Please choose: Sony MDR-7506 vs. Beyerdynamic DT770

[Nestor]

I am right now into one of these headphones: Sony MDR-7506 or Beyerdynamic DT770

Which one would you recommend for mastering purposes?

[valis]

No to the Sony, too colored. There was a special Japanese version issued at some point that their actual hifi audio engineers tweaked to be good, I forget the model name now but you could only order it from a specific shop in NYC for US orders (it would be different for you, obviously).

When buying studio cans in general, ask yourself what impedance you need based on what you will be connecting it to, and whether you need open-backed (generally most transparent but bass light), close-backed (bass heavy or boomy, but isolated for recording monitoring situations), or semi-open (best of both worlds).

I have some semi-open back Beyerdynamic DT-880 Pro's (no longer made) that are 80ohm, they work great off my main mixing board.

[Nestor]

Cheers Valis

Yes, I considered getting the 80 ohms.

You surprised me telling the MDR-7506 are "colored", people recommend them for being "flat", but you know, people talk without measuring anything in most cases, thank you for that one, very important information.

The DT770 Pro 80ohms seems to be a better option overall for mixing and mastering, slightly more expensive.

Well, I'm a closed can user truly, I don't mind to work with them this way, I am so used that I tend to take care of the possible differences.

I will probably include here some Audio Technica too that are about the same price and many people say they are the standard.
Cheers

[Nestor]

I think I should consider this pair too:
Audio-Technica ATH-M50x

[valis]

MH50x would be a tad bass light in my experience, but that's also based on preferences and style of music I do.

The MDR-CD900ST are the closest ones available to the Japanese issued Sony tweaked cans I mentioned, both they and the MDR-CD780's share the same thinner foam surround as the 7506's.

Keep in mind that what becomes 'studio reference' often means that people find them readily available and so they become a reference because of both how common they are, and how affordable they are to replace if they're needed as a 'studio standard'. Reference the original Yamaha white cone NS-10's: long considered a studio standard, they were popularized by Yamaha sending pairs to well known LA studios and the like to ensure they were showing up in magazine shots of those studios, others bought them and engineers learned to enjoy finding them everywhere as a common reference. I would still personally prefer a better fidelity monitor to work with and keep reference sets around for what they're good for.

ON this note, I have 3 pairs of the Sonys which have the same driver but significantly better foam surround (two V6's and a V600, which has a higher impedance).. The V600's are now discontinued, and all of these (and more) share the same 40mm driver and ALMOST same plastic surround, and they sound the same overall with minor differences you can quibble about. Some claim the foam surround makes a difference in bass response, but this is typical with less leakage in general with any headphone or earbud so should be obvious). In practice, I don't find as much difference between the V600, the V6 and the 7506 as you find in comparison threads like this one: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sony-ca ... 00.250848/

The reason I have 2 pairs of the V60's is for dj'ing live as you can crank them (due to the low end response and volume on a DJ mixer with approx 45ohm impedance compared to cans that are 60-80 ohm norm). The V600's are better for isolated studio recording, and receive less wear since I save them for that role and visiting musicians. I've had the 7506 and found the smaller ear muffs were uncomfortable for me, not just due to my larger head size but because it means the actual drilled grill over the driver rests on the ear itself and causes rubbing over time. So the bigger foam is useful even as a replacement for the 7506's (some also swap a beyer foam surround onto the Sonys to mitigate the ear rubbing issue).

Beyer's soft velour ear muffs are similar to the V600's in that they separate the driver's drilled cover from the ear, and give longterm comfort. With ALL of my headphones I periodically replace the foam--or velour--surround and so plan for this as well by grabbing a spare pair within the first few months of purchase and putting it in7to storage for use when you have enough wear to warrant the replacement.

[valis]

A good way to evaluate this for mixing purposes is to layer a kick and tom, which have about 1 octave of separation. If you can differentiate these while alternating with an E1/F1/G1 bass note (not as subbass, the lowest note on an electric bass is E1 etc) and clearly make out the tom when taking it in and out, you have clear bass response. When the tom and the kick are hard to distinguish, the bass response imho is boomy. Muddy would be inability to differentiate the bass notes versus the kick, and this is assuming a kick with a prominent peak of approx 75-90hz as in rock music or slower EDM (Dnb and etc will pitch up kick/snare and highpass it).

[w_ellis]

This guy measures a huge number of different headphones: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/he ... nded-ones/

Worth checking that site out

[Nestor]

Thank you brothers for your knowledge and ideas, the info, everything is great, I'm learning so much.

This one is truly important, I recommend you to watch it, it is worth every second:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbYVGG6ceTo

[Nestor]

A WIDER ANALYSIS OF HEADPHONES, AS I HAVE LEARNED THOUGH INVESTIGATION IN 2023:


• Your head and your inner ears are different from your neighbor’, headphones will sound slightly different from person to person, and, every set of headphones is different to each other, even being the same model and trademark, they all sound slightly different too, like guitars and basses, for example.

• There are more people listening to music today than in the rest of our human history, but most people listen to music through headphones, and the use of cans is increasing by the day. What you do in your mixes and masters will be listened at, in most cases, through headphones.


• IMPORTANT NOTE: There is a risk of harming your ear losing frequencies for the rest of your life, (and there is no way back if you lose them). This can happen if you monitor too loud and for many hours in a row. The general medical recommendation is traying to mix at lower volumes and rest every now and then your ears, instate of going on for so many hours without stop. ¡I have to do it because even if I already know it, I get involved with the music I’m doing, totally forgetting my ear health! Please, don’t do the same.

• Most commercial headphones are conceived toward increasing bass: “X-Bass”, “Boom-Bass”, etc., etc., because this is the commercial trend, but they do not represent balance and quality. I guess we all know very well this one but here it is nevertheless as a reminder.

• Engineers recommend to A-B when mixing or mastering with headphones as it is easier to lose ground with headphones than it is with speakers, you need to move and listen from different sources if at all possible.

• Most headphones ranging from 50 to 200 USD are good in their own realm, but there is NONE of them in the market to be taken as the “only” element to reference the complete spectrum of the material you are working on, you need speakers or, at least, several headphones sets to judge with more objectivity what you want to do.

• Nevertheless, you can nowadays mix and master with headphones with amazing accuracy and without the need of expensive speakers, (if you choose the right ones of course). We have reached the point of being able to mix with only headphones, as long as you get into the 300 USD price range and you choose the correct technology. The following headphones are equivalent to having a pair of high-quality speakers in front of you, or even, having several of them at your disposal. It is, so far, the only pair available with such technology, I guess we will have many more in the future, this are the Steven Slate Audio VSX cans. These headphones are creating a revolution in the mastering industry!


• If you are going to buy headphones for mixing and mastering, like me now, you have to know that paying a higher price will not mean necessarily getting a better sound quality, this matter is extremely subjective and complex, too many things to consider, but this is the basic point. You need TOOLS, not headphones, and each TOOL solves a different problem. You could eventually get a 30 to 50 dollar can that could solve a problem a very expensive one cannot, that’s the idea. It is not the concept of “better” vs “worse” in terms of money or trademarks, it is rather getting the right “tools” for the job.

I am glad I’ve paid attention to all this stuff; I love to learn in those terms. That said, it is not worth to kill yourself searching for the perfect pair of cans, they do not exist, except if you go with the Steven Slate Audio VSX cans, that are for real perfect, but quite expensive. Some engineers have tried these new cans in a total skeptic way, with a reason, the concept presented by Slate has already been tried several times and it was a scam. Well, not this time, they DO work, and so they say it is crazy how accurate the sound is. I have not tried them myself, but I trust several of the guys that gave me the evidence.

What is happening to those who are working with these cans is that after several hours of mixing they forget they are wearing headphones, and when trying to reach for the volume controls of the speakers they realize they have been in headphones all the time, and voila, there it is the reality of the VSX.

This are not my words, they say so, some engineers are angry to have spent many thousands of dollars in speakers that can be replaced now with a 300 dollars can, this is what they say themselves. Much to be learned here. I will keep my investigation going on, cheers

[Nestor]

Well, unfortunately, I cannot afford the Steven Slate Audio VSX cans, because these are the way to go, instate, nevertheless, what I think are the best for my purpose are the DT 770, I will see.

[garyb]

speakers cannot be replaced by headphones unless headphones are the primary way of listening to music.

[Nestor]

I understand, you mean that if you build a master from headphones it makes sense to keep it in the same realm, so they will properly traduce into similar acoustics, that is: cans into cans. That is an stablished truth since immemorial. But, I don't know, Steven Slate Audio VSX headphones are fake news so? Serious engeneers are saying it can replace speakers. If you could try them out it would be great, I don't have the chance here.

[valis]

There is no such thing, every generation of devices some new claim is made at being able to correct a room or emulate speakers. From impulse responses to crossover networks with feedback loops, they emulate the effects intended to some degree but also introduce new issues along with this.

Headphones simply cannot achieve a flat response (first of all), even with correction to smooth out the issues from the drivers and small enclosure themselves (which is why I prefer semi-open), they still cannot account for the differences in fit and ear canal etc. A room+speakers presents similar issues, but monitors with multiple drivers do avoid some of the IMD issues that small driver (headphone) has with attempting to reproduce all frequencies, etc etc.

Speakers in a room are IMPERFECT in one way, headphones in another, and so on. Why not use both instead of attempting emulation? Reference in your car, make friends with a local hifi shop, club owner and so on. Get to know these systems with material you're familiar with, then use them with your own material. Imagine that not only will you now have a greater number of reference systems, but also a greater variety of places and people to explore, things to do, conversations to have and so on.

[w_ellis]

Recommend the Hiphop Evolution show on Netflix for lots of reasons, but particularly interesting to hear about the evolving production techniques.

It highlighted this same point of mixing for where your audience is. If they're listening on crappy ear buds, check what it sounds like there. For A Tribe Called Quest they wanted to make sure it would make the Jeeps shake

[Nestor]

Why not use both instead of attempting emulation? Reference in your car, make friends with a local hifi shop, club owner and so on. Get to know these systems with material you're familiar with, then use them with your own material. Imagine that not only will you now have a greater number of reference systems, but also a greater variety of places and people to explore, things to do, conversations to have and so on.

This is simply great! Love your advice Valis, cheers for it.

Ok, you guys, Gary and Valis, as I understand, you both have a long experience in the studio, I don't, I'm a musician but not an engineer, so I know you are not talking for free but out of direct experience, which is the best you can get, to talk with authority.

I will rephrase it with a final conclusion, simply because it is true, it is not what I want it to be, it is happening in the world all around us, in the market itself, I have informed myself very well to see if it was true or not, and it is true, here it is this kind rephrased conclusion:

"It is physically impossible to replace speakers for headphones, regardless, there are many professional engeneers mixing and mastering on headphones in todays world" .


We understand here the word "professional" as someone who earns his living along the year, only doing music.

I do not resist myself on having speakers, I wish I had. The problem is that you need room treatment, then, at least, one pair of good flat studio speakers for it to be effective. I would love to have studio speakers but I am traveling all around the world very often, so I have to leave everything behind, this is too expensive, so I don't do room treatment or get studio speakers anymore that is why I have such a keen interest in doing my mixes and masters through headphones, it is a matter of personal convenience as a consequence of the way I live. Nevertheless, I have to say I have produced many pieces of music in the last years, all of them mixed with headphones only and they are sounding somewhere out there without complains. I guess they might be crappy but acceptable, don't know.

There is a war right now between many musicians when talking about what seems to be "the" standard in simulations and room measurements, I'm talking about Sonarworks SoundID Reference software. For some, there is nothing like it for others it is a disgrace. I guess the tools are there but it is not that easy to use them because there are far too many parameters and issues to be solved, but if you know how to, with these tools you definitely can.

It is happening, right now, something similar to the war it existed for a few years between analogue versus digital, remember? Perhaps, because we are too close to cross the barrier like we did with the digital world. Even guys like Pensado are using VST plugins today alongside their expensive outboard gear.

I have had two pairs of studio monitors in the past, many, many years ago. The first was a small but good Sony pair, so crisp so clear, the second one was much better, a pair of Yamaha hs or something similar, I don't remember, very well balanced, did some room treatment too, VERY expensive materials you cannot use a second time in most cases, then leaved everything behand. I will never do that again. I would be happy getting a way to do everything with headphones better than what I can do now, I would be happy with that already. Now you understand the reasons and the story behind it.

Thank you w_ellis for the link on headphones you posted, it is amazing. Never seen before such a detailed info on practically all the most interesting cans out there.

[garyb]

room software is useless.
making a good room is easy and can be relatively cheap, once you know the principles. learning your speakers is the thing.

if playback is on headphones, headphones are great for mixing, etc. if playback is also on speakers, you better use speakers, at least to check what happens when the speakers interact with each other. this, like a good room, cannot be modeled with software, regardless of what anyone says.

[Nestor]

Thank you Gary, that's very clear for me. I guess I will have to use Valis' advice as I will be traveling again probably sooner than later. Thank you for your explanation

I will keep checking, for the time being, which will be my additional headphone. I already have a Sony CD250 Digital Reference, which are nice for general purpose and well balanced to check a final mix, they are very old and still sounding like if it was the first day, very good image, but not as detailed as to apply EQs. Then I have a closed back can with which I record everything, I really like them very, very much, the Sennheiser HD 280 Pro, I have had a very good experience with those ones, particularly, recording voices, because you can have them very loud while you shout out your rock lyrics with "almost" no leakage, there is some, but minimal.

Speakers, well , I have a Samsung HiFi system, which is far from being flat or anything like that, then I have some modern players, you know, this little boxes and the like, one of them (Chinese), sounds pretty good and it is nice as a final reference, but not ideal for sure, this is what I have right now.

I'll let you know which headphones I will finally be taken.

[valis]

I have some small crappy Pioneer 3" speakers I've had for 25 years now, they make great boombox/low end bluetooth references.

I have some "Akai" crummy home speakers (used with an inexpensive rack amp) that handle the 'average home entertainment' reference fine.

My TV has a soundar for when I want to check that...

Currently I'm in a temporary residence so I'm using my IK Multimedia iLoud Micro Monitors which are tiny but flat and don't have tons of bass.

My Mackie HR824's and 12" sub are packed away, as are my JBL LSR 305's.

I have 3 sets of headphones (Beyer DT-880 Pro, Sony MDRV600, Sony MDR-CD900ST with V600 pads).

I have WAY too many corded earbuds (JBL, Sony, Monoprice, Logitech, Apple etc etc) as well as a few bluetooth ones (used for convenience with my mobile devices).

-----------------------

The point? Don't worry about perfect rooms (there's no such thing) or headphones. Don't worry about perfect 'correction', or even music! Just make things you like to hear that translates well to a variety of systems it's likely to be used on, and you'll collect enough hardware over time (as my list suggests). Most of my stuff either stays in the cabinet, or currently in storage.

[Nestor]

Don't worry about perfect rooms (there's no such thing) or headphones. Don't worry about perfect 'correction', or even music! Just make things you like to hear that translates well to a variety of systems it's likely to be used on.

Yes, exactly, this is what I try to do, I see it in the same way. Most of my music, in general I believe, it is listened through headphones.

Thank you brother Valis for this one, very nice of you you made a list of your devices. It is very cool to know about it because it gives me perspective to better understand the concept you are explaining.

I guess many of my contributions, projects, music, that I have done and mastered myself, were probably well accepted because people do not know a thing about acoustics, but so far so good, finger crossed.

Talking about the next cans, I am very leaned forward the DT 770 80 ohm.

[Nestor]

if playback is on headphones, headphones are great for mixing, etc. if playback is also on speakers, you better use speakers.

It makes total sense to me, yes.