Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

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Bud Weiser
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by Bud Weiser »

gruebleengourd wrote:I use the PCI cards so I can't comment on anything xite, but I had a mysterious troubles with various zarg synths, beyond loss of sample playback ability, until I went back to 32 bit windows. PCI and 32 bit works very well.
The big ZARG synths, especially Solaris v5 (and v4.x as well !), Rotor EX and Quantum Wave,- all introduce issues on XITE-1 and accompanied by a myriad of warning messages.
Some presets work, others don´t,- low polyphony down to one or 2 voices only.
That´s on 32Bit Win XP SP3 system and SCOPE 5.1 already.

Quantum Wave SE is announced to run better just because it´s only ONE synth in the shell vs four,- but advertisement is typically not reality.

The small ZARG synths work for me, but also not perfect.
All kind of very audible artefacts when switching presets are present always,- p.ex. when the recall of a new preset offloads some filter module from DSP being used in previous preset, then loads another one and so on.
In such cases, load times are also some kind of puzzle and might end with the device not finishing that cycle followed by removing it from SCOPE environment and reload (if you want that after the frustration).
It´s the modularity and complexity of modulation routings in ZARG synths causing issues on Creamware and Sonic Core DSP systems.
It´s a well known issue, at least since XITE exists,- and was already explained by John Bowen himself.
ZARG synths can bring any multi PCI card system as well as XITE to it´s limits and beyond, especially when you want more than a monophonic performance.

Not every developer of devices for the SCOPE platform owns XITE-1 and SDK 5.x.
Many devices developed w/ SDK 4 and running on XITE show, sometimes only very small, issues.
The last one I tested was CWM DAW Mix 32 which stopped working w/ 27 ASIO wired stereo channels activated, no FX, dynamics or EQ inserted at all and there was no way to get around it.
So, 26 channels w/ nothing inserted,- wanna insert something, well ... reduce count of channels again.
It´s just only an example and nothing against developers trying to create and deliver free or commercial devices for the community and SCOPE,- most of the devices ARE usable up to a given point,- but for perfection on XITE, they should be developed on XITE and using SDK 5.x.

Loading S|C stock devices like STM 24/48, Minimax, Profit-5, ProTone, Prodyssey and stock FX and dynamics is a different and much more stress-free experience.

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U
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garyb
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by garyb »

Zarg synths were not made with the SDK. they were made with the first version of the DP, like 15 years ago. John has not updated them.

Bud, that there are issues with Zarg synths on XITE is well known, as you say. they were never made for flipping presets in a performance. they do not allow a large amount of polyphony. they should work, for the most part. presets using the wave oscs will crash in 64bit, but again the synths should work. if one needs polyphony, then they are not a good choice. the sounds are great, however, even with a couple of voices. it depends on what one wants.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by Bud Weiser »

garyb wrote:Zarg synths were not made with the SDK. they were made with the first version of the DP, like 15 years ago. John has not updated them.
Thx for the info Gary, I didn´t imagine John never used a SDK, regardless which version.
garyb wrote: Bud, that there are issues with Zarg synths on XITE is well known, as you say. they were never made for flipping presets in a performance.
Well, I don´t use ´em in performances at all, but also in the studio, when switching presets manually, just only for auditioning those, a lot of digital noises appear, sometimes that loud I fear for my speakers.
It really depends on the synth and patches though.
garyb wrote: ... they do not allow a large amount of polyphony.
Well, in my former post I said "when you want more than a monophonic performance".
I´d don´t call that large polyphony.
Large polyphony today is 127 - 256 voices, like in Kawai DPs and/or Roland Jupiter-80 or such.
OTOH, the new analogues, DSI (Sequential) Prophet-6 and (Oberheim) OB-6 come w/ 6 voices only again,- but they deliver all the time.
So let´s agree on anything below 5 voices for a polysynth is unacceptable.
IMO also 6 voices is when using long release times and there are no extra voices available to prevent voice stealing.

AND,- what I said above rules for the big ZARG synths only !!!! Solaris, Quantum Wave & Rotor EX.

In projects not only using the hardware- and software- I/Os, a mixer and only 1 synth, I get more polyphony (5-8 voices) from Ambient, Dark Star and Orion Custom,- the "sc" versions !
Comb Plus Pro, even discontinued, works too.
Pro-One v3 and Prowave v1.2.1 also.
Red Dwarf EX not so much but better than the big ones.

I think it´s also not unimportant how one looks at virtual synts, especially when it comes to emulations and when the (potential) user is coming from the hardware world and used the originals in the past or. as a youngster, has some knowledge about former analog synths.
In that case, at least I´m satisfied w/ usage of Minimax and ProTone/ Pro One v3 monophonic and will never run into issues.
Same w/ Profit-5 and Prowave v1.2.1,- 5 voices, fine,- like the original.
Prodyssey is great too,- 4-5 voices are really o.k. because the original was truly monophonic and "duophonic" just only in some kind of paraphonic mode.

Now, it´s interesting, the synthwise best running stuff on XITE-1 are mostly S|C stock devices you buy w/ the hardware and SCOPE software.

Solaris v5 is a $299,- device.
That´s not cheap for a DSP plugin anyway, but the performance is REALLY disappointing.

Switching patches manually or via MIDI and halfway artefact free as well as fast as less than 1 sec. IS a most basic requirement since the MIDI pioneer times in the 80s, may that be in a studio or live.
In fact, today´s demands are much higher,- seamless patch switching is what everyone wants.
garyb wrote: ... they should work, for the most part.
Is that a sales argument ?
Do you buy a car, really looking good, but which makes it only for 50 yards at the speed of a snail and for the price of 50 gallons gas on 1 mile ?
garyb wrote: ...the sounds are great, however, ...
Well, that´s true,- and because it sounds great it would be awesome when running flawlessly, isn´t it ?

B.t.w. it doesn´t do "a couple of voices" on my system,- it sometimes doesn´t load a patch even w/ the polyphony of "1".
There is no guarantee it works,- I tried everything and have all the files necessary.
Sometimes it does w/ 1-3 voices and sometimes it doesn´t at all because it loads so long I give up then.
In fact I gave up using the big devices because it saves lifetime.

We´re in the problem solving thread here,- that´s why I posted.
My recommendation is not buying/using the big Zarg devices for/on XITE-1D and XITE-1.
I was surprised reading Quantum Wave SE,- a lighter version,- introduces issues again.

XITE owners or potential users better invest money in devices running flawlessly and to their full potential,- and not only "for the most part".

Please don´t take that as a offense, it´s just only my opinion and nothing personnel.

I find it a bit sad, new users buying the excellent sounding and great build quality S|C hardware and SCOPE, quickly run into compatibility issues when buying a 3rd party flagship synth and then recognize it was developed w/ tools from "15 years ago and never updated",- probably never will.
Well, Solaris was updated, but not in regards of optimization, just only feature updates making it more complex and running worst.

Anyway,- I hope SCOPE will be updated one day and before I die.

:)

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U
hubird

Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by hubird »

+1 :)
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garyb
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by garyb »

a new version of Scope won't matter in this case.
it is the plugin itself that must be updated, and it's not a SonicCore product to update. as has been noted, the SC synths don't have these problems because they have been updated...

if the synth isn't worth using in it's present config, at whatever price, then....

demos are AWAYS available before purchase, so there's no secret.
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by yayajohn »

Bud; Sorry to hear about your performance issues with the Zarg synths. They have been a topic here for a long time as you know. Why Sonic Core still has them listed for sale (at a premium price) on their website I really don't know. At this point they really belong in the same category as the Wavelength synths. I really don't agree with you that the Zarg synths are the "flagship" synths for Scope. Prodessey, Minimax, Profit, Vectron are, at least from my perspective.

Just for the record, the performance of the Zarg synths on my system appears to be a lot better than on yours. I am getting 5-6 poly on most patches on Solaris 5 and QW. Some patches I have to bump the poly down, wait for the patch to load and then bump it back up. Not an ideal way, but it works. This applies to my Xite-1 Win7 64bit and PCI 26DSP Win10 32bit systems.
Of course with high load synths like these, I have little to nothing else running on the system except the mixer and in/out modules. (44.1kHz)
Puzzling why your Xite performance would be so much different?
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by garyb »

the prices are John's.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by Bud Weiser »

yayajohn wrote: I really don't agree with you that the Zarg synths are the "flagship" synths for Scope.
I didn´t say they are.
I said "flagship synth of 3rd party company" ...
At least Solaris v5 is Zarg´s flagship synth,- no ?
yayajohn wrote: Just for the record, the performance of the Zarg synths on my system appears to be a lot better than on yours. I am getting 5-6 poly on most patches on Solaris 5 and QW. Some patches I have to bump the poly down, wait for the patch to load and then bump it back up. Not an ideal way, but it works. This applies to my Xite-1 Win7 64bit and PCI 26DSP Win10 32bit systems.
Well,- it seems to be common w/ software systems different users report different performance.
DSP or native ...
yayajohn wrote: Of course with high load synths like these, I have little to nothing else running on the system except the mixer and in/out modules. (44.1kHz)
Puzzling why your Xite performance would be so much different?
I tried everything here, even Dante´s DSP cycle reduced patches.
They all were test scenarios ...

In real world, I already have a project running in SCOPE, STM-mixer loaded and ASIO channels coming in from native DAW, XITE analog I/Os and ADAT modules in addition because there´s a AD/DA converter connected to XITE,- sometimes Reason rewired to native DAW app too.
Now, when you want one of the big Zargs, it´s a no-go,- at least Quantum Wave and Rotor EX.
Solaris sometimes works but only monophonic.

I rarely use a machine w/ SCOPE and 1 synth only.
In regards of ZARG Solaris that would be insane.
For the price of a computer, the Solaris device and a XITE-1 you can easily buy a hardware Solaris and fly w/ a better synth than the ZARG Solaris is.
When using computers, they should perfor different tasks simultaneously and DSP systems too.

I believe some machines/mobos might deliver better performance.
I´m on Win XP32Bit and socket 775 motherboards,- but both machines offer PCIe standard 1.5 only.
Can be PCIe 2.0 eventually helps w/ better data thruput.

Actually I cannot test anything anyway, my studio isn´t set up again and it will need some time until it is.

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by Bud Weiser »

garyb wrote:a new version of Scope won't matter in this case.
True, but you know I hope for it in general because SCOPE 6 w/ Copperlan embedded seemed to be very tempting.
And I really believe it will come ... but not sure it will come before I die ... :D
garyb wrote: it is the plugin itself that must be updated, and it's not a SonicCore product to update. as has been noted, the SC synths don't have these problems because they have been updated...
Yep, I agree. I was in all the discussions before as you know,- but the topic seems to come up again and again, so we answer ... :)
garyb wrote: demos are AWAYS available before purchase, so there's no secret.
QFT !

:)

Bud
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gruebleengourd
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by gruebleengourd »

Another thing to note is that, while they are all different synths, there is a great degree of overlap. If Ambient RD and Prowave are both running with ok polyphony on X-ite ( I don't know, I use a big PCI setup) then I think you've got most of the bases covered for zarg synths. The bigger Zargs are largely just *bigger*. It's too bad if QWave SE doesn't run too well though, as it's nice to have the dedicated wave envelope, but other than that you can get most of the functionality in Prowave.
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by jksuperstar »

Prowave has the dedicated wave envelope. It just doesn't have dedicated screen real estate.
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by dawman »

If you want the best synths for DSP optimization Prodyssey and Minimax are really good.
But I can make large synths in Modular that I think sound remarkable.
Made an OBX and a great Odyssey from Assafs Modular class.
The modules in Modular IV are optimized so 16 voice synths are easy.

I prefer using 3 x different 8 voice synths in Modular IV.
Its really the only way to get all 12 x ADSP 21369s over 70%.

I load the STM 2448.
Room 5.1
Masterb Pro X
Pattern Delay
Multitap Delay
Master Chorus
Vinco
SBX
Distortion
16 x Sofclips
2 x TC Fireworx


This assigns itself to DSP 18 using 5900.
B2003 goes to DSP 17.


Now load up Modular Patches.
1st synth assign to DSP 15 after it laods.
2nd synth assigned to DSP 11 after loading.
3rd synth assigned to DSP 7.

Raise polyphony on 1st synth until DSP 15/16 and 17 fill.
Same for 2nd synth
Same for 3rd synth.

I do like Solaris from Bowen.
But mine is hardware.
Then theres a CODE 8 OD
Ambika
FS1r
HX-3

Dont need no stinking Zargs
zerocrossing
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by zerocrossing »

yayajohn wrote:Why Sonic Core still has them listed for sale (at a premium price) on their website I really don't know. At this point they really belong in the same category as the Wavelength synths. I really don't agree with you that the Zarg synths are the "flagship" synths for Scope. Prodessey, Minimax, Profit, Vectron are, at least from my perspective.
Yeah, Zarg is way out of line asking for what he's asking for those instruments. I agree with that. I've more or less decided to pass on them. $179 for ProWave does not make sense when you look at a synth like Sugar Byte's new instrument Factory which retails for $139. It just doesn't.

I'd disagree with you on the Prodessey, Minimax, Profit and Vectron. I think the flagship synth for XITE-1 is really the Modular 4/Flexor combo. I could replace all the Sonic Core synths you mentioned with native plug ins, but there really isn't a polyphonic modular system like Modular 4. I've come to find that it is really the main reason to own an XITE. For me, at least.

If I were king of Scope, first thing I'd do is make all the modules conform to a UI standard. The old ones are horrible. Then, I'd market XITE as a virtual modular environment/effect processor/audio interface. Include all the Creamware stuff too, but that stuff just isn't going to be interesting to most people who live in a world that has Oddity 2, Monark, Mini V, Prophet V and dozens of other really cool virtual instruments. Modular 4 is really the differentiator that Sonic Core brings to the table. It took me a while to get that.
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garyb
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by garyb »

i just think of Scope as audio tools, personally.
i came to Scope as an audio engineer.
synths are just additional audio.
fun guy at a synthesist's convention...
zerocrossing
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by zerocrossing »

dawman wrote:If you want the best synths for DSP optimization Prodyssey and Minimax are really good.
But I can make large synths in Modular that I think sound remarkable.
Made an OBX and a great Odyssey from Assafs Modular class.
The modules in Modular IV are optimized so 16 voice synths are easy.

I prefer using 3 x different 8 voice synths in Modular IV.
Its really the only way to get all 12 x ADSP 21369s over 70%.

I load the STM 2448.
Room 5.1
Masterb Pro X
Pattern Delay
Multitap Delay
Master Chorus
Vinco
SBX
Distortion
16 x Sofclips
2 x TC Fireworx


This assigns itself to DSP 18 using 5900.
B2003 goes to DSP 17.


Now load up Modular Patches.
1st synth assign to DSP 15 after it laods.
2nd synth assigned to DSP 11 after loading.
3rd synth assigned to DSP 7.

Raise polyphony on 1st synth until DSP 15/16 and 17 fill.
Same for 2nd synth
Same for 3rd synth.

I do like Solaris from Bowen.
But mine is hardware.
Then theres a CODE 8 OD
Ambika
FS1r
HX-3

Dont need no stinking Zargs
Can a man down on his luck get those Modular patches? :)
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Problems loosing channels after Rotor SE demo.

Post by Bud Weiser »

zerocrossing wrote:
Can a man down on his luck get those Modular patches? :)
Yeah, that would be great !

:)

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U
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