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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:05 pm 
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i am not sure what is a vca swell since i am still a little green on this :) common sense tells me it is a volume swell but better you explain it if possible. by pitch up swell do you mean pitch as in frequency changing?

i have fm oscillators connected directly to MVC C, no sync between them. if you meant that by audio from the other osc as frequency modulation?

i was trying to implement swell modulations with key velocity using multisegment env so that harder note velocities i could get more swelling but it did not work well. but then i decided to do it via midi controller values since swell control is a very good thing when composing. it went nicely but then when I wanted to chain hi res filter frequences to the same controller i noticed that modular / scope cannot assign same controller to more than one device. so it would require a unique controller number to each device which is bad.

are there any filter plugins whose frequency could be adjusted via control / modulation input? i found none. only way would be to use midi controller but that would require N different controller values which is not practical anymore.

edit: found a control with CFm1 input! thought i tested this already...


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:59 am 
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all filter modulaes have filter control inputs cfm1 cfm2 and some have res modulation inputs

bc modular does not but has frequency control inputs you just need to add your own via modular modules

the reason for this it saves on dsp for a module and leaves it up to you create your modulation sources how you like

now in scope modular you can connect any thing to any thing as there are conversion modules if you want to use audio rate controllers you can by using a sync to async module

a volume swell is just that you can do them with aftertouch or by envelopes

the best envelopes are the types you can set at any position so that you can start the attack rate at say 40% volume rather than 0 volume so that when you play you get instant sound

then the attack starts at 40-100% this is were you create your swell you set the attack to a semi fast attack with a -expo curve then the sound will start at 40% volume then swell upto 100% volume in a arc

brass players do this by there breath pressure by exerting more pressure they can get it to swell sax trumpet and most wind instruments players use this technique and tonging which is the same but in small bursts which gives a vibrato effect

thats why i look at sample editors at samples using frequency analysis and envelopes as you can see how they evolve over time we use the shape of the sample as our envelope curve for vca and filter we can also use the envelope curve and frequency analysis to create a formant filter

on the kawai k5000 it has a 128 band formant filter by using the frequency analysis we can see what frequency bands are present there volume levels same way as additive synthesis makes wavetables from a section of a sample it turns it into a series of sin ans cosin phase waves known as partials at different speeds and volume amounts

a formant filter uses bandpass filters the same way with a digital bandpass formant filter like the kawai k5000 having 128 you can create very convincing curves

now the fft analysis will give the partials of the sound you take them and plot them on the formant filter you then look at the envelope shape and draw the same envelope curve as the sample

for fm osc to work correctly you need a carrier and a modulator other wise fm osc are just sin osc and you only can do additive with them a dx7 is an 6 osc additive synth if not doing fm thats 3 less than a b3 organ drawbars

so to get overtones you need to frequency modulate the fm osc this adds extra harmonics to the output and by using envelopes to control volume you get a transient OUTPUT OF THOSE OVERTONE FREQUENCIES.

now if you also use feedback then the transient output is then feed back into the carrier input or modulator input adding more overtones to the point of digital noise

so you need 2 fm osc to create fm tones minimum now most patches are created with what we call stacks that is fm pairs outputs added additive together to create the final sound

they do this by using a pair for the percussive attack portion fast attack blip loud volume that disappears after 1 or 2 seconds the they use a second pair as the next sustained level then the third pair as a chorus to the second doing sustain and release portion

so that they can get the evolving tone and why fm is very good at creating e-piano and bell type sounds

now additive synthesis with many osc like the k5000 goes one step further as we can start with the sound source with out using fm

by analyzing a sound and taking snippets over time as the harmoics change you can create a additive wave of that harmonic

by starting the osc playback at different intervals in time with different envelopes and lfo you can create a picture of the sound

now there are additive synths that use many additive osc to actually create the whole sound

the reason why additive is better than sampling in the early days was that it did not spead up or slow down the harmonic conent so that if a envelope was set to 4 seconds the low notes would play for seconds and the high notes would play 4 seconds

now wavetable synthesis is additive but a creation of spectra over time from a sample this allowed large samples to be re synthesized into a table of additive single cycle waves over time that could be scanned through it was devised by palm for his wave synth as memory was very expensive and only one sample playback romplers and samplers at the time fairlight 8bit 1 sample playback and the EII 400k sample memory did not accurately produce the sound so he devised a system of creating additive spectra and a lookup table that could move through each additive wave but the down side to this was memory again and so the tables were very small and were a very loose approximation and also suffered from bad buffers that the change from cycle to cycle would produce clicks and it also suffered from the clicks and noise sounds as the additive could not create it

they brought out the waveterm which was a sampler waveterma was 8bits wavetermb was 16bits it could create user wavetables for the wave extra memory for them in 12bits or the wave could trigger the wavetermb as a transient sample playback giving the added transient noise but that also suffered the 1 sample playback flaw

in the 90/2000 memory was small so that mostly multisampling was only to a few sets of keys so that a 4second sample if played at 2 osctaves lower would be a 16 or more second sample and if played at 1 or 2 octaves higher would be a 2 or less seconds

so yamaha created with the help of ircam acoustic modeling this was the vl-1 which was great not having to use synthesis from the analog types envelopes they could actually use the techniques of real players but these instruments were the same as learning real instruments and you needed to practice like using the same types of instruments so this never took of as only real players used them and preferred the real thing

this does not sound real

and additive and fm was used to get over this sample dis advantage but fm and additive suffered from not being able to do noise or clicks and pops

so a mixture of fm and sample + synthesis was used yamaha brought out the sy77 and sy99 the kawai brought out the k5000 additive and sample + synthesis

by using both techniques you could create more realistic creations and some unheard of type synths

with the onset of kontakt and giga sampler with there disk streaming sampling took on a new step because of being able to sample every key at many velocities and the noises they could create very accurate emulations but at multi gb sizes and the 4gb system ram of 32bit machines was starting to be not enough

so the down side to sampling is you need a massive amount of ram now a mixture of additive sampling fm and va

in modular you have all these eliments and if you have the 32bit os then you have multisample support with bc modular sts osc

so first you need to look at the sample your trying to create see how it changes over time and how your going to create that with envelopes then look at the frequencies and what sound source your going to use to achieve them

then what filters your going to use to remove frequencies from your source material to get the sound your after

what modulation sources you need to get the same performance of the sound

i find it easy to do a memory map or a block diagram first so you get a visual idea of what your doing

then when you have that you can start to create the modular with the modules you need

its also how i do my emulations i use schematics and synth design flow charts to see how things are connected

but with modular you have complete control of every thing so you can do extras not available on the original synths like multifilters modulation matrix's


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:41 am 
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I watched the Man of Steel movie the other day in Cinema and really liked the soundtrack. Then found out it was by Hans Zimmer who is now making sample sets with Spitfire :-

http://youtu.be/4tLZ2Cuk1qs

Would love to have these types of sounds coming from a Scope device, as I am doing something similar with Juggernaut and Kontakt but this has workflow overheads.

Does the new BC Modular sample osc play samples from the DSP ram ?


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:00 am 
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no it uses host ram as the sts uses the akai.dll dsp module

which uses most host resources but has async and sync i/o

its the same type device you can create with the guisdk

its also how convolve eq can work with the scope

the .dll is seen in the dsp atoms folder

so it uses a mixture of native and scope dsp

so if you have a 4gb win32bit machine you can use very large multi samples i did some 1gb multi velocity multilayer e-piano samples and they play perfect in
scope modular

and modular you have better modular control


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:16 am 
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here is a tron 8 choir every key sampled of its keys for its full length

the mellotron depending who did the tapes have 8-12 seconds long sounds when it gets to the end of the tape it stops once the key is released a weight pulls the tape back down to the start position

dante this is a sts multisample on the mellotron there is no velocity so you cant do velocity layers

this is a 13mb sample the samples were recorded at 22.5khz from tape which has a max frequency range of 32k

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3dy8mzpw6g1p ... 0choir.zip just load the sts text file into the sts osc and it will load all the multi samples


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:26 am 
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Cool thanks I will try it out. I have a couple native versions of mellochior will see how this compares.


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:37 am 
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please do also let me know if the sts file has full lfo to pitch as

im using a new conversion process as sf2 and direct sts if not converted by the sts samplers have this quirk of full lfo to pitch set

that you have to remove the modulation on the modular

akai conversion is ok for single layer instrument but multilayer it sets all layers to full velocity

unless the akai file is converted again by the sts samplers

so if you can let me know if this new conversion process is working correctly

i will go with it thanks


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:05 pm 
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/abueuaebw9lpbq6/wurl.zip

here is a dx7II perfomance patch it uses a a/b version in a dual layer just like the dx1 and dx5 does

this is a dual layer one can you check for me that it plays good on your system otherwise im going to have to check the conversion routines again


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:25 pm 
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i've been doing classical / score hybrid style of music and that is where i want modular to shine.. don't want to use same sampled kontakt sounds as 1000 others. feeling of uniqueness is good :)

to my ears it seems that one can get pretty nasty sounds of modular. loved the outcome of midi controlled res filter sweeps serialized with cz saw osc filter sweeps, in parallel with a dozen other oscillators with unique sweeping applied to all. and i seem to prefer the midi control in the main sweeps over modulation so i can play with it in my composition. but individual parallel modulations to each osc must sound good as jhulk suggested.. not tried it out yet.

my knowledge especially in the area of juggernaut type apocalyptic overloaded stuff is very very limited and i would love to try that out. do they even do it digitally or does it require some real analog overloading etc? would love to learn how they actually do it.

still going thru jhulk's points and taking my time with them since i need to learn while doing it :) i wish i had more time


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:40 am 
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1 hour a day with learning each type of modulation source you will be an expert in no time

if learning about modulation jusrt set up one osc 1 filter and 1 amp 1 panning control

now add modulation to the pitch mod of an osc and just see what happen at different rates of env and lfo and a mixture of the 2 you will need a mod mixer for that

then do the same to the filter using the filter cutoff and res see what happens see what happen if you dont modulate the cutoff but just the res

on a formant filter you set the frequencies to your formant but for modulation you modulate the res to make it change

do the same to the vca and then the panning module by learning modulation thats were the key is to performance

as at the end of the day any sound source can be used external internal

learn about feedback you need a 1sample delay for this take the output from the osc and take it to a 1sample delay feedback module and take it to the pitch mod input see what happens the more amount of modulation you add

am and ringmodulation and am modulation via a sample

if you take 2 sound sources into a ring modulator you get the sum difference of the 2 now if you mix that back with the original signal you add extra harmonics or inharmonics

volume am modulation take a synth source into a am module as the carrier and in the modulator take a drum sound now the drum transient will shape the synth sound source but keeps it frequency content

just experiment just for a hour each day and write down your findings in a journal with date so that you make a record of your modular journey then if you forget something its easy to look back at what you did and the full results you got for what you were doing


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:08 pm 
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Great advice.
Naturally after Mod Source, Mod Destinations.
Solaris is really kind of like Modular, with all the basic combinations built in.
Everything I do in Modular is to enhance Solaris, extra Filters in Modular Shells using the audio inputs, etc.
Also use Modular to give me sounds I cannot achieve with current hardware.

It is wise to fill the gaps with Modular creations.
I actually am going to use my Modular patch that had emulations of Guitar feedback and add it my last Kontakt purchase from a Christmas sale.
So even Kontakt will go into Modular, and what the Native limitations are, Feedback, etc.
Modular will fill the gaps.

Last purchase was a pretty cool Metal Guitar I have been longing for.
Love doing backing rhythm tracks and double leads, w/ Power chords in the left hand.
Makes playing keyboards fun. Do the acoustic parts myself too.
Guitar players appreciate it as with only a single guitarist that does nice full rhythms, when they go to play lead the entire fullness of the groove is gone.
Unless of course it's four piece using lots of Dirty B3 stuff.

This guys demo finally sold my picky ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... f2QFbxZYns

But Modular is for the creative side in us, no doubt about it.
For the Scope Warrior, DSPs are his weapons,.................Modular.................A way of life.

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https://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/solaris-demos-1
http://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/sol ... akt-tunes/


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:04 am 
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yesterday had some quality time with my modular and since oscillators. indeed you can get very impressive sounds with pitch modulated oscillators. i could hear bumblebee talking to me :)

i only tried sine and waiting to try more with other waveforms and combinations.


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:33 am 
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dawman wrote:
Last purchase was a pretty cool Metal Guitar I have been longing for.
Love doing backing rhythm tracks and double leads, w/ Power chords in the left hand.
Makes playing keyboards fun. Do the acoustic parts myself too.
Guitar players appreciate it as with only a single guitarist that does nice full rhythms, when they go to play lead the entire fullness of the groove is gone.
Unless of course it's four piece using lots of Dirty B3 stuff.

This guys demo finally sold my picky ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... f2QFbxZYns


I got it aswell from their black friday sales.. that level of detail is astonishing. They've done quite a bit of work with that.

High quality instrument template is what I need to create what I really want, to not be limited by the tools I have. And as a cherry on top I need Modular, a sound that not many possess. Hope to promote it too to give our SC guys business some kick in the butt :)


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:05 pm 
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I need a kick in the butt for not mastering this after owning it for years now. Just recently saw it's relevance as I turned to hardware more, giving me the ability to use Modular with several large patches and they are recallabel by assignments too.
Most Scope synths don't recall DSP assignments, Modular does. It really helps when getting bigger loaded projects.
I actually love to keep all devices on their own DSP, with the exception mixers.
This works good for me.

Try assigning a Modular patch to DSP 18, do NOT clear the assignment, then save project and re open, ypou'll see what I mean.

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https://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/solaris-demos-1
http://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/sol ... akt-tunes/


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:18 am 
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it is about time to start mastering then :)

i will travel to thailand tomorrow for 3 weeks holiday and i can honestly say i feel a little sad because i cannot play with modular sounds all that time... a bit crazy i know. but maybe i will return with a ton of new fresh ideas.

thanks for all your advice so far.


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:46 pm 
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Finally back to business: learning to create sounds with my Modular IV.

As I am slowly getting there I decided to test my first Modular device attempts in action. All synth sounds in the following test tune are produced by Modular IV using my newly created devices, check it out and comment please.

Oh and the name is Q Continuum. It wanted to be called that :)

https://soundcloud.com/pekkakuronen/q-c ... re-modular


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:37 pm 
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impressive :)
a Vinco on it woud soften the litlle-little harshness of the high syntht sounds,
Respect tho :)


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:08 pm 
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i tried to dress it well for the testing but it i feel i am not there yet, not even close. so far i had to experiment different combos and sometimes find something. i don't have vinco but maybe i can do similar effect with some modular/scope device?

ihulk: i tried to modulate VCA with FM modulator but i did not get any good results.
with pitch modulation i got nice things when i used FM modulator from modifiers, made it follow the main frequency from MIDI with one parameter hooked to MIDI (constant slider). would there be a better way to do this?

the pioneers in synth design and sound crafting must have their hands full


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 Post subject: Re: help in crafting your own sounds
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:46 pm 
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small steps small steps...

here is a modular device with midi CC #11 wired to FM operator and feedback amplitudes giving a nice swell kind of sound. i think it works pretty well for bass and also can get quite crispy upper pitch chords when playing with CC11. made it polyphonic too.


Attachments:
peksi-bass-01.zip [550.36 KiB]
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