Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

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Mercury
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Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by Mercury »

Hi all,

I'm the original owner of a Puslar 1 board (scope V4).
It's currently installed in an old core2 duo machine running XP that I have just taken back out of retirement but I think the computer is about to fail so it's time to upgrade. I could just get another old system but I would rather get something modern and maximise its life span - the ASUS TUF H310-Plus Gaming Motherboard looks like a good potential candidate. That would also mean upgrading to Win10, V7 and gaining access to additional and more up-to-date scope devices.

If I go this route I plan to add more PCI cards when I can but for now I'll need to make do with just the Pulsar 1. I would have liked to have gone to at least a Pulsar 2 before upgrading to V7 as I know the license isn't transferable but If I get a new 3 x PCI board I expect I may be happy with filling two slots with bigger cards and keep my original Pulsar 1 - it seems the resale of the Pulsar 1 would not yield much and be a waste when I could still use its DSP. Obviously I will be committing to that with the V7 purchase.

So I have a few questions... I've been doing a bit of searching in the forum and remember seeing these addressed in the past but am having difficulty finding all the answers so hopefully no one minds too much that I represent them here.

1. Are there any performance or compatibility issues with combining the V1 Pulsar with newer, later revision boards like the Pulsar 2 and above?

2. I look forward to the improved latency of the later boards once I get any but apart from the above question will it be an issue having the V7 software associated with the Pulsar 1?

3. How many voices should I expect out a single instance of the Minimax and Profit 5 on the Pulsar 1 under V7? I understand that I may be doing a lot of old school rendering to audio if I want to use multiple synths from the Pulsar 1 in a single song given the limited DSP.

4. Anything else worth mentioning that I haven't considered?

I greatly appreciate any advice on offer.

As some additional context I do have another desktop running an i7 8700 and an RME Multiface (PCIe card) that runs my daw and VSTs etc. The above would be mostly a dedicated Scope box with it talking back to the main DAW via midi and adat.

BTW, If anyone is looking to sell a Pulsar 2 to someone in Australia for a good price I'm definitely on the lookout.

Ken
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garyb
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by garyb »

1. 13ms, vs 2-4ms latency
2. no
3. the same as v7, not many. maybe 2 or 3.
4. well...no STS or XTC mode in v7 64bit....
Mercury
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by Mercury »

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the quick response.

Re question 1, are you saying that the presence of the V1 board will bring the whole system down to the 13ms limit?

My assumptions were as follows:

1. For "soundcard/Software-IO" functions I would experience a minimum 13ms from the Pulsar 1 io and 2-3ms if I used the Pulsar 2 io? I would make the Pulsar 2 the primary card and utilise the Pulsar 1 mainly for additional DSP. I'm wondering what the relationship is here when both cards are employed? I don't really expected to channel audio via a DAW on the host system so am wondering if it's much of a factor in my case - I would use it more like a standalone processing appliance attached to my main DAW hosted on another computer (midi and ADAT between the RME and one of the Pulsar/Scope boards directly).

2. Triggering the DSP based synths via midi and routing audio via the dedicated i/o (analog or adat) would be limited by the DSP + DAC/ADAT latencies whatever they are which I assume is possibly equal between board types and very low?
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by garyb »

1. yes, adding a second generation card would allow lower latency. you will see reduced pci performance from a second gen card alone. i apologize for the poor explanation earlier. i knew i was forgetting something.

2. yes, those latencies are about the same as any digital hardware, i.e. negligible. Scope is real-time, for (virtually :wink: ) all intents and purposes.
Mercury
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by Mercury »

Awesome, so in essence everything will get better and the only downside would be is if I sold the Pulsar 1, in which case I would have to purchase a new V7+ licence?
I think I also read somewhere that if the Pulsar 1 physically died I could return it to Sonic Core and in that instance they would be prepared to issue a replacement license for another card?
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by garyb »

yes, and yes.
Mercury
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by Mercury »

Hi Gary, I just noticed this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36022#p340290:

Re PCI performance, were you alluding to this when you said earlier in this thread?
yes, adding a second generation card would allow lower latency. you will see reduced pci performance from a second gen card alone
I didn't really pick up on that and the wording suggests the "second gen card" would reduce PCI performance which doesn't sound right.

I have installed V7 and tested the Pulsar 1 on my old Core2 duo (Windows 10 32bit) but am getting PCI errors when I try to run the newer instruments (MiniMax, Profit 5 etc.) it runs all my old projects fine. At first they wouldn't run at all but I was using an RDP session from my other non-PCI, DAW computer. When I logged on directly I was able to load the instruments and make some sound but as soon as I tried to change parameters or even move the interface around it would fail again.

The host PC is a bit of a laggard and I have recently bought a new ASUS TUF H310-Plus motherboard (3 x PCI) so I am hoping that will help the issue once I build that system. I also have a faster Core2 system which I will also try first. Can you expand on the PCI performance issues of the Gen 1 cards and how that affects the whole system when standalone or with multiple cards(2nd gen)?

All I was after was the ability to run all the new synths, one at a time with a single voice or two directly via Midi and ADAT - Was that unreasonable? - please say no as I've already handed over the cash ;)
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valis
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by valis »

Simply having PCI errors isn't really a great indicator of performance or lack thereof, on that board it's quite likely there's a lot of IRQ steering and sharing going on. V7 seems to be more well behaved in regard to respecting a modern AHCI configuration (which stacks everything onto 1-2 IRQs and then 'steers' things), but this is entirely dependent on the host computer's various 3rd party chips and onboard devices/ports.

I have a process that I have used for all P3/P4 and Core1/2 era machines for mapping out my device sharing, which has always helped immensely when clearing up PCI congestion. It's a bit long winded, but one thing is for sure. Disable all devices on a board of that era that you're not using before doing any further troubleshooting or optimization. Especially as Windows 10 may not have optimized drivers for devices on a board that old. The ASUS should be better in that regard.

Also you didn't mention if you had any kind of host DAW software running at the same time, which can of course consume additional resources (ASIO will consume PCI bandwidth of course) and potentially delay being responsive to Interrupt Requests.

Also, did you check on DCP latency with that board?
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by garyb »

a pulsar1 will always reduce PCI performance. that's just how it is. that might still be ok, however. it really depends on what you use and how you use it. even though PCI performance will be reduced, that doesn't make the system useless, it just means that it won't allow as much PCI traffic as a second generation card would alone. notr every plugin adds to the PCI load. reverbs and delays are the main users of PCI resources. only a few synths use much PCI.
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by Mercury »

Hi Valis,

The DAW software runs on a separate, modern i7 8600, Z370 (MSI) system. It has an RME HDSP PCIe card attached to a Multiface that I'm using for Midi and ADAT connection to the Pulsar on the Core2Duo Host. I'm basically running the Pulsar as an appliance to remove the ASIO latency limit on the gen1 card, so I should be able to disable anything else that is superfluous to that function. All I have done as far as troubleshooting is make a very minimal Scope environment with midi in, a basic mixer and ADAT out removing ASIO, Soundcard I/o etc. - No BIOS or Device Manager optimisations as it wasn't used for music originally. The Pulsar used to run on the same system under an XP Sp3 partition (Scope V4). So this was really just a boot to Win10, Install the V7 software and see what happens scenario.

If you are willing to share your mapping out of device sharing process I would be grateful.

DHCP Latency... do you mean as in Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol? Do you mentioned that re the RDP connection I used initially?

Gary,
I'm seeing this just with the single instruments loaded - no effects.
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valis
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by valis »

You're basically using an identical configuration to my usage. I have 3 machines running Multiface II's now to be truthful, 1 legacy dual Xeon machine (2010 era), a Mac Pro (also legacy 2010 era) and an i7 8700 (Alienware machine given to me when I did an Intel VR commercial).

If you're not running any ASIO host or DAW on the Scope computer, then there *is* no ASIO latency. Your latency is all ADAT & ASIO layer on the RME driver side (the i7 8600 machine), plus a few samples for overhead in the Scope environment (negligible, and as long as you keep the orange SYNC button checked on relevant devices it shouldn't cause much concern as long as you're not doing parallel compression of drums or etc). In any case, worrying about a few samples in the Scope environment is rather nuanced and let's hold off on that side of things until later.

DPC Latency is from "Deferred Procedure Calls", which means when an IRQ is called but another device is still busy, the call is delayed. Since Scope uses the PCI bus exclusively through Interrupt Re-Quest calls to move data around (Input Output or i/o on the hardware level uses Interrupt requests, an interrupt is a CPU command called by an opcode that tells the CPU to STOP what it's currently doing and service an I/O device, or peripheral). Ok, so now that we went down that rabbit hole..

When a PCI error occurs, the Scope card (Pulsar 1, 2 etc) did NOT get its interrupt serviced in time, and therefore was not able to put or receive i/o data that it needed. This is not 'audio' data per se (though it can be), rather this is a lower level that is simply moving binary data. In your DSP meter, these tend to be related to the "ASYNC" portion of your dsp load. Ie, that which GaryB suggests is mostly used for Reverbs & Delays (this WOULD be audio data) but I believe also includes UI code for the Scope UI. Unless the MiniMAx & Profit 5 patches you're using are making heavy use of onboard FX, this is most likely why you get PCI overflow messages when changing presets & interacting with their UI's (User Interfaces).

In any case, back up the rabbit hole we go.

LatencyMon is one utility for checking these issues, and will quickly show if you have DPC calls that are adding too much overhead to i/o tasks. Typically we test a system first at idle (just sitting at the desktop), then with your main application(s) loaded such as Scope 7, and in your case Scope 7 and RDP combined as a final test. Each of these in turn will utilize resources that may call into play the hardware that is affecting your usage(s). Scope 7's UI and PCI bandwidth competing with other onboard devices for instance, or the RDP protocol interacting with the network card when everything is running, and so on.

DPC Latency Checker is the other tool I am familiar with using, but I'm not sure if that tool was ever brought up to the Win10 era. I do see some notes at the top of the page about Win8, and reading the description on that page in general is probably useful even if the tool is not. Whether it is or is not for Win10, I cannot say. LatencyMon above I believe is Win10 compatible...

Ok so that will tell you that you DO have an issue, well how do you determine what onboard device is the culprit? Again, simply performing a task (or running software) that utilizes an offending device may help, as will the reporting tools that LatencyMon provides. This is why disabling unused devices is a great starting point, it gives you less to troubleshoot! GPU (graphics card) drivers are one notorious culprit, and again onboard devices from companies like KILLER, Realtek and Azalia etc may also be culprits. This is because many onboard devices simply are implementing their i/o calls as software layers on the CPU and the hardware 'chip' is a simple FIFO buffer... but you needn't understand all of that to isolate offending devices, try different driver versions, and disable things you don't need.

We also used to set the PCI Latency of offending devices, as lowering their priority could help them play better with audio resources, such as your Scope cards.

I would start there...and once you've gotten your head around some of that we can start to talk more about mapping out the resource sharing more directly.

I will also defer to GaryB here for a quick discussion on your BIOS changes that will likely help. He's used to spelling all of that out for people, and disabling the C1e, C6 and other EIST sleep states for your CPU can also help keep the CPU 'ready' for i/o tasks and avoid PCI errors. I would dig into that more now, but he's a pro and I must get my children into bed. :)
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by garyb »

you do need to disable power stepping.
you do need to check for shared irqs.
there is a "setting up your computer" thread, and while it's about win7 mostly, the same basic principles apply.

a core2 running win10 should definitely work.

when you get the message, can you retry? does it work then?
Mercury
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by Mercury »

Valis, Gary,
Thank you both for such detailed responses. I greatly appreciate your time.
I will try these suggestions out in the next day or two when I can steal the time.
Mercury
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by Mercury »

Well I applied everything mentioned above and didn't see a huge improvement but I was able to load the instruments and as long as I didn't move the instrument panels around I was able to play them. Occasionally they would give a PCI limit reached error and I would have to reset the sample rate but it was enough to play around to a degree.

Then, for a lark I rebooted into XP and installed V7 there. Not a single issue - rock solid. I was able to get MiniMax V7 And Profit 5 up simultaneously synced to the external DAW over ADAT and nothing I did brought it down. DSP load showing 1 bar down from full. One thing I omitted to mention was the system only has 2GB of RAM due to a limitaion of the Via chipset - with the right ram i might get 3GB max out of it. Win10 is no doubt struggling with that and paging madly - possibly the root of the issue.

It's a pity SCOPE doesn't run on Linux so i could go as light as possible on the host OS for my intended purposes(but current as far as security is concerned vs XP). That said the new coffee lake system should hopefully be fine.

Again, thanks for your help and attention!
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by garyb »

oh yes!
for win10 32bit, you need 4gb of ram.
for win10 64bit, at least 8gb of ram....
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by valis »

Honestly that sounds like the GPU is conflicting with your DSP card usage. Also, Via was never good for Scope if I recall...

1. Is that system AGP or PCIe? In fact what is the motherboard make & model?

2. What graphics card do you have?

3. What speed is that CPU?

I *think* I have a Core2Duo E8500 in a box somewhere from upgrading a friend's computer to a C2Q (alongside a mobile chip I never got around to using and some other spare Xeons etc). However let's start with the motherboard...

As I mentioned above, I also use Scope in an XP era machine as a 'sidecar' to my main machine(s). I didn't mention what system that was yet, but you should know: it's a 2001 era dual Xeon rig with 2GB ram. Technically it's a Prestonia era dual Xeon rig, which means it was the FIRST iteration of the Pentium 4 chip, which predates your C2Duo by quite a few years. If I can get it running stably on that as a sidecar, you can trust that it will run fine on any machine of similar spec onward with the same usage scenario. I would never bother trying VNC or RDP on such an old rig, nor can I do modern things like screen recording (without just using a GPU output and recording that way), but for Scope + Bidule (which means I have an ASIO load) it's been a wonderful machine. Especially considering it's 18 years old now :)
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Re: Combining Pulsar 1 with newer PCI boards in V7

Post by valis »

I have used both DoubleDawg and "PCI Latency Tool" to set the PCI latency timer of my GPU (and Network card) under XP32. If memory serves, DoubleDawg was more reliable there, and PCI Latency Tool more reliable under Win7.

Doubledawg is so old, I have attached it here for your reference, as I cannot find it online with a quick search.
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