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 Post subject: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:55 pm 
Firstly a few useful links:

http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/303-unique.html

http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/303-slide.html

So exponential curves on the decay can juice things up a little.


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:24 am 
I have found that messing with the decay curve can yield some really nice results BUT that it is so fiddly to set up it's almost hradly worth the effort as any modulation of other parameters tends to through delicate adjustments I made right out the window :o

Now this may be my fault I'm not sure yet but if any one else wanted to try then let me know and I will upload the mod patch.

Other way around it could be to simply adjust the velocity curve on the MVC to be exponential. I will soon find out :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:22 am 
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Thanks for the links :)


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:53 am 
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You're way ahead of me - I'm still finishing up lesson 1


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:58 am 
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Thanks for the link.
I understand:
Quote:
The Volume Envelope Generator (VEG)
Sharp attack, exponential decay, fixed decay and rather long
time. (In the Devil Fish it can be altered between very short,
normal and infinite sustain.)
Drives the VCA and does nothing else.
to be meaning: exponential decay for the ADSR that controls VCA.
Attachment:
adsrVCA.JPG
adsrVCA.JPG [ 65.67 KiB | Viewed 2993 times ]


We should experiment with other adsr. Unhappily, I can't do that with Flexor at the moment, I'll get activation keys later on this week.


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:43 pm 
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On that ADSR you can use Slope, for envelopes that don't have such option, there's VCA Exponential. A ringmodulated envelope xfading with the original envelope would do the same.
Note that all these make the whole envelope exponential, not just the Decay. But since you're after a snappy Attack, I guess that won't hurt :)

[edit] you guys didn't trick me in doing your homework eh? :D

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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:45 pm 
Seems as though the MEG being discussed is the envelope that controls the filter which would be the ad vintage in our case. The VEG would be the ADSR. I have tried loading ADSR (& mod) vintage mod 3 module which has a slope parameter for the decacy. But I'm thinking that if there is an exponential decay on the the velocity curve itself it would apply it it all parameters being modulated so may sound better. Can't check this out now as I'm in the middle of a 4000 word essay :/


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Yeah I'm doing this in the middle of OU work and going out to work, so I have to fit it in a short space of time. It means the tracks are very unpolished, unfinished and raw - just rough sketches

The Volume Envelope Generator (VEG)

Sharp attack, exponential decay, fixed decay and rather long
time. (In the Devil Fish it can be altered between very short,
normal and infinite sustain.)

Drives the VCA and does nothing else.

Thats the ADSR controlling the Lin VCA so :
So you want the attack fast / decay very high up so it dies out slowly and sustain/release at 0
Change the slope setting to exponential


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:23 pm 
dbmac wrote:
You're way ahead of me - I'm still finishing up lesson 1


No worries db it's not a race by any means look forward to hearing your track...Mine could do with an extra 10 secs got any spare :lol:

at0m wrote:
On that ADSR you can use Slope, for envelopes that don't have such option, there's VCA Exponential. A ringmodulated envelope xfading with the original envelope would do the same.
Note that all these make the whole envelope exponential, not just the Decay. But since you're after a snappy Attack, I guess that won't hurt :)

[edit] you guys didn't trick me in doing your homework eh? :D


Right at0m I kind of stumbled across this today looking at one of the offcial flexor patches the tb free -0- free

In the guts of the circuit you can see the ring mods which in the case of the deacy is connected to the multi val and the amplitude modulator

Attachment:
crop expo env.JPG
crop expo env.JPG [ 202.58 KiB | Viewed 2827 times ]


The circuit that isistoy is the circuit we are working with so these additions wouldn't count in the homework anyway. It's just useful info I think

So you haven't been suckered at0m. Honest :D

strav100 wrote:
Yeah I'm doing this in the middle of OU work and going out to work, so I have to fit it in a short space of time. It means the tracks are very unpolished, unfinished and raw - just rough sketches

The Volume Envelope Generator (VEG)

Sharp attack, exponential decay, fixed decay and rather long
time. (In the Devil Fish it can be altered between very short,
normal and infinite sustain.)

Drives the VCA and does nothing else.

Thats the ADSR controlling the Lin VCA so :
So you want the attack fast / decay very high up so it dies out slowly and sustain/release at 0
Change the slope setting to exponential


Unfinished and raw sounds good enough :)

You're right on the adsr.

Isistoy this one offers the decay mod

Attachment:
adsr mod vintage.JPG
adsr mod vintage.JPG [ 16.26 KiB | Viewed 2937 times ]


Last edited by irrelevance on Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Thanks At0m,
I learned sthg with adsr slope.
At0m wrote:
A ringmodulated envelope xfading with the original envelope would do the same

Now I am not sure to understand why these combination makes such result. I think I understand cross fading, but what would ring mod do with second envelope signal?


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:44 am 
iSiStOy wrote:
Thanks At0m,
I learned sthg with adsr slope.
At0m wrote:
A ringmodulated envelope xfading with the original envelope would do the same

Now I am not sure to understand why these combination makes such result. I think I understand cross fading, but what would ring mod do with second envelope signal?


Input 1 is multiplied by input 2 of a ring modulator. When something is continually multiplied by itself it will increase exponentially.

I may be misquoting Red, but I believe he mentioned that everything in scope is either +1 or -1 ( 2 to the power 31 or -2 to the power 31) so I think (not sure) the multi val is putting out the same maximum range as the envelope does +1/-1 hence the exponential effect


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:20 pm 
mod file link:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=28785


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:02 am 
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So RM is basically the same effect as using an envelope multiplier?


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:38 pm 
Yogimeister wrote:
So RM is basically the same effect as using an envelope multiplier?



Ring mod is essentially a linear function so it would be similar to using a linear vca. The lin vca may be optimsed for envelopes not sure. Give it a try in a patch and see if you like the results 8)


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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:48 am 
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RKuit has a Modular example patch where RM and ADSR give a powerful result. Got that from Solaris I believe.
Also JBowen's RD Modules Series II has a Self Multiple EG that can alter timbres in a positive way.
Then there's SAL's ultra snappy ADSR that when using the RIng Mod trick really gets things cracking.

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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:04 am 
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i think without the right filter type it would be hard to emulate it to a close aproximation. you need the distortion on high Q setting. distortion or shaping of some sort inside the filter itself, inside the reso circuit, something like the flexor LP3 rubber but not quite.

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 Post subject: Re: TB303 discussion
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:04 am 
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Agreed..
During the Modular classes we took Assaf threw together a fast TB303 and using a distortion module (soft) pre VCA and another after, then stock SC Multi A filter was getting gnarly from the get go....

Those vids are going to great to soak in when I get some time in May, thanks again Faxi.

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