Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

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dehuszar
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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO sour

Post by dehuszar » Mon May 13, 2019 1:53 pm

asiofixer wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:20 pm
cool i will try...but is it right that you have only 4 tracks with PortAudio?
is PortAudio have better performance? than asio scope?
thnaks
I honestly can't remember. I don't recall that to be the case, but as I mentioned, I was able to get the Scope ASIO driver working, so I haven't played with Jack for minute.

As I type this, however, I recall that Jack has a network driver. I wonder if I could just pipe the signal to my Ubuntu laptop that way? 🤔
Last edited by dehuszar on Mon May 13, 2019 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dehuszar
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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by dehuszar » Mon May 13, 2019 2:05 pm

I also wonder if something like this could be used to shim the I/O ports in and out of a Wine-install of the scope software:

https://github.com/wineasio/wineasio/bl ... /README.md

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astroman
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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by astroman » Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm

Wine is just replacing Windoze system calls by a reverse engineered library - it doesn't cover any hardware related code.
So you never can 'install Scope software under Wine'.
Depending on the version of the Win runtime library that part of the software may run, but will get no response from the PCI card(s) and quit with an error very early.

(If used Wine successfully over many years to develope in a Win SDK but deploy for MacOSX target systems)

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dehuszar
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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by dehuszar » Mon May 13, 2019 4:46 pm

That's a shame. Do you happen to know what, without the proposed switch to JUCE that was contemplated for version 6, the hurdles are at this point for a Linux / Mac release?

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by garyb » Mon May 13, 2019 4:51 pm

JUCE doesn't work.

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dehuszar
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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by dehuszar » Mon May 13, 2019 5:39 pm

garyb wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:51 pm
JUCE doesn't work.
Right, but given what we do have that works, would it require a total re-write to support Mac & Linux, or just a critical subsystem like the hardware validation?

Just curious how "in the cards" it might be, on a scale from "never going to happen" to "someday but not today". I would gladly pay a few hundred dollars for a Linux installer in the same way that we might pay for a major version update even if there were no new features beyond the additional platform support.

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by garyb » Mon May 13, 2019 5:47 pm

not total, but major...

SC would love to do a Mac version. it just hasn't been possible up to now.

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valis
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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by valis » Mon May 13, 2019 6:09 pm

I use Mac/PC/linux, and am perfectly happy with Scope in the role it's in. I would no more try to convert you to Win/Mac for Bitwig than I would expect anyone to try to convert me off linux for my server hosting stack.

RME cards work well under linux btw (if you need an alternative to MOTU). Setup an ebay watch for the PCIe ADAT cards and save a few $, they support their drivers for decades.

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by dehuszar » Mon May 13, 2019 6:29 pm

Yup. I'm looking at a USB to ADAT streaming device or maybe trying to get Jack2 for Windows to pipe Scope's ASIO outs through Jack's network port (which I believe is what RME's networkable devices do under the hood).

Especially if I send the audio over my local network, using RDP to control the windows box would likely impact performance. I don't really want to get an extra monitor, keyboard, and mouse. To get 16 channels over ADAT would require multiplexing multiple streamers, which could bog down the USB bus, and so on.

No path is unsolvable, but each path requires a lot of experimentation and at least a few hundred dollars of new hardware. If I had my druthers, I would rather spend those few hundred dollars supporting more platforms for Scope.

Thanks for everyone's input and encouragement though. Just got inspired to poke around with Jack networking a bit

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by dehuszar » Mon May 13, 2019 7:47 pm

astroman wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm
Wine is just replacing Windoze system calls by a reverse engineered library - it doesn't cover any hardware related code.
So you never can 'install Scope software under Wine'.
Depending on the version of the Win runtime library that part of the software may run, but will get no response from the PCI card(s) and quit with an error very early.

(If used Wine successfully over many years to develope in a Win SDK but deploy for MacOSX target systems)
Steam has been doing great work getting the Linux proprietary drivers for AMD and Nvidia cards to work with Wine-optimized games. What's particularly different about that scenario vs the Scope drivers? ...aside from an exponentially larger budget and developer team, of course. ;)

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by valis » Mon May 13, 2019 9:00 pm

Some portion of the binary blob MAY be compatible since it's x86/x64, but the rest of the operating stack would require the drivers to be ported. And Scope isn't like RME or MOTU in that it's "just" a soundcard, the entire operating system side of things has to be written for linux, including the UI.

Sonic|Core isn't a large company, and Scope is basically Botique hardware at this point. We love it, but we don't expect the same level of development that you get from companies with considerably more resources. That DOESN'T mean that Sonic|Core wouldn't love to meet customer demand, simply that (from what I can tell) the company must focus resources where necessary for the core platform & userbase, and anything above and beyond we are always thankful for.

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by asiofixer » Tue May 14, 2019 1:48 am

Ouah!
a large subject! i use windows 7x-64 with a myself modified scope 5.0x86 to work on winx64
ASIO DEUS PRO LINK have LINKED my ASIO SCOPE and give a good latency (more precise than scope alone) no wonder why?
samplitude work very good with scope and i have a protools hd 10 installed in the same computer plug in audio and midi with scope and samplitude.
i have to put 1024 biffer in scope because i put 64 samples in protools (for the minimum plugins record latency in sampitude)
samplitude auto compensate the 1024 buffer of scope.
protools have a little latency so in put 64 samples delays in yamaha " INS " make 64 samples advance with drums after recording!
2 EXE / samplitude + protools hd
1 OS / WINDOWS 7X64 SP1
1 computer : LGA775 QUADCORE Q6600 8 GO SSD VERTREX
SCOPE CARD ARE OLD BUT WORK HARD !
thanks

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dehuszar
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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by dehuszar » Tue May 14, 2019 2:13 am

valis wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:00 pm
Sonic|Core isn't a large company, and Scope is basically Botique hardware at this point. We love it, but we don't expect the same level of development that you get from companies with considerably more resources. That DOESN'T mean that Sonic|Core wouldn't love to meet customer demand, simply that (from what I can tell) the company must focus resources where necessary for the core platform & userbase, and anything above and beyond we are always thankful for.
Totally, and I hope my sentiment isn't seen as grousing, because that's definitely not my intent. I've had my PC cards for 20 years and still love them every bit as much. I'm just about to embark on a not insignificant change to my studio to alter how I work, and wanted to get a sense of what the hurdles are around Linux support before I spend a bunch of money and take time away from making music to implement those alterations.

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by asiofixer » Tue May 14, 2019 2:46 am

PA_MIN_LATENCY_MSEC=50
hello do i have to put this environment variable in windows 7 x64 ?
apparently it fix asio clics and pops at low scope latency (64 buffer)
thanks

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by dehuszar » Wed May 15, 2019 7:57 pm

After a bit of hemming and hawing, I think I'm going to get the MOTU LP32. Should give allow me to sequence in Bitwig + Linux, but has a ton of ADATs I can connect to my Scope setup and OctoPre.

I've generally used my A16 Ultra through Z-Link and routed through via the Scope workspace, but I presume I can just use it with ADATs and wordclock on its own. Does anyone know if Z-Link and ADAT can be used simultaneously, or is it an either / or kinda thing?

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by astroman » Fri May 17, 2019 4:25 am

it's a different hardware port, so they operate independantly - never read a complaint here ... (iirc)

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by t_tangent » Fri May 17, 2019 4:51 am

Yes the Z-Link and ADAT I/O work independently,Mel they can both be used at the same time.

I have Z-Link from Scope Pro cards connected to 2 x A16U, then ADAT from one of those cards connected to XITE, all running from my Main DAW.

Works well.

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by dehuszar » Sat May 25, 2019 9:01 pm

Well, I have the basics set up. Bitwig on Linux piped through the Scope cards via ADAT are working really well. The MOTU's onboard mixers and effects (EQ/Compressor/Limiter/Gate/Reverb) are really nice. The Scope ones are great too and intend to still use them, but to have the MOTU take over some of the baseline needs of a channel strip and let the Scope do heavy lifting with synths & effects is a nice balance of resources.

I'm using Remmina to RDP into the Scope box. It's a little clunky, but not horrible. More than enough to get things wired up and then do the work locally in Bitwig.

I suspect the modular tools for Bitwig and Scope will be interesting to mix. Bitwig has a really cool modulator system and has a lot of nice modules for interacting with external hardware, and now it's actual modular synth and effects are in beta. Since Bitwig's sound is more on the clean/pristine side and the Scope system is more warm and colorful, I'm hoping they will complement each other a bit. I'll definitely report back on that as I have more time to play around.

Linux and Jack have a fantastic bevy of open-source synths, effects, and midi tools. They aren't always the best sounding, but some of them are quite nice. The guitar effects tools are surprisingly good. Jack also has a similarly fantastic routing system, and while I haven't attempted to use Jack's networking bus with a real workload, I was able to get a signal sent from the Linux machine over to my Windows machine using WinJack and via gigabit ethernet. I'm sticking with ADAT to start because it's reliable and I don't want to get too bogged down with experiments just yet, but being able to have an AVB system, pretty much for free is pretty baller.

I know resources are limited, but I would argue Linux + Jack are a better fit with the Scope platform than Windows or OSX are.

If Sonic-Core were ever to want to try their own hand at making another rack device, but instead of being just DSPs, it had an embedded i7 and operated as a complete hardware package, Linux and Jack would give them the flexibility to do so.

More to come.

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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by yayajohn » Sun May 26, 2019 2:30 pm

A really cool topic here.
I think I would migrate to Linux too if it were possible with Scope. I don't use a whole lot of VST's and I already use Reaper and Bitwig lite.
Right now my Win7 64bit Xeon has been running steady with XiteScope7
Nice thought on the Sonic Core hardware all-in-one package. I really don't see that happening but we can hope.
Please keep us updated on this.


Thanks
Dan

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ChristianB
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Re: Issues with Bitwig 2.x and questions about 2nd ASIO source

Post by ChristianB » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:25 am

Anybody as tried the version 3 of Bitwig with Scope 7 under windows 10?
Working or blue screen?

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