Modular losing voices.

An area for people to discuss Scope related problems, issues, etc.

Moderators: valis, garyb

JoPo
Posts: 2306
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: VRRAAaaooOôOooommmh
Contact:

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by JoPo »

zerocrossing wrote:New should bring up a fresh blank project, like every other piece of software I've ever worked in. Under "new" should be something like "Default" which would be a user definable template. Maybe having 3 would be perfect. Default 1, etc. Or just call it "Template 1, 2, etc."
Well.. When I start a new project in cubase, clicking on "new", cubase load the template I made to save time, like in Scope : it loads all the stuff I'm sure I'll need in a new project, instead to load this stuff agin in an empty project.
But if you prefer to have an empty project when you click on "new", it's your choice and that is that point that is the best way to do : to give users the choice ! To give user possibility to choose as much as possible how they want to work and to have a maximum of possibilities, necessarilly, come from a complicated system that users need to learn. BUT ONLY if they want to have so many choices ! If they don't want to have so many possibilities, they can use some simplier systems. With 10 pages in the manual. User can choose... Indeed, maybe you made the wrong choice. More user can have choices, possibilities, more complicated is the system and not only in electronic music. I'm an industrial automatical machine technician and it's exactly the same.
I remember when I started to use Scope, I complaining on Creamware forum "I want to make MUSIC ! Not computer configuration !" But I was feeling Scope was a fantastic tool, so I learned and good result didn't came out very fast.. But now, I don't have any regret to have keeped learning that system !

You have to think what do you want Scope allows you to do... Mixing ? Recording ? Sound designing ? Having several synths ready to play ?
I use it with a daw and its VST's, I mix in Scope, go to have a listen in my signature ! I'm not a pro at all ! And when I bought my first Creamware card, I didn't know what a compressor was. I make music because it's what I like to do, that's it. I use modular to build fx processor I don't find on the market ; and for to do all this, there is no other system that can do that. But I couldn't do this 2 days, week and even months or years after buying it ! I had to learn computers, midi, audio engineering, synth programing ! No system on the market allows me to do what I do with Scope, or maybe buying 10 very very good hitech computers linked together with 8 cores each... I don't believe it would be simplier...

And I'm still learning !! (And this is my pleasure !) Go to see on BCModular forum !
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- Musica --> here ! ---< < < < < < < < < < < <
zerocrossing
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:26 am

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by zerocrossing »

faxinadu wrote:
Don't even try to sync the Modular delays to MIDI clock... fail
fail how? it works
Glitch city. Everything else I have seems to be fine with my clock... Even other scope stuff.
zerocrossing
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:26 am

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by zerocrossing »

faxinadu wrote:"new" is your default project, just erase everything and click the save as default in settings. not arguing about your performance issues, but to say something doesn't work just because you haven't learned yet how to do it is a bit silly :)
You miss the point. There should be no learning curve to initiating a blank "new' project. What you're saying is, "Oh, you can't start your new car? We designed it so you turn the key counter clockwise in the ignition and then you have to flip a toggle switch. You should have read the manual." If I designed a UI like that QA would have come back and hit me with a bug report. I'm all for flexibility, but not at the expense of clarity.
zerocrossing
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:26 am

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by zerocrossing »

JoPo wrote:
You have to think what do you want Scope allows you to do... Mixing ? Recording ? Sound designing ? Having several synths ready to play ?
I use it with a daw and its VST's, I mix in Scope, go to have a listen in my signature ! I'm not a pro at all ! And when I bought my first Creamware card, I didn't know what a compressor was. I make music because it's what I like to do, that's it. I use modular to build fx processor I don't find on the market ; and for to do all this, there is no other system that can do that. But I couldn't do this 2 days, week and even months or years after buying it ! I had to learn computers, midi, audio engineering, synth programing ! No system on the market allows me to do what I do with Scope, or maybe buying 10 very very good hitech computers linked together with 8 cores each... I don't believe it would be simplier...

And I'm still learning !! (And this is my pleasure !) Go to see on BCModular forum !
Actually, my needs and expectations of Scope/XITE-1 are pretty simple. I just wanted a hardware VA/Wavetable synth that I could build up to my own specs in a modular environment. Nothing super crazy. My frustrations come when I take a very simple Modular preset, 3OscSynth I think it's called, and replace one of the oscillators with the Waldorf wavetable oscillator and all of the sudden it doesn't work. I can't even get a single voice out of it. I get a barrage of error messages and ultimately it dies even as a ASIO device. Now, I can see if the device can't make the (modest) synth I'm going for, but to have it fail as my i/o is frustrating and time consuming.

Now here's the thing. I spent more time with that patch. I had to take the LFOs out of it and then I got it working. Somehow I was able to add other LFOs, seemingly more complicated ones, and I got it to work... I even think I got 5 voices out of it. Now, five voices of polyphony is pretty poor by commercial VST standards, but at least I got it working. Even added a phaser and an insert delay and reverb. So, it seems that there is power, but how Scope allocates it seems very buggy and awkward.
JoPo
Posts: 2306
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: VRRAAaaooOôOooommmh
Contact:

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by JoPo »

Ok. I made the test. I loaded 3OscSynth and changed one of the oscillator with the Waldorf one. I made that in the project I'm already working on. I assigned 10 voices to 3OscSynth without any problem or error message. As you can see in the jpg, I already have 3 other modular patches in this project. Each stereo channels going in the mixer have a multifx rack with different fx processors in them. In one multifx rack, there is 2 other multifx rack, like russian doll !! And you can see the power meter is far from its maximum : it's around its middle.
3OscSynth.jpg
3OscSynth.jpg (553.12 KiB) Viewed 4298 times
Maybe the issues you are experimenting don't comes from Scope & Xite, otherwise, I would have the same. Maybe it comes from your computer or something else than Scope. Why wouldn't I have the same issue than you ?
I don't know what problem it could be. If you didn't already, tell us which MB, windows, in one word config you're using and maybe we'll find what is the problem. And if you bought an Xite-1 just for having " hardware VA/Wavetable synth that I could build up to my own specs in a modular environment" it's a bit like using a bulldozer to plant tomatoes. And that's right : you can use VST's to have similar patch, with Reaktor, for instance.
I really wish one find your issue for you to fully take advantage of your Xite. Because patches like 3OscSynth, here, I can load maybe 6 or 7 with 8 voices in each. But believe me, here that patch works pretty well as you wish, there is necessarily something else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- Musica --> here ! ---< < < < < < < < < < < <
User avatar
faxinadu
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:12 am
Location: israel
Contact:

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by faxinadu »

haha hot damn jopo! thats one serious project window :0 <3
Scope, Android, Web, PC Plugins and Sounds:
http://www.oceanswift.net
Music
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/
JoPo
Posts: 2306
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: VRRAAaaooOôOooommmh
Contact:

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by JoPo »

:) ! Thanks, Faxi !

I wanted to say also : except asio i/o modules, none of the other modules in the project have been assigned to dsp. I tweak dsp assignment only when I get an error message.
But asio i/o have always to be assigned to DSP 2 ! That's important and since I do that, I don't have any error message often. When I had my Xite, I used to load fx processor insets in the mixer. And I had a lot of error messages. It's much much better for DSP power optimisation to use multifx modules outside the mixer (or other device) as on the jpg.

And this is why I made a Scope project template with all those multifx modules, already wired to the mixer and with text modules ("My name"), offered by Fra77, close to the multifx outputs to find back my children. The asio -> multifx -> mixer channels where is still "my name" written are not yet in use.
You can see the asio 2 dest module wired to the bass chain in order to record only bass before mixer while listening all. When you want to record anything, you just have to wire the asio dest module at the output you want to record. You can see HPLP 36-2 filter at the sidechain of a Vinco compressor and asio source module 32L, 31R & 31L wired to modulars for audio resolution modulation thanks to Silentway modules in Cubase --> ultra-précision & perfect timing. The EP88 soft tine channel is the last UVI electric piano sample library (really go0OÔÔOod !) that I can modulate each notes (in this case chords) thru the 8-8 IO modular IV. I builded some kind of tremolo / special autopan that is modulated by Silentway : depth increase or decrease thank to Silentway envelopes on each chord. This fx audio processor that woks synchronically with midi doesn't exist on the market, believe me ! :D
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- Musica --> here ! ---< < < < < < < < < < < <
zerocrossing
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:26 am

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by zerocrossing »

JoPo wrote:Ok. I made the test. I loaded 3OscSynth and changed one of the oscillator with the Waldorf one. I made that in the project I'm already working on. I assigned 10 voices to 3OscSynth without any problem or error message. As you can see in the jpg, I already have 3 other modular patches in this project. Each stereo channels going in the mixer have a multifx rack with different fx processors in them. In one multifx rack, there is 2 other multifx rack, like russian doll !! And you can see the power meter is far from its maximum : it's around its middle.
The attachment 3OscSynth.jpg is no longer available
Maybe the issues you are experimenting don't comes from Scope & Xite, otherwise, I would have the same. Maybe it comes from your computer or something else than Scope. Why wouldn't I have the same issue than you ?
I don't know what problem it could be. If you didn't already, tell us which MB, windows, in one word config you're using and maybe we'll find what is the problem. And if you bought an Xite-1 just for having " hardware VA/Wavetable synth that I could build up to my own specs in a modular environment" it's a bit like using a bulldozer to plant tomatoes. And that's right : you can use VST's to have similar patch, with Reaktor, for instance.
I really wish one find your issue for you to fully take advantage of your Xite. Because patches like 3OscSynth, here, I can load maybe 6 or 7 with 8 voices in each. But believe me, here that patch works pretty well as you wish, there is necessarily something else.
I do feel like I have a bulldozer to plant tomatoes, that's for sure. But, you know. Maybe I like to experiment with a lot of different types of sauce. I am Italian. :lol:

But the above seems far out of range of what is possible for me. I don't know why. My computer is a garden variety Dell 820 running at 2.6 ghz with... I think 6 gigs of ram. (I'm not near it) Windows 10 64 bit. I've not tried assigning the ASIO to DSP 2. Why would I? No one has ever mentioned it. I'll try it though. I'll post my simple project file. Maybe I'm doing something crazy? Seems very simple. I can tell you that I'm constantly getting messages telling me I'm out of SAT connections between DSPs even when I'm using devices like Vectron.
Attachments
image.png
image.png (615.64 KiB) Viewed 4241 times
JoPo
Posts: 2306
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: VRRAAaaooOôOooommmh
Contact:

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by JoPo »

!! Si ! Che uno grosso problemo !! You get error messages with this project ?!
Dsp 2 is in Xite for asio. Don't ask me why asio is not automatically assign to it but if you do so, it will help. Dsp 1 is for hardware i/o, so you can assign them to dsp 1. Those 2 dsp are the only ones I assigned in my project template and there assignment is stored with the project file.
DSP assignment.JPG
DSP assignment.JPG (30.67 KiB) Viewed 4223 times
You'll find more details in this note :
Dsp assignment.rar
(1.22 KiB) Downloaded 131 times
Then one has to find your computer issue and I don't know nothing about all MB on the market, I just know there is some good chipset for Scope and some not good. What is your MB chipset ? If your chipset belong to the bad ones, you'll have to change it !
Did you try to change the Xite pcie card slot ? You have to search / try different things... Maybe disable usb ports you don't need. Disable any system for electric power saving, disable system that can change pc cpu frequency... You can find all you must do here, on Z... Gary knows ! Gary ? Can you show us the tips link ?

That's good news ! That means it's not Scope / Xite fault but your computer and one can fix that. There is the possibility your Xite has a malfunction but I'm sure the manufactoring quality is very good but if after all the problem is still there, that might be the Xite. In this case, you'll have to send it back to Germany for reparing. But when you'll have find what is the problem, you'll see all what you can do with your S|C gear. The project you show us will be a small part amongst the rest...

Italy is where I'd like to live : I went for 6 months in Sicilia for sailing and 2 winters in Napoly with my napolitan girlfriend. Ok, it was 26 years ago... Con il capodanno and all the bombing city !! Incredible ! And it is the country where girls are the most beautiful and very gentle ! :roll: And I learned, in Napoly, to cook pasta & sauces ! :wink: And all italian bad words, which means I have a lot of vocabulary.
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- Musica --> here ! ---< < < < < < < < < < < <
zerocrossing
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:26 am

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by zerocrossing »

JoPo wrote:!! Si ! Che uno grosso problemo !! You get error messages with this project ?!
Dsp 2 is in Xite for asio. Don't ask me why asio is not automatically assign to it but if you do so, it will help. Dsp 1 is for hardware i/o, so you can assign them to dsp 1. Those 2 dsp are the only ones I assigned in my project template and there assignment is stored with the project file.
DSP assignment.JPG
You'll find more details in this note :
Dsp assignment.rar
Then one has to find your computer issue and I don't know nothing about all MB on the market, I just know there is some good chipset for Scope and some not good. What is your MB chipset ? If your chipset belong to the bad ones, you'll have to change it !
Did you try to change the Xite pcie card slot ? You have to search / try different things... Maybe disable usb ports you don't need. Disable any system for electric power saving, disable system that can change pc cpu frequency... You can find all you must do here, on Z... Gary knows ! Gary ? Can you show us the tips link ?

That's good news ! That means it's not Scope / Xite fault but your computer and one can fix that. There is the possibility your Xite has a malfunction but I'm sure the manufactoring quality is very good but if after all the problem is still there, that might be the Xite. In this case, you'll have to send it back to Germany for reparing. But when you'll have find what is the problem, you'll see all what you can do with your S|C gear. The project you show us will be a small part amongst the rest...

Italy is where I'd like to live : I went for 6 months in Sicilia for sailing and 2 winters in Napoly with my napolitan girlfriend. Ok, it was 26 years ago... Con il capodanno and all the bombing city !! Incredible ! And it is the country where girls are the most beautiful and very gentle ! :roll: And I learned, in Napoly, to cook pasta & sauces ! :wink: And all italian bad words, which means I have a lot of vocabulary.
I'll try the DSP assign. Maybe Gary mentioned that... I actually don't remember him saying anything about DSP assignment at all, though. As for mother board... I really have no idea. It's a Dell XPS desktop... I can't remember the model number. i7 running at 2.5 ghz. I do have to run Live in Windows 8 compatibility mode because of some issue with Windows 10 and ASIO drivers. To tell the truth, if I do indeed need a different computer, I'm going to abandon Sonic Core. That's far too much futzing, considering everything else seems to work fine on my machine. I can't have something that's that finicky in my world. I just want something solid that works. I like to reserve all my futzing around for actual playing/sound design stuff.
User avatar
faxinadu
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:12 am
Location: israel
Contact:

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by faxinadu »

with all due respect dude, if you wanna shoot, shoot don't talk :) the system works, and worth the "hassle" you perceive - but if not, and if it doesn't feel organic to you then move on, not everything is for everyone and that's fine :) you writing "yah i think gary mentioned dsp assignments" and then saying you never tried it well, what do you expect? :P
Scope, Android, Web, PC Plugins and Sounds:
http://www.oceanswift.net
Music
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by garyb »

JoPo
Posts: 2306
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: VRRAAaaooOôOooommmh
Contact:

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by JoPo »

Ah.. Ok.. I don't know what is your chipset but I don't understand either... A good MB is around 80€, Xite-1 is 3000, 3500€ ? Well.. I believe it shows how much you are far from imagine what there is in that box. If my Xite wouldn't work with my MB, I would change MB ! And not give up with Xite ! Because I know what it is.

Dell XPS desktop... Ok, let's have a 10s look on internet... Which Dell XPS desktop ? There are several models !
This one : http://www.dell.com/ed/p/xps-8700/pd is Intel® Z87 Express Chipset. Is it good for Scope, Gary ? :roll: :D There must be written somewhere on your computer which Dell XPS desktop model it is... A reference number, or something... "Dell XPS desktop" is not enough, on Dell site, all Dell XPS desktop have another number : http://www.dell.com/us/dfh/p/studio-xps-desktops.
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- Musica --> here ! ---< < < < < < < < < < < <
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by garyb »

Z87 should work well.
User avatar
Sounddesigner
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:06 pm

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by Sounddesigner »

I personally would not run SCOPE on X64 bit O/S's. That would help in deducing the problem at least. Someone else here mentioned that when that person left X64 bit O/S and went back to x32 bit all kinds of odd problems/quirks stopped. I suspect more weird stuff happens when using SCOPE in x64 bit. It works for some but I wouldn't touch it personally.

A few things I learned when dealing with computers, related hardware and software are - generally stick to what's 'tried and true'; don't get caught up in chasing after 'latest and greatest'; and KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). This doesn't just apply to SCOPE but to Native as well. I don't have more than 25 VST's in my arsenal at any time wich keeps things simple in multiple ways; I stay away from dongles and virtual-dongles and any other complex Copy-Protection; I don't use any other dsp cards just only SCOPE; etc etc. When I bring too many things into the equation I tend to have more problems. SCOPE has helped me DRAMATICALLY in simplifying by giving me A LOT in one unit and needing only one single thing to re-install for that A LOT, unlike VST's were you have to re-install many plugins individually when you re-install your O/S wich can take many days if you own a lot of VST's plus several other problems. The more things in the equation the more difficuly it can be to figure out problems, plus more complexity with computer stuff = more bugs/conflict. When you do get everything working in harmony SCOPE can be rock solid and predictable unlike random crashes I've gotten from Native DAW'S, and VST's at times.
Last edited by Sounddesigner on Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
zerocrossing
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:26 am

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by zerocrossing »

faxinadu wrote:with all due respect dude, if you wanna shoot, shoot don't talk :) the system works, and worth the "hassle" you perceive - but if not, and if it doesn't feel organic to you then move on, not everything is for everyone and that's fine :) you writing "yah i think gary mentioned dsp assignments" and then saying you never tried it well, what do you expect? :P
Except that's not what I wrote. I clearly said he might have but I had no memory of it. Reading is fundamental!
zerocrossing
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:26 am

Re: Modular losing voices.

Post by zerocrossing »

I believe we went through those when we installed Scope the first time, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Post Reply