What do you as pro expect from your mic preamps?

[CreamWare4Ever]

Hello,

Mu intention is to come to some conclusion regarding the logic behind using the mic preamps. Behind the obivisly reason of using mic preams as signal boster for microphones and low cut - what more shall I expect from it? I'm using it for those 2 things right now.

My personal conviction is that is safest (best?) to record the vocals as clear as possible. So I'm not interested to allow my mic preamps to 'color' the sound. Maybe I'm then missing a big part from the possibilities that mic preamps can deliver actually!?

For now I'm using Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC200 which is in the lower price range. I'm using it in neutral mode for vocals and in my ears it is doing good job. Let me tell that I don't have any other mic preamp to compare with (...)

I will be glad if community people can give me inputs and suggestions about 'what' I shall (must?) listen and use mic preamps to. I don't have anything against to spend $400-500 on mic preamp - if there is a audible reason for that.

Please make my day.

Thanks!

[garyb]

the mic pre is almost the most important component, for a great sounding recording. eqs are a way to simulate different mics and pres and are the wrong way to do things(well, there's no wrong if it works).

regardless, to get a good a/d conversion, you MUST use a mic pre of some sort even if there's enough gain inside the box to record without one. the converter won't see enough level to get decent bit depth otherwise...

the presonus is pretty good sounding if you only want a/d, not d/a and you don't have enough pres...

[nightscope]

I'm using it in neutral mode for vocals and in my ears it is doing good job.

If you're happy with what you got you don't need anything else.

ns

[garyb]

if you ever heard a good mic pre though.......

[spacef]

what i expect from good mic +preamp is to minimize the need to post equalizing as i would hear the sound recorded and go " wow"
there is also the impression of dimension but i can't explain what it is with words , it is also a "wow factor"
if after recording you find yourself looking for 'the sound" for a long time with equalizers etc, then it is probably not a fantastic mic+preamp. I mean, even a bad singer sounds great, in term of frequency (not performance: ie, the singer is very bad but the sound is "wow" anyway)
something like that....

[Silenzio]

if it sounds right - it is right. So if you are happy with your micpre - don't waste your money. But - I'm shure you know - very important thing is to have best sounding chain you can allow to. I dont know what type of other studio equipment you use in your setup, but it has no sense to have really great mic pre and poor mic, not-so-good converter , cheapest monitors etc. You should also notice, that tube is only marketing "element" in cheap mic pres. It adds only mud to the signal. Nothing else (and sometimes increese power consumption).
I use different pres for different things: e.g. for el. guitars and 'screaming " vocals - UA 2108, for violin, ac. guitar - millenia media etc. ... Every good device has its own sound signature (and most of cheap devices trying to "copy" it), so using different preamps and mics is a bit like using palette of colours when you painting.
IMHO one of the best price-to quality balanced gear is presonus eureka: preamp is really GOOD, DI - is like dynamite, comp - not so great but ok, AND very, very nice EQ. Moreover it has sidechaining filter for comp (e.g for deessing) and nice saturate knob . So you can make very differnt flavours of sound using eureka. It also has balanced output - Behringer - as I remanber not.
Regards

[astroman]

I'm using it in neutral mode for vocals and in my ears it is doing good job.

If you're happy with what you got you don't need anything else.

well, that's only 1 side of the coin...
if you don't know anything else, you don't know what you're missing

the Behringer does 'squeeze' the signal considerably, even if you have the impression of a similiar frequency spectrum.

ok, admittedly I'm leaning somewhat far out of the window with that verdict because I (shamelessly) deducted it from a different application, but hell...
a preamp without eq is a preamp, isn't it ?

When I had this problem with electric bass (clean sound), I found the Basstasters site with a lot of examples (many of the boxes are mic/instrument switchable anyway)
here's your Behringer: http://www.basstasters.com/preamps/Behr ... IC200.html
and here's an UAD Solo: http://www.basstasters.com/preamps/UA_SOLO_610.html

they have most of the examples with the Sadowsky vintage 5 (Jazz 5 PU)
pick from the list whatever you want to compare, just pay attention that nickel strings sound a bit different from steel in case they use different strings for the examples.

It is a very interesting site and shows how much nuances there really are about preamps
I wouldn't suggest it as a shootout location for vocal pres, but it can be quite instructive and help adjust your ears.

cheers, Tom

[Liquid Len]

I used Behringer Preamp & AD converters for years and figured they sounded 'great'. Then I tried using the one on a TC helicon quintet (rackmount harmonizer - of course i had the harmony effects bypassed, just using it as a converter). Suddenly I realized how much mud and distortion the Behringer was adding. It's the equivalent of going from a cheap mike to a good quality one, the sound is just more real sounding and less 'flat'. If you want the vocals 'clear' as possible, get the best AD converter you can afford. Once your sound is spoiled by a poor quality capture, you won't ever get the quality back.

[nightscope]

if you ever heard a good mic pre though.......

Ok, gazza & Tom, point taken.

ns

[CreamWare4Ever]

I'm using it in neutral mode for vocals and in my ears it is doing good job.

If you're happy with what you got you don't need anything else.

well, that's only 1 side of the coin...
if you don't know anything else, you don't know what you're missing

the Behringer does 'squeeze' the signal considerably, even if you have the impression of a similiar frequency spectrum.

ok, admittedly I'm leaning somewhat far out of the window with that verdict because I (shamelessly) deducted it from a different application, but hell...
a preamp without eq is a preamp, isn't it ?

When I had this problem with electric bass (clean sound), I found the Basstasters site with a lot of examples (many of the boxes are mic/instrument switchable anyway)
here's your Behringer: http://www.basstasters.com/preamps/Behr ... IC200.html
and here's an UAD Solo: http://www.basstasters.com/preamps/UA_SOLO_610.html

they have most of the examples with the Sadowsky vintage 5 (Jazz 5 PU)
pick from the list whatever you want to compare, just pay attention that nickel strings sound a bit different from steel in case they use different strings for the examples.

It is a very interesting site and shows how much nuances there really are about preamps
I wouldn't suggest it as a shootout location for vocal pres, but it can be quite instructive and help adjust your ears.

cheers, Tom

Thank you for this valuable source. I must admit that there is some audible difference. How much I understood from this examples, UAD is tending to give more 'color' to the source. That is something that I use to do with EQ. However, I don't know which setting they used when they recorded so I guess it is a good reference.

That is actually my intention with this topic - to ask people WHY they are using mic preamps, rather then HOW. Because on HOW it is easy to get answers, but that is not the point...

[CreamWare4Ever]

If you want the vocals 'clear' as possible, get the best AD converter you can afford. Once your sound is spoiled by a poor quality capture, you won't ever get the quality back.

Yes I agree with this at 100%. Because I have noticed that it is very easy to add color and saturation in digital way with Waves stuff for example. Not to talking about that different DYN plugins ads some coloration in the chain. Until now I have used Luna Cards on board I/O and I'm quite happy with it. But now I'm looking for Luna 2496 (8ch) or A16.

I have noticed that it is hard to work if I don't believe in 100% that is it right way I'm doing it....

[Neutron]

low noise and distortion
very high power supply rejection and a very solid power supply (no generic wall wart)
designed power regulators, a generic voltage regulator chip by its self does not cut it when you are amplifying a low signal like a mic.
accurate reproduction of the sound of the recorded subject, and the microphone if it has a "sound"
no "sound" of its own. tube, and other gimmicks no thanks.
phantom power. it must be clean.
variable or switchable input impedance.
dont put electrolytic, tantalum or any other polarised capacitors in the signal path. none at all.
used single channel (preferrably metal canned) op amps. even national engineers have found metal can op amps sound better, but they haven't figured out why! fortunately they know that and stiull make them.
for mic, phono or low level inputs, that is especially important, once you get up to line level you can use decent but cheaper opamps.

fortunately they make the LME49713 in metal cans but they are $12 if you cant get samples (hint, dont have a gmail or msn or yahoo or other common isp email if you want free samples)
that IC makes you want to spout a lot of hi fi BS about sound. it just sounds great.

very easily done with new national semiconductor, analog devices and other brand op amps which have vanishing low distortion figures.
designing and implementing a good one is often screwed up by some pencil pusher trying to save 2 cents. bigger the company, the worse it is. look how the kind of awesome EMU0404 with a great AD/DA converters was crippled with crappy electrolytic capacitors and mediocre opamps in the signal path.

if you pay $2000 for a mic preamp i only have one thing to say

haha

[astroman]

well, I'd ignore the caps type alltogether and suggest

anything labeled Telefunken, Siemens, TAB without Opamp ICs is a good choice

checkit at oneastroman - and if only for the pics sake
site is NOT run by me

cheers, Tom

[CreamWare4Ever]

Thank you for your inputs people.

One thing that hits me when I saw post by astroman. Is it possible to find any spec or reviews of 12AX7 vacuum tube? I'm using that in Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC200 so I want to compare.

Thanks.

[nightscope]

http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12AX7

[CreamWare4Ever]

http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12AX7

Very interesting reading! Thanks for that. One question: Do you know which one is in Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC200 unit? In their manual it said 'Hand-selected 12AX7 vacuum tube with UTC technology'. Any idea?

[astroman]

well, how would you apply the tube to it's socket if not by hand-selecting it from the box ?

my guess is that anyone selling such a thing for less than 200 bucks just plugs in what comes along
you probably noticed that even the ultra cheapo Behringer, Presonus, ART are not THAT bad in comparison to the premium stuff. The difference is undeniable (and important on the main voice), but for a Telecaster banging background rythms... (?)

tubes have a fairly wide scale of deviation (by nature), so you can't rely on specs anyway
I'm not a tube geek (yet) fortunately, but not so few owners of guitar amps spend a significant amount of time optimizing those bulbs...

cheers, Tom

[garyb]

it doesn't matter that much which 12ax7 is in there. the tube in such a cheap device doesn't do all that much. tubes don't automatically make a better pre anyway. i prefer my solid state millenia over my demeter, but not for everything...

hand selected
what tube isn't?

[astroman]

here's the truth about bad, worn tubes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqvvu9ZZfmY
sorry in German, but you probably guess it anyway
(was posted in off topic recently, Telefunken commercial)

cheers, Tom

ps: you can do one yourself...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_eLO0exato

[nightscope]

The only way to find out if a tube is OK is to get one, stick it in and see. I got a Soundelux mic and I was looking for some spare tubes in case of disaster. Bear in mind Soundelux as a company are now down the tubes themselves and are no longer trading so there's zippo support. David Bock, who designed the mic, advised me that in his experience about half of this particular type were good enough. The original tube is still going strong but I will get a bunch to avoid disappointment.