Something about MIDI controller support in BC Modular

[sharc]

SCOPE talking directly to hardware without the need for loopback drivers and such would also be good.

Scope wouldn't even need to communicate directly with the hardware. Windows communicates with the hardware. The software MIDI IOs of Scope would only need to communicate with Windows the same as any other audio software does to access various hardware MIDI IOs.

My little project was actually so I can use a USB only device (novation keyboard) with synths or into scope directly, as I was getting shitty latency going through the computer (via DAW or loopback). Fine for control, bad for drum pads and such. And horrible for MIDI clocks. I have found that from midi port into a DAW: the XITE's MIDI latency and jitter is the best out of any device I've ever owned.

I've noticed similar problems in the past using a number of USB MIDI interfaces. Clock jitter can be really frustrating. I know it's cliché to sing the praises of the old Atari ST MIDI, but it was in a different league to some of the PC interfaces. The Atari Falcon with SMP II had an even better MIDI clock iirc. Good to hear the XITE performs well on that front.

The iConnect2+ and 4+ can do that (not just iOS devices, but also USB Only keyboards can be routed directly to a MIDI port without going into a computer anywhere, or directly to a network).

I was looking at it before and wondering if it offers any more than my Akai SS25. I guess that answers my question

[sunmachine]

The iConnect2+ and 4+ can do that (not just iOS devices, but also USB Only keyboards can be routed directly to a MIDI port without going into a computer anywhere, or directly to a network).

Actually only the iConnectMIDI4+ can do that, since the little brother doesn't have a built-in USB host.

[Eanna]

Midi over USB In

I'm not sure that's what Eanna was getting at.

Indeed, to be clear, what I was alluding to was a device in Scope that could see the same Midi Ports that a DAW can.
I'm tired of using either a blank Ableton project or Midiox to route Midi from my basic USB controllers to Scope. Altho I haven't experienced / had a problem with latency.

Yes, as per what Sharc said, there is no theoretical reason why it couldn't be done. There are enough interface points with the native OS in existing devices to ensure that there is plenty of precedence for such a facility to be made available in the Scope domain. Heck, some devices even come with DLL's!

[Bud Weiser]

Indeed, to be clear, what I was alluding to was a device in Scope that could see the same Midi Ports that a DAW can.
I'm tired of using either a blank Ableton project or Midiox to route Midi from my basic USB controllers to Scope. Altho I haven't experienced / had a problem with latency.

Yes, as per what Sharc said, there is no theoretical reason why it couldn't be done. There are enough interface points with the native OS in existing devices to ensure that there is plenty of precedence for such a facility to be made available in the Scope domain. Heck, some devices even come with DLL's!

That´s why Copperlan will come embedded in SCOPE 6 and it´s what I´m waiting for most !
SCOPE 6 w/ Copperlan embedded will recognize any MIDI device connected to your computer regardless which connection it is,- USB, serial or parallel or simply networkswitch and some kind of Alyseum ALeX modules in your controllers.

Bud

[sharc]

I'm really looking forward to Copperlan in Scope6. Like I said earlier in this thread, I've no idea what it'll mean for BC Modular. Like the rest of you I could hazard some guesses but then I'd rather be surprised than disappointed.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that the Modular isn't your average Scope device. You only need to look as far as Noah, ASB boxes and XTC mode to see that. So what you can do with Copperlan and other Scope devices isn't certain to apply equally to Modular.

It does make me wary of putting too much effort into certain aspects, but I'm not dreading it at all. If it somehow makes half of my work on BC redundant through doing a better job then why would that be bad? Better Control's the whole point after all.

[Eanna]

Indeed. And there's the chance that Scope6 may not work on PCI cards - there's mention that Xite is throttled because of Scope's backward-compatibility with PCI cards.
Not being an Xite owner, I personally would have no issue with Scope6 being incompatible with my PCI Cards - it's the natural cost of progress, and Scope6 and Xite are Sonic Core's products, after all. A healthy S|C is always going to be a good thing.

I'm just glad Scope 5.1 on PCI cards is compatible with 64-bit Windows... Gives me years with my PCI cards. I was on XP for ten years, my PCI cards are pushing 13-14 years - here's to the next decade!

So yeah, for us on our PCI cards, BC Modular and any future additions may be the only solution for Copperlan-style integration with this, that, and t'other...
Who knows?

[dawman]

Speaking of how great the fantastic DSP cards still are, I have seen new designs from Supermicro, who always wait for new products to mature avoiding the Asus/Gigabyte/MSI/ASRock race to release buggy motherboards that need to be fixed during the free BETA tests conducted by consumers for the 1st 6 months, that have PCI slots and chassis/motherboard combinations designed for PCIe SSDs, and mSATA connectors.
One particular combination allows 32GBs of RAM, 2 x PCI FLength/FHeight cards, a space for 2 x 2.5" SSDs, or a large mechanical 3.5" HDD, and this all fits in 15" deep 1U Chassis that looks incredibly well designed.
This means guys who like PLAY/VSL/Kontakt can load massive templates, and if using the new mSATA sticks for the OS will have 2 x SSDs for the smaller instruments @ 500MBps transfer rates. Perfect for guys with 2 x Scope Pros not wanting to upgrade to the XITE 1Us.

But let's say you have an XITE-1 already.
The horizontal 2 slot PCIe chassis can accomodate your PCIe 1X S|C Connector, the other slot a PCIe 8X SSD of 240GB size for 400 bucks from Mushkin.
It has a trandfer rate that is 3.2 times faster than SATA III SSDs. 1.8GBps and the random reads, (which mimic the way we play notes on a controller that uses RAM buffers prior to streaming) are almost 200k, slightly over twice the rate of my SATA III SSDs.

Pretty amazing how fast the new hardware has become. But not as amazing as the way S|C allowed older DSP cards to live through another decade of use.
The motherboard also boasts 7 years use with a 5 year warranty.
Supermicro and Soniccore are 2 incredible manufacturers anyway you look at it.

[Bud Weiser]

I'm really looking forward to Copperlan in Scope6. Like I said earlier in this thread, I've no idea what it'll mean for BC Modular. Like the rest of you I could hazard some guesses but then I'd rather be surprised than disappointed.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that the Modular isn't your average Scope device. You only need to look as far as Noah, ASB boxes and XTC mode to see that. So what you can do with Copperlan and other Scope devices isn't certain to apply equally to Modular.

It does make me wary of putting too much effort into certain aspects, but I'm not dreading it at all. If it somehow makes half of my work on BC redundant through doing a better job then why would that be bad? Better Control's the whole point after all.

I don´t see what the point is at all.
When there´s Copperlan embedded w/ SCOPE 6, there will be virtual MIDI ports visable in the, now "embedded" manager application which does the routing, merging, re-channelizing and such.
BC Modular will be in the SCOPE environment and profit from that MIDI routings,- nothing special except you haven´t installed a separate Copperlan manager application like you have to do up to now as also use MIDIOX for the time being.
A separate installation of Copperlan manager as well as virtual MIDI cables like MIDIOX will be obsolete later.

Now you asked which controllers we use and it´s obvious the users use all kind of available controllers, old and new and that will change continuously because new controllers appear on the market.
Copperlan doesn´t interest what´s in use, it recognizes a MIDI device and that can be also a standard MIDI interface connected to the computer.

The advantage of Copperlan and MIDI over LAN will be the higher bandwidth for simultaneously running MIDI streams, sysex info and multiple MIDI clocks available on the same MIDI bus/port.

Now, when you´ll have a modern machine running Win 7 or 8 and XITE and SCOPE 6 one day and a older machine, XP or Win 7 32Bit w/ the PCI cards,- there´s no restriction connecting both machines and only ONE set of controllers to the network switch and working w/ Copperlan as the main MIDI management & routing application.

I don´t see why Copperlan should make your work for BC Modular redundant in any way.
Be happy Copperlan will deal not only w 14Bit but 16Bit MIDI.
So, once there will be any physical controller transmitting 14Bit MIDI throughout, Copperlan will pass thru that resolution and BC Modular will deal w/ that the way YOU have in mind as a designer of BC Modular.

I think you won´t get this w/ old MIDI interface hardware, standard MIDI cables and physical DIN ports, mergers and thru boxes and all the old stuff existing still today.

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

So yeah, for us on our PCI cards, BC Modular and any future additions may be the only solution for Copperlan-style integration with this, that, and t'other...
Who knows?

You can use Copperlan Manager software already now and w/ your old DSP PCI cards.
The only disadvantage is, SCOPE needs MIDIOX or similar to connect to all the other MIDI ports available across the computer.
That will not change w/ BC Modular because it needs the SCOPE environment.

It will only change w/ the rebuild of the SCOPE environment itself and that will be SCOPE 6 (Open SCOPE).

OTOH, MIDI OX isn´t bad and a good compromize when using previous SCOPE versions.
I don´t know if it is a bottleneck bandwidth wise,- maybe it is, maybe not.

Bud

[sharc]

I don´t see what the point is at all.
When there´s Copperlan embedded w/ SCOPE 6, there will be virtual MIDI ports visable in the, now "embedded" manager application which does the routing, merging, re-channelizing and such.
BC Modular will be in the SCOPE environment and profit from that MIDI routings,- nothing special except you haven´t installed a separate Copperlan manager application like you have to do up to now as also use MIDIOX for the time being.
A separate installation of Copperlan manager as well as virtual MIDI cables like MIDIOX will be obsolete later.

Now you asked which controllers we use and it´s obvious the users use all kind of available controllers, old and new and that will change continuously because new controllers appear on the market.
Copperlan doesn´t interest what´s in use, it recognizes a MIDI device and that can be also a standard MIDI interface connected to the computer.

The advantage of Copperlan and MIDI over LAN will be the higher bandwidth for simultaneously running MIDI streams, sysex info and multiple MIDI clocks available on the same MIDI bus/port.

Now, when you´ll have a modern machine running Win 7 or 8 and XITE and SCOPE 6 one day and a older machine, XP or Win 7 32Bit w/ the PCI cards,- there´s no restriction connecting both machines and only ONE set of controllers to the network switch and working w/ Copperlan as the main MIDI management & routing application.

I don´t see why Copperlan should make your work for BC Modular redundant in any way.
Be happy Copperlan will deal not only w 14Bit but 16Bit MIDI.
So, once there will be any physical controller transmitting 14Bit MIDI throughout, Copperlan will pass thru that resolution and BC Modular will deal w/ that the way YOU have in mind as a designer of BC Modular.

I think you won´t get this w/ old MIDI interface hardware, standard MIDI cables and physical DIN ports, mergers and thru boxes and all the old stuff existing still today.

Bud

Bud, I know you mean well, but you really didn't need to explain all of that to me. It's not necessary. I've already said I'm not going to speculate, but if Modular were to be given the 16-bit control you mention throughout by Copperlan or whoever then yes, it would make the 14-bit control modules (all 5 or 6 of them) of BC Modular redundant for those users who have the controllers to take advantage of it. Like I said that can't be a bad thing. I don't see what I've said that could have given you the impression I'm unhappy about Copperlan.

I'm really looking forward to Copperlan in Scope6

[Bud Weiser]

I don't see what I've said that could have given you the impression I'm unhappy about Copperlan.

I´ve probably misread your post because I understood 16Bit resolution for MIDI in Copperlan might destroy your work on 14Bit modules in BC Modular.
Maybe language prob here, sorry.
I never had the impression you´re unhappy w/ Copperlan in general.

Bud

[Dati]

I am using m-audio uc33e midi controller now, but im not really happy with it.
Now i have read that this midibox project does transmit higher resolution, and i am very interested in this one.
I wanted to build a midibox sid for months now, and this midi controller has made it on my to do list now also.

Ill let you now when i have finished the controller, which could be in the more far future...
Would be very nice to have a bcmodular pannel for it!

With kid regards,
Manuel

[sharc]

I don't see what I've said that could have given you the impression I'm unhappy about Copperlan.

I´ve probably misread your post because I understood 16Bit resolution for MIDI in Copperlan might destroy your work on 14Bit modules in BC Modular.
Maybe language prob here, sorry.
I never had the impression you´re unhappy w/ Copperlan in general.

Bud

No worries Bud. It's my bad. Having reread my posts I could probably have worded a few things better.

16bit resolution no matter how well integrated into Modular wouldn't 'destroy' my work as there will still be plenty of modular users who wont have the 16bit controllers and will still use regular MIDI CC's and extended 14bit control instead. I know I'd definitely be tempted though.

It's more likely to mean I've got my work cut out for me with new features to add to BC.

[sharc]

I am using m-audio uc33e midi controller now, but im not really happy with it.
Now i have read that this midibox project does transmit higher resolution, and i am very interested in this one.
I wanted to build a midibox sid for months now, and this midi controller has made it on my to do list now also.

Ill let you now when i have finished the controller, which could be in the more far future...
Would be very nice to have a bcmodular pannel for it!

With kid regards,
Manuel

Thanks Manuel. I look forward to hearing more from you.

Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you have any questions about 14bit control in BC Modular.