My first thoughts about my MINIMAX

Discuss the Creamware ASB and Klangbox hardware boxes

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astroman
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Post by astroman »

no, my point is not about 'deserving' support related to a specific sales price.

But I do remember quite some posts that people were rushing after sell-out boxes when they were below 500 here in Europe, possibly the Mini was 298 or 368 or something like that. Mostly it read like '...if I could get one for that price, but they are soldout -anyone knows a shop who still has...'
Bargain hunting - don't buy when it's released, wait until the sell-out... remember NOAH... etc.

An original Minimoog had a salesprice of 3700 DM back then in pre-Euro days.
While the currency was exchanged 2 for 1, the 'real' value in everyday life was 1 to 1, so a Mini would represent an investment of almost 4k Euro, as would the Odyssey I couldn't afford as a schoolboy.
Now open that box and look inside, the parts are barely 50 Euro, plus keyboard, case, frontpanel and powersupply.
The Moog company had a product with healthy margin, respected by it's customers - and it allowed support and ongoing R&D.

if you're willing to invest according to that scale, then you may get the kind of support you obviously expect. Otherwise it's ecomomic overkill for the company.
If a process doesn't sell more machines, you normally cannot afford it - there are debts and salaries due.

You may ask whoever met someone from SonicCore at one of the Fairs - these folks are trying to give the best support and product developement possible.
Limitation are by budget and not by intention - and no, they don't just play Mr. Nice Guy at the show ;)

I don't intend to defend SonicCore's business practice - I can only explain a few items because I'm in a similiar business myself and I've worked in support, too.
Since we made an average (sales) profit in the 25% range with key accounts, and up to 40% with 'consumers' in the shop, we could afford to take time for our customer's questions.
Afterall it was a benefit for both sides, as most of what we supplied 'on the fly' is sold as 'consulting' separately today.

Anway, times have changed and people voted - as usual with their wallets...
in the end you always get what you paid for.

cheers, Tom
kjellg
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Post by kjellg »

astroman wrote:how much did you pay for that modular - if you don't mind to publish ?



cheers, Tom


kjellg, I really liked your playing, in particular that you change (a lot of) sounds by hand via dialing, instead of just recalling a preset :)
In Norway where I live all the prices are high,the norwegian crone(krone) is quite strong in the marked. Our sallery is also at a high level compare to other countrys, so is the living expences here. I payed 1.500 us(8000 norwegian crones) wich is a good price in Norway, but I guess a absurde price elsewhere.
Thanks Tom for your nice comment! I think I got a version without the stepping problem so the tweaking is like it supose to be.

Kjell
meyersaxel
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Post by meyersaxel »

Hi astroman,

that's the point. CREAMWARE went out of business and I don't think that the first problem they had to solve than was the customer's support. I did not want to accuse or help to accuse anyone from the SONIC-CORE Fair-team. I only wrote about what one of the guys told me according to the 6-voice-thing.

The other point is that the support that I got was always good. I am quite happy about having these two boxes. To be honest - I am one of the guys who paid dicount prices for both - the MINIMAX and the PRO-12. And just as you wrote - I do not want to complain about anything that eventually may not work. This depends on the low price and on the fact that I can use the boxes as I want to. I don't think that I'm limited by any function which maybe does not work as promissed - even the 6-voice-thing does not annoy me...

As a live-keyboard-player I do not need everything that can be done with an ASB-Box, The only thing I always expect buying new instruments is that the machines sound better than the setup did before.

I always recommend the ASBs because I am totally happy with the ASBs as they are.

regards
Axel
pricklyrobot
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Post by pricklyrobot »

Certainly if you buy a discounted product from a company that's going out of business you're taking a gamble and you have to live with it. I wouldn't be bitching about the lack of support from Creamware if they'd simply gone out of business, that would be pointless.

The problem here is that Creamware resurrected itself as Sonic-core and is now selling the exact same (flawed) product and promoting it with the exact same (inaccurate and misleading) specs. And selling it at full price now, mind you. If they're going to make another attempt at making a profit from this product, I think they have to likewise make another (better) attempt at providing support for it.

People here realize Sonic-core, and Creamware before them, are not huge corporations with limitless budgets. People here, myself included, have offered to pay for ASB fixes. By and large these requests have been met with complete silence from Sonic-core. At the very least an acknowledgment from Sonic-core that they're aware of the bugs, perhaps a tentative schedule of when they might get fixed, and maybe a price scale for fixes that go beyond what they'd be able to offer for free, providing all or even any of this information would go a long way toward boosting customer confidence (and making currently disgruntled ASB owners more open to the idea of purchasing additional Sonic-core products in future).

For instance, I own a Minimax, I'd like to have a Prodyssey as well. But I'm not going to spend $1000 on one, knowing that it has significant bugs that may never get fixed. However, if Sonic-core would even come out with a time-line for potential fixes, I'd be much more likely to take a chance and spend the money.

I'm willing to take a chance and invest in a small company's product, provided that company is able to inspire confidence and demonstrate that they intend to stand behind that product to the best of their resources and abilities. As perpetually close-mouthed as they are, I certainly have not gotten that sense from Sonic-core.
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Septic
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Post by Septic »

I paid 750 for the minimax, 900 for the Pro12 and 1100 for the Prodyssey in Holland and Germany for the units, I bought em just when they got released, I got the proddy even on the day of release :P.

I thought that the bugs would be fixed, I was wrong. I already sold the Proddy, the Pro12 and Minimax do 300-400 2nd handed here in Holland, so i wont sell those 2 because I would lose too much money in it. But when my Solaris arives, I will think again about keeping them or letting them go....

Lets hope SonicCore will fix this bugs, a friend of mine got the plugiator and those have the bugs fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For a lousy 366 p/unit with 4 synths in it....

i even thought about buying a plugiator as a sound-source for my asb's.
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

pricklyrobot wrote:...The problem here is that Creamware resurrected itself as Sonic-core ...
sorry to interrupt here, but that is just plain wrong.
I actually dunno if the founders of SonicCore used this brand name already in their former company which was about customer specific audio solutions, consulting and programming services.

The only relation to Creamware is that they both were members of the Scope development team, which was sacked after Creamware's first bancrupty.
They've never been members of the board.

Their decision to aquire the rights on ex-Creamsware's intellectual property (after the 2nd bancrupty a few years later) was influenced to a large degree by a couple of coincidences that made it look promising to keep the Scope technology alive.

Since then they've performed respectably - got developers back, a vast increase of commercial 3rd party interest, adapted Scope to new DSPs, are about to release a high performance mobile+studio solutions with interfaces users have requested and obviously a true software update is on it's way.

with all respect, but fixing bugs in 90% or higher functional ASB boxes would rather make them filing for the next chapter, than keep the company going.
I didn't write those lines further up about decreased revenues for any such company by chance.
The current economic situation is 'aquired' by customer request for cheaper and cheaper goods and simply doesn't allow what some of us understand as proper service anymore.
You'd never get your firmware fixes if they'd focus on debugging - as the company would be out of business within less than half a year.

The argument '...but I would pay for...' is not uncommon here - unfortunately most people (may not apply to you) have not even a faint idea about what developement actually costs.

Your opinion is your own cup of tea - but it's fully respected, even if you may stay away from another product if the company doesn't gain your confidence.
It's no problem to disagree about a certain situation, but there are certainly easier ways to make money in technology than the one SonicCore has choosen. ;)

cheers, Tom
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Post by pricklyrobot »

astroman wrote:You'd never get your firmware fixes if they'd focus on debugging - as the company would be out of business within less than half a year.
So how are you suggesting we will get them? By chalking up our ASB's as a loss, and buying whatever new, fully-functional product that Sonic-core has on offer?
with all respect, but fixing bugs in 90% or higher functional ASB boxes would rather make them filing for the next chapter, than keep the company going.
if Sonic-core can make money by selling partially functional products via misleading advertising, and providing little or no support for those products, then good for them (personally I have my doubts about the long-term viability of such a business plan, but maybe they can stay in business by constantly burning bridges to the older gear and just moving on to the next cheap thing). But don't expect me to be happy with Sonic-core, or sympathize with their financial woes (it's a for-profit business, not a freakin' charity!)

Yes, it's difficult to run a business, put out a decent product and then continue to stand behind that product. It's even harder to do this and keep turning a profit. But if you can't hack it, you don't deserve success or a good reputation.
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

pricklyrobot wrote: if Sonic-core can make money by selling partially functional products via misleading advertising, and providing little or no support for those products, then good for them (personally I have my doubts about the long-term viability of such a business plan, but maybe they can stay in business by constantly burning bridges to the older gear and just moving on to the next cheap thing).
fill-in the supplier of your current operating system instead of SonicCore and you'll see that it works pretty well for decades.
But don't expect me to be happy with Sonic-core, or sympathize with their financial woes (it's a for-profit business, not a freakin' charity!)
no need to - as there was no need for SonicCore to ever support any ex-Creamware product.
it's nice that you seem to understand that business is about profit, so why start bitching about 'deserved success' ?
How many ASBs have been sold ? How many users are happy with the box ?
I don't have one myself and I didn't count the complaints here, but let me guess... less than 10 ?
You may complain about a wrongly advertized polyphony - imho anyone playing a Mini polyphonic is gaga anyway. So... let's call it a draw... :P :D

I don't see why there shouldn't be fixes on the ASBs, but
you cannot finish the probably most sophisticated hardware synth on this planet,
roll out a new external interface with 10times the calculation power of the current hardware
and update the Scope OS
and fix a handful of bugs that won't sell you one more unit
all at once

cheers, Tom
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Post by pricklyrobot »

astroman wrote:no need to - as there was no need for SonicCore to ever support any ex-Creamware product.
Really, the company that's selling that exact same Creamware product with a new sticker slapped on it has no obligation to support it?
You may complain about a wrongly advertized polyphony - imho anyone playing a Mini polyphonic is gaga anyway. So... let's call it a draw... :P :D
Yes, we're all a bunch of very stupid people here. Thanks for setting us straight.
you cannot finish the probably most sophisticated hardware synth on this planet
Are you referring to the Solaris? If so, isn't that a John Bowen project that's simply being co-released (not designed) by Sonic-core? Scroll to the bottom of page of 1 here: http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 13&start=0 if you need clarification on this point.
fix a handful of bugs that won't sell you one more unit
I specifically said I'd buy a Prodyssey if I was reasonably confident that the bugs were going to be fixed. So there's your one more unit right there.

What business are you in Tom, professional condescension? Anyhow, thanks for dropping in to act as cheerleader for a product which you've never owned, super helpful that!
Last edited by pricklyrobot on Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by pricklyrobot »

stardust wrote:Any bugs can be fixed when the big projects are finished: Solaris, scope 5 Xite. No way around this.
I hope this is the case. I just wish Sonic-core would come out and say so themselves.
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

pricklyrobot wrote:...Are you referring to the Solaris? If so, isn't that a John Bowen project that's simply being co-released (not designed) by Sonic-core? Scroll to the bottom of page of 1 here: http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 13&start=0 if you need clarification on this point...
yes it is a John Bowen product, but guess who's doing (part of) the coding and hardware programmming .... ;)
...What business are you in Tom, professional condescension? Anyhow, thanks for dropping in to act as cheerleader for a product which you've never owned, super helpful that!
you didn't really make the impression that you were looking for help... but never mind.

At least I own the software counterparts of the Mini and Pro12 - and guess what ? I frequently feed them stuff from a Yamaha sequencer.

Yes, there are days when I get stuck notes - and there are days without.
I can't really trace it, it just happens. But I also can patch this sequencer to death, so the first keypress will hang it until a power on reset.
My Yamaha DX200 may not be totally reliable either - should I ask for customer support ? Well, the unit was taken off the market within less than a year after it's release, if I remember correctly, oops.

cheers, Tom
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Post by pricklyrobot »

astroman wrote: My Yamaha DX200 may not be totally reliable either - should I ask for customer support ?
Well if Yamaha, or some other company that acquires the rights, starts producing DX200's again, then yes I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to ask for some support.

Frankly, I don't understand what point you're ultimately trying to make in this thread. People who bought ASB's from Creamware have no right to expect support for their ASB's because ASB's are produced by Sonic-core now? ASB owners have no right to expect any support, period, because you personally have deemed the ASB bugs to be insignificant? The entire concept of standing behind a product that you sell is obsolete?

But my biggest problem is that while all the other participants in this thread (and other threads related to ASB problems) manage to be polite, even when we may disagree with one another, you have been consistently rude and dismissive, and I can't understand why.

I don't have any kind of personal grudge against Sonic-core (nor Creamware before them), I'm just frustrated that the ASB's, which have the potential to be really awesome instruments, are stuck just being 'pretty good' because of a few lingering bugs.
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

pricklyrobot wrote:...Frankly, I don't understand what point you're ultimately trying to make in this thread. People who bought ASB's from Creamware have no right to expect support for their ASB's because ASB's are produced by Sonic-core now? ...
But my biggest problem is that while all the other participants in this thread (and other threads related to ASB problems) manage to be polite, even when we may disagree with one another, you have been consistently rude and dismissive, and I can't understand why.
well, it's just that... written words - possibly you read a motivation that's not even remotely intended ?

I used a couple of ironic formulations as your '... welcome to the wonderful world of non-support... etc ' response to someone else's 'first impressions' made me think you like that style.
naming polyphonic Mini players gaga was followed by a Monty Python quote (marking it as non-serious), but even on it's own, I wouldn't call that rude.

of course I'm stating the obvious in this thread, as Stardust is doing and as you also know by yourself:

a company can only do (long term) support, if there are (continuing) revenues
SonicCore is a heavily engaged in projects to achieve exactly that: everyone knows that without a new productline and without OS revisions Scope would slowly pass away.

You wrote yourself that business is not charity - so it might be my turn to ask which point are you trying to make ... ;)

there's no problem with whatever opinion you may have, but calling SonicCore a resurrected (for strategic reasons) Creamware is simply wrong
I explained why.
you know about the fix of Slammah's B4000 ASB, but still put the company in a light of just cashing in for profit's sake while ignoring users.

again this is not a matter of taste (like calling their email response lame etc), so it's commented.

you pretend to look for something 'to put confidence in a small company'
well, if what they achieved during last year doesn't match your expectations, then go looking elsewhere
(attn irony)
but better watch out on Yamaha ;)
you completely misunderstood my remark about the DX200 thingy - Yamaha itself simply ceased it and that's about it. 'Sorry Sir, we don't support that anymore...'
the largest manufacturer of musical instruments in the world ...
do they care about me ? no software updates, no firmware updates, I get eyestress in front of the editor, the box crashes, seems to has timing flaws, etc, etc - yes it has great potential, with this or that modification.

and as you know Yamaha could easily afford the budget required
but they don't care about the product at all - it's the economic side they are interested in. Period.
Any complaints about Yamaha ? :D

cheers, Tom
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Post by pricklyrobot »

astroman wrote: you know about the fix of Slammah's B4000 ASB, but still put the company in a light of just cashing in for profit's sake while ignoring users.
Great they actually helped one guy, and we only know about it because he told us about it himself on a unofficial internet forum.

Meanwhile I've e-mailed Sonic-core's support no fewer than 10-15 times over the course of the year, only to finally receive a response asking me if I've installed OS 2.0 (when I've clearly and explicitly stated in every e-mail I sent that I upgraded the OS as soon as I bought my Minimax, and that it doesn't correct the stuck-note problems). Call me unreasonable if you like, but I think responding to e-mail in manner that suggests that you haven't even read it, is lame. A response along the lines of 'hey, we're really busy with some big projects that we're hoping will sell really well and give the company the resources we need to tackle those ASB bugs at some point in the future.' would've gone a long way towards giving me some confidence in Sonic-core and it wouldn't have cost them any money or resources just to say it.
you pretend to look for something 'to put confidence in a small company'
well, if what they achieved during last year doesn't match your expectations, then go looking elsewhere
If they are almost completely unresponsive (to the point of almost never even responding to e-mails) concerning issues with current products, why should I assume that their support will suddenly improve when their new products come to market? It could be that, as you say, they're too bogged down with new product development to provide support for anything; or it could be that they just don't really care about customer service. And Sonic-core themselves aren't talking, so I really have no way to judge.
you completely misunderstood my remark about the DX200 thingy - Yamaha itself simply ceased it and that's about it. 'Sorry Sir, we don't support that anymore...'
Hey, if Sonic-core came out and said 'sorry, we're not supporting ASB's any more', I'd stop complaining about their lack of support (I'd be disappointed, but at least I'd know for sure that there was no hope for ASB fixes), but they haven't even done that. And they're still cranking out new ASB's, aren't they?
and as you know Yamaha could easily afford the budget required
but they don't care about the product at all - it's the economic side they are interested in. Period.
Ah, so, on one hand your point is: that Sonic-core are a small company hard at work on big, expensive projects, so we should cut them some slack for their unresponsiveness; and on the other hand: that all of us ASB complainers are naïve for hoping that Sonic-core would be better-behaved than a big corporation like Yamaha? Well, I'm guilty as charged on count two, I guess. It looks like a win-win for Sonic-core, based on your logic; go team! :wink:
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Post by johnbowen »

astroman wrote:
pricklyrobot wrote:...Are you referring to the Solaris? If so, isn't that a John Bowen project that's simply being co-released (not designed) by Sonic-core?
yes it is a John Bowen product, but guess who's doing (part of) the coding and hardware programmming .... ;)
They're not just doing part of the coding...they're doing all of the coding! they are also responsible for designing the circuit boards inside, selecting the hardware components, etc. The front panel (User Interface) design, circuitry/function and layout is mine.
Sonic Core is building the Solaris for my company. It is what is referred to as a OEM relationship, similar to what Roger Linn and Dave Smith do with a facility in Rhonert Park, California.

cheers,
John B.
pricklyrobot
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Post by pricklyrobot »

johnbowen wrote:
astroman wrote:
pricklyrobot wrote:...Are you referring to the Solaris? If so, isn't that a John Bowen project that's simply being co-released (not designed) by Sonic-core?
yes it is a John Bowen product, but guess who's doing (part of) the coding and hardware programmming .... ;)
They're not just doing part of the coding...they're doing all of the coding! they are also responsible for designing the circuit boards inside, selecting the hardware components, etc. The front panel (User Interface) design, circuitry/function and layout is mine.
Sonic Core is building the Solaris for my company. It is what is referred to as a OEM relationship, similar to what Roger Linn and Dave Smith do with a facility in Rhonert Park, California.

cheers,
John B.
Thanks for the clarification. Hope all goes well, everyone involved makes lots of money, and Sonic-core can afford to fix our ASB's when it's all done. Or maybe I should sell mine and just start saving for a Solaris. :)
irrelevance

Post by irrelevance »

johnbowen wrote:
astroman wrote:
pricklyrobot wrote:...Are you referring to the Solaris? If so, isn't that a John Bowen project that's simply being co-released (not designed) by Sonic-core?
yes it is a John Bowen product, but guess who's doing (part of) the coding and hardware programmming .... ;)
They're not just doing part of the coding...they're doing all of the coding! they are also responsible for designing the circuit boards inside, selecting the hardware components, etc. The front panel (User Interface) design, circuitry/function and layout is mine.
Sonic Core is building the Solaris for my company. It is what is referred to as a OEM relationship, similar to what Roger Linn and Dave Smith do with a facility in Rhonert Park, California.

cheers,

John B.

And long may this great relationship continue John 8)
Le Bone
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Post by Le Bone »

Septic wrote: Lets hope SonicCore will fix this bugs, a friend of mine got the plugiator and those have the bugs fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For a lousy 366 p/unit with 4 synths in it....

i even thought about buying a plugiator as a sound-source for my asb's.
So does the Plugiator have the sync/ring mod fixes for the Prodyssey? I can get around potential voicing isues with my PRO12 and Prodyssey by multitracking, but cannot get around the fact that aspects of the Prodyssey sound is wrong and does not sound right when compared to a real Odyssey (can you do a Ultravox sound with alisaing ring mod/sync?).

Have those sound bugs been solved in Solaris and Plugiator?
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kylie
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Post by kylie »

Le Bone wrote:Have those sound bugs been solved in Solaris and Plugiator?
well, re-reading

http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15631

and

http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21072

might give an idea who was heavily involved in the development of the ASB boxes (note the nick change from CW Frank to inDSP Frank :) ).
as we know the relationship between SC and Frank Hund's business isn't that friendly. maybe the explanation why SC haven't fixed the bugs yet, and the plugiator might have (if that is true) lies somewhere here?!

I agree, of course, that continuous selling of those units known to have that bugs and not fixing them for whatever reason isn't exactly a good idea...

-greetings, markus-
--
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
irrelevance

Post by irrelevance »

Maybe SC should consider posting current issues on the website somewhere. Would save everyone involved a lot of time if it up there in black and white. Then at least potential customers can be left to make an informed decision.
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