everything on on a few IRQ's (for the most part) depending on what bus the hardware uses, and remaps everything on those shared IRQ's as it sees fit (well beyond what Plug & Play used to do).

Case in point, notice in my screenshot here that there are 512 (virtualized) "ISA" IRQ's, and everything "PCI" (which includes PCIe) is largely on IRC 16-20 (below #511):
Yep, I´ve recognized that to on my office machine running Win7 SP1 32Bit.
These "ISA" IRQs were never seen in WinXP ...

Nonetheless, I see your HD Audio Controller, Intel serial I/O 12C Host Controller-A2E0, NVIDIA GTX 2080 graphics card and the RME card share IRQ #16.

So, when I´d use XITE-1 instead of RME, I´d at least try to find a better slot to get out of the way from graphics card and disable HD Audio in BIOS or deactivate in device manager.
It might not urgently necessary w/ your RME card though.
I dunno what the Intel serial host controller does, so no idea if it made sense disabling/de-activate that too.

To me that means, that list is indicator for IRQ sharing still, but much more complex than before and better than nothing.
Sometimes and w/ luck, the audio card won´t show IRQ sharing or disabling some USB does the trick.

On my office machine mentioned above, the HD Audio Controller is on IRQ #22 exclusively,- so that is what I use w/ ASIO4ALL and earphones,- just only for testing plugins after download in different hosts like Reaper, Tone2 Nano Host 1.0.2 and Cantabile lite,- and it works w/ 256 samples buffer size.
Even I already disabled some stuff like Firewire and LTP in device manager, this machine allows some more optimization since I recognized some driver ("USB to USB2 something" shown by LatencyMon) kicks in occasionally and after a longer period of time.
I cannot identify this driver though ... it seems to have a different name on the machine or isn´t shown in device manager or such.
It´s Gigabyte 956P-DQ6, socket 775 w/ Intel Core2Quad,- so it might be good for SCOPE PCI.

:)

Bud
While it is using an interrupt, the main takeaway is that the GPIO controller device allows modern hardware to talk to legacy ports & devices (on a motherboard, typically) that are much more fixed in addressing than the PCI & PCIe devices are.

As for IRQ sharing I agree somewhat, however let me clarify that in a moment in a separate post, as it may help others over time beyond this discussion thread alone. The main point however is that a shared IRQ on a modern system (anything past Core2 for certain) doesn't mean what it did when our Scope cards debuted. While they haven't changed in their PCI bus implementation, the way that bus is addressed and mapped to IRQs has changed vastly, and this means many devices can 'share an irq' with no issue, even with Scope, imho. That's because the controller chips that are talking to them virtualize the whole address range and interrupt stack anyway, so what 'looks' like IRQ 16 for the same devices is not that at all when looking at the addressing on a lower level per device. It's literally just an address exposed when the 'what IRQs are in use' query is made from the software side.

I'll break that down in that other post, so let's branch the IRQ related specifics off this off to this thread: IRQ sharing, the PCI bus, ACPI/APIC addressing and your Scope cards
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by astroman »

that was a neat explanation @valis 8)
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garyb
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by garyb »

Marco wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:49 am :-? Sorry the new mobo makes the same shit
well, that looks a little better, but it's still not very good. that really stinks.

did you say you were using the motherboard's built-in video? if so, i would try a PCIe video card, just to check.
i do think this is a hardware issue.
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Marco »

This is a Microsoft Intel 4600 Onboard graphic build in Onboard graphic card. I don't have a pcie card here. Hmmm Let's See what I can do.
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Marco »

Im now installing a radeon and 7750......trying out
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Marco »

only 6 masterverbs after installing a Radeon ati 7750 PCIe graphic Card with newes Drivers.
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nebelfuerst
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by nebelfuerst »

Just some ideas for troubleshooting:
Use the bios defaults. This should give 80% performance in any case. Using bios tricks required deep testing and knowledge.

Get rid of stupid windows-addons, like virus checkers, hardware monitors. try to disable defender on win10 as much as possible, as it keeps the cpu and the io-system busy while scanning in the background.

For onboards cards try to lower the resolution if it makes a difference.

Use only one card at a time in different pci slots tested masterverbs.
make the card master, no external equipment attached.

As I still use Win7-32 on my pci machines, I have no idea of win10 makes a difference. On win7 you should check device manager ( german gerätemanager) if all scopes are using the latest drivers. ( if there are several installations of scope, it might be messed here..)


some mainboards require a driverset from intel. although an older board should be supported by the drivers if windows. sometimes it makes sense to get the latest drivers for the mainboard from the board manufacturer, even if win10 has drivers for it... backup your systen in advance ;-)
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by nebelfuerst »

I'll have to add that my measurements with masterverbs were done with 44kHz.
I don't know what the rult would look like with 96khz. ( half ? )
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Marco »

I can load only 7 masterverbs in an empty Project, it is unstable, with 8 I could not start the soundcard

what I did: (new to old-up/down)

I used 44,1khz - all the time
I have installed a pcie graphiccard and latest drivers AMD Radeon 7750- no changes :-?
I have loaded latest Chissetdriverset for ASUS win10 - no changes :-?
I changed the exact same ASUS z78-k Motherboard - no changes :-?
I have checked the bios for typical scope changes - no changes :-?
I use for testing only one card, I could load one more masterverb - not enough :-?
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Marco
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by Marco »

Maybe I got it?????????
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Re: PCI Overflow Problem

Post by garyb »

Marco wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:43 am Maybe I got it?????????

i hope so.
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