VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

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anon
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VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by anon » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:17 am

Hi, I'm using Scope 5.1 PCI on XP32 live for a rock band (so no mouse) succesfully and now I want to use VDAT instead of ASIO/Reaper to simplify things.

Problem is how to use transport controls without the mouse, as VCR does not work for me.
Thanks

nebelfuerst
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by nebelfuerst » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:14 pm

just use the VRC-S to do this.
VRC-S allows to use CC and it can control the VDAT.

dawman
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by dawman » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:46 pm

It works, I just can’t remember my set up from back then.
I used it for background vocals and sound effects like rain, wind, etc.

Had such a great focused sound compared to VST Hosts.

I’d love to see that fixed soneday.

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astroman
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by astroman » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:27 am

According to my experience it's not the device itself but the Windoze runtime (or registry) stuff that stalls it.
I had it crashing with my first 5.1 install on XP, too. Then got it working, now it's crashing again while loading dll files.
My XP box had a lot of changes over time, so it's impossible now to reconstruct it's history.
Last edited by astroman on Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

anon
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by anon » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:54 am

VCR-S does not work for me. In a empty project i drop and connect VDAT and VCR-S, connect them but i dont get respnse from VCR-S: buttons dont respond, no errors, no midi out on midi monitor, it says 0 DAT devices connected and VDAT still says is master... it seems totally dead except for the eject button that ligths stop button, but thats all.

VDAT seems to work well but it has no midi, only clk in for VCR.

Anybody using/used VCR-S?

if not, maybe VDAT can be encapsulated into a new MIDI dev with SDK?
Or make a different new dev that converts midi to clk ADAT protocol control signals to replace VCR. This is simpler as dont need sync or clock, just a tool to interfacing VDAT with MIDI CC.

Thanks

anon
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by anon » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:01 am

https://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/electro/lrcdecoder/

It seems the alesis lrc doesnt use sync nor master/slave options so if I can connect a modular shell to the clk input of the VDAT, then from modular modules I could easily control VDAT buttons while it still syncs internally from Scope.

I'll see what can i connect to clk input... audio input? BCM "data" conector? I dont know what clk input is.

dawman
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by dawman » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:49 pm

Look for the Modular Click Sync patch Alfonso made or it might have been Red Muze.
I’ve got it on a machine at my house but I won’t be back there until next weekend.
Remind me with a pm and I;; try and dig it up.

I had lol of this working back when I had the 32bit PCI Cards.

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dante
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by dante » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:09 pm

Check out maustrax and my hints here

https://www.scopeusers.com/ScopeRise/is ... at_mst.htm - select 'MausTrax Hints and Tips' - read the gordongekko part followed by my setup method - see if that works.

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Bud Weiser
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:50 pm

dante wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:09 pm
Check out maustrax and my hints here

https://www.scopeusers.com/ScopeRise/is ... at_mst.htm - select 'MausTrax Hints and Tips' - read the gordongekko part followed by my setup method - see if that works.
When clicking on "Babaorum´s Tutorial" tab, it leaves a blank page here (Win7 Pro, Firefox) ...
Link broken ?
Interesting and informative article nonetheless !

thx

:)

Bud

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dante
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by dante » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:53 pm


anon
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by anon » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:30 am

I have found that the VDAT clk input can be connected to a audio signal coming from a custom modular. Since VDAT can be controlled from this input, there must be any signal I can send to remote control it.

It seems that alesis lrc sent, for example, 1308 Ohm for REC action but i don't know if the Modular can manage these kind of signals and also I don't know if VDAT has this funcionality implemented (lrc used a jack, not the sync connector).

I tought about reverse engineering the clk out of VDAT but it cannot generate commands as a master, according to manuals only VCR can do this.

So i don't know how to replicate this (simple) electronic circuit in Modular (can it be done?) and I don't know how to test VDAT for debug.

Also maybe is needed to manually open tapes at each boot (VDAT doesn't boot in its saved state) and theres no remote for this action.

So I give up with unnattended basic use of VDAT inside of SCOPE while wait for some basic documentation.

Thanks for help

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astroman
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by astroman » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:55 am

Did you consider a trackball as a mouse replacement ? ;)
There also might be screen automation apps that map mouse action to keyboard commands.
With a gaming pad type keyboard this could be quite convenient.

ps: I'm tempted atm to grab my BRC from the attic and try it with 5.1 (which I never did).
In Scope 4 it used to loose connection quite often in the middle of a session and was too unreliable for screenless operation.
Otherwise it worked quite well - but you probably wouldn't want to lug that brick around for gigs :D

anon
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by anon » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:10 am

Thanks Astroman. I have a AHK script that recognizes visually and clics buttons from midi input using screen captures.
But I don't want to use it for just one button or device, I remember i tried a complete solution for all scope devs but had problems with devices not using screenset capabilities, if I remember well... Also i have developed big java code using OpenCV. Now im triyng the js plugins editor in Reaper for different things. Reaper is (also) a great audio automation tool and i prefer to have Reaper loaded, better than java machine or windows apps.

ps: If you get VDAT control from BRC, we can try to sniff control signals to learn how remote works, and replace BRC with a Modular. Pls tell me if you try it.

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astroman
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by astroman » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:22 am

no need to wait, the physical BRC does control VDAT, I've used it with a Syncplate
(but I don't remember the routing, in particular if VRC was required or not...)
An Adat is controlled by MMC and Sysex messages (that's what the BRC is sending/receiving), details are listed in the BRC Service Manual.
Didn't find it online in a quick search, but this document may be useful:
http://www.pescadoo.net/annexe/max/Max&MMC.pdf

anon
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by anon » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:51 am

Yes I suposed so and can do sysex but... Problem is VDAT clk input has an audio connector, not a midi connector. If I try to connect a midi cable it changes icon to a stop signal. I can connect an audio cable.

Maybe its only a bad setting at VDAT SDK level but i dont know how to send midi over audio cable in Scope, haha
Have SDK but not the time to mess with it, im really enjoying the Modular and i have done my own MS-20 fully controllable from a Korg MS-20c - including the 36 jack patchbay...

Anyway: we need a trick to connect / send midi to clk input of VDAT.
anyone with SDK installed could try to open VDAT and try SDK rituals with it

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garyb
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by garyb » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:07 pm

you just need a midi to clock converter.
ASIO2 carries clock, so most sequencers can output clock.

here is a eurorack version:
https://www.perfectcircuit.com/erica-sy ... ck-v2.html

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astroman
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by astroman » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:51 pm

The whole VDAT environment (including controllers and sync) is C++ compiled and not related to SDK (imho).
I can't open the VRC atm (crashes), but that may have a midi input.
If it doesn't they might 'steal' the sysex and mmc items from midi in a background task - you may check with an external mmc command app by sending to Scope's midi port if VDAT reacts to start/stop.
The clock input is only needed for hardware connection - I never used it when operating VDAT by mouse actions.

anon
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by anon » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:26 am

AFAIK, clock messages has ticks for sync and start/stop/continue messages. They can be midi or audio and you can convert between the two.

Sysex messages are different midi messages and they can be mixed with midi clock messages in a midi connection. ADAT sysex includes record message and others which has nothing to do with clocks.

What you can't do is mix audio clock with sysex messages. Except VDAT?

Since i only need transport and not clock, i need to figure how to send midi over the VDAT input named "clki" (but not for clock purposes).

VCR has a midi input. It doesn't crash for me, only dead.
i'll see if Adern's clock2click has a midi input to act as midi thru but still i dont understand VDAT clki connector.

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astroman
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by astroman » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:54 am

Adat recorders have complex sync capabilities to practically any video format and were used in audio post-production.
My guess is that the sync is mainly intended to allow transfer of orginal tracks from physical Adats.
Tracks contained timecode position details and multiple machines were synced to exceed 8 tracks.
Or it's just a true virtual fake in the sense they implemened each and every capability - dunno, but it's quite stunning to operate VDAT with a physical BRC (and the BRC manual on the table) :D

VRC may react to mmc commands in it's disabled state (at least worth a try), but it may as well be just hanging around.

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astroman
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Re: VDAT MIDI CC control anybody? how?

Post by astroman » Fri May 17, 2019 10:49 am

probably not relevant anymore for the original question...
but couldn't resist to fiddle with VDAT and VRC 128 and a hardware Alesis BRC.

First of all I got rid of the crashing VRC by uninstalling any 'Visual C Distributable 2008' (there were many...)
Only then I installed the .exe from Scope 5 and VRC eventually stopped stalling...
For exactly 1 night, it's back on square one... leving me with no clues wtf is about :D

Anyway, when VRC had it's short bright moment it was quite interesting: it ignored the VDAT completely and the right label on VDAT kept telling 'master'.
It has to flip to 'slave' to be adressed by any remote control (software or external hardware).

This extends the problem to VDAT communication, so a non-responsive VRC might indicate that it doesn't get response from the virtual recorder.

The real world BRC was only partly working when it discovered a VDAT: it was possible to position according to some quickly created labels, but any play command resulted in dropping back into the header data section - no rolling.
When I armed tracks by the BRC, VDAT followed on screen, but in an interval of about 30 seconds the BRC displayed showed an 'error on id 1' message.

(I admit my attempts are pointless and motivated only by the 'but can it be done ?' question) :D

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