PlanetZ DEAD OLD graveyard? NO WAY!!!

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 2:18 am

This really is unfair! I understand frustration, but this is just not true! This forum is in itself the best forum about Pulsar and its use, unquestionably. And is becoming better every time.

I think that our problem is that we have TOO MUCH to play with! Long ago, all of those great classical composers, real genius of creativity like: Albéniz, J. Malats, J. S. Bach, Haydn, Beetowen, C. Sint-Saënes, V. A. Mozart, F. Schubert, Häendel, and many many others, needed practically nothing to do Works of Art that we will probably never mach, even with hundreds of computers and fifty pulsar cards plugged into each of them!

They would even compose without instruments… And their music is still GREAT, unbeatable! Most of them used a keyboard, as a means to develop their ideas and in those times composers would pay more attention to the music than to technology. I think that we are becoming far too attached to technology and we are slowly but sure decaying in creativity giving up the real goal which is TO MAKE MUSIC. At least, this is what I can hear at most radio stations of popular music. Everything is becoming a mechanical process of doing music and feelings are been replaced by superficial sensations.

I feel a bit like if we all were becoming spoiled children. Like if we were developing kind of a syndrome we could call "the Christmas syndrome" or "No-daddy-I-don't-like-it-I-want-something-else". When you have something new, so you want something else. When you get it, it's done, and now you want something else again, but you don't learn what you have, you just store it onto your HD. It's like a sort of drug… In fact, it seems to me that what we really want is just something new for the sensation of it, to feel that we have something new, but not because we really need it or will actually use it.

Think about the performances of many Rock Festivals by the 60s, they were absolutely astonishing! What a strength, what an energy! Think of Joe Cocker… do you think hi used Antares Autotune to be able to sing the way he did? Obviously not, because this technology didn't even exist yet. Think about the early times of Jeff Beck band, when they were to use just instruments plugged onto a desk as the only resource for sonic power, and they were just smashing! Well…

I don't thing we do not have within our human nature the power to create such good music as Haydn or Beetowen did, but I do believe that our extreme lack of practice into the fields of real performance, real tuning, real composing, etc., is getting us into a robotic state of things. Some may like it, sorry, I don't. I think I can have the freedom to think that way. I do not like machine music, but rather human music.

If we were to pay a little more attention to the compositional stage, to the ideas, to the refinement of our conceptions, if we were to search for deeper feelings, not just sensations, etc., our music would last forever instead of been another boring connection of sounds without a soul, that will very soon be forgotten for ever.

Don't take me wrong. I would LOVE to own the whole collection of plug-ins on earth available not only for Pulsar, but for VST as well if I could afford them. But the mater is to give to these invaluable items, the place that corresponds to them. I can not rely in plug-ins to compose, I compose, then I use plug-ins.

I'm still creating pre-sets from my Modular I, which is the one I own and I'm surprised at the amazing different things you can do… I really think that we all have far more than what we need, all we have to do is to use it.

Hyper congratulations to Planet Z and to you John for this incredibly Site, which I love so much… I feel I'm in a place full of musical friends.

algorhythm · Post by **algorhythm** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 5:45 am

classical composers ARE great and they did manage to create many different styles of music and elicit many different emotions in their audience. *BUT* they were limited to naturally produced sounds. I do not recall Bach or Wagner creating drum 'n bass tunes with 30hz sine wav bass and 8 bit drums at 185 bpm - but then again, I have not heard all of there works.

yes, many electronic musicians do not possess or utilize good compositional skills, but this is no reason to not have the best available tools. it is a reason to develop good compositional skills, which can be used in conjunction with the best available tools. . .

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 6:12 am

A little dob of criticism and sharp comment does everyone some good from time to time. Endless back-patting leads nowhere but complacent inertia. And here it's certainly generated more compliments than criticism.

On the subject of classical composers I think your comparison is a little wild. You're taking some of the all-time genius-level musicians over a period of several hundred years and comparing them to afer-work bedroom composers, many of whom haven't had a single music lesson in their lives.

And many of them probably aren't even that interested in composing anyway. What about DJs and engineer types?

Music composition then and now are completely different beasts. Sure Beethoven may have composed on a detuned piano while going deaf, but he was gifted, spent decades in full-time practice, was a professional and basically was a musical demi-God.

The rest of us need plenty of high-tech aids. And even if we don't, so what ? Denial isn't going to lead to any spiritual awakening.

I've played in plenty of bands live and in the studio, but I find today that some of the greatest satisfaction comes from tweaking knobs on soft-synths. And the more soft-synths and the more knobs, the better. Now I tweak sounds and deliver wavs for muso friends of mine to write with.

Each to his own, but for me, bring on the synths.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 6:13 am

PS: "dead old graveyard" was specifically referring to the lack of updated web pages

John Cooper · Post by **John Cooper** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:46 am

i've already re-written a ton of code, and i just finished all the file uploading code last night. next i need to migrate all the old file data into new forums...

i'll be away this weekend, so look for changes mid/late next week.

cheers,
-john

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 4:12 pm

Nice insights guys. I agree with you about having as many tools as possible and I clearly said that. But tools and synths are not everything. I'm talking about priority. Music, to my understanding, has to have priority over technology. I know I've compared a completely different world, so retired from us that seems another planet (PlanetZ?) when talking about classical composers. But the point it precisely this, the fact that they didn't have any entertaining staff around them, so they had to pay attention to the essential, which is music.

I love technology, I love soft synths, I love plug-ins and software simulations, no doubt. But hey, the more we have, the more we need, this is a contradiction. I honestly think we have enough in Pulsar itself, to go on composing for the rest of our lives.

Mo · Post by Mo » Sat Jun 23, 2001 3:53 am

yes, only for composing i´m fine with just my guitar and a pen & a piece (or some more) of paper... that´s right. the second step is the aranging - for this i <i>definetively need</i> a sequencer

and the arranging goes without break into the process of production (this is for what there was no need in times of bach and beethoven). and that´s where our toys are great. and that´s why i never have enough of them. not for making music. no. these are two complete different things. i love and need to make both...

have fun / make music
Mo

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Sat Jun 23, 2001 5:59 am

Nestor, I think really we agree but are coming from things from opposite directions. Alhough I'm into heavy sampler/cyberpunk style music, the music I really love is classical. My ultimate dream would be a Pulsar system which perfectly simulated a full symphony orchestra and choir (and no, I don't think samplers even come close to achieveing this yet).

But simplicity is beautiful. I recently bought myself a $30 harmonica. Now all I need is a ticket out of the city, a campfire, a starry sky.....

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Sat Jun 23, 2001 10:43 am

Then, right Mo, this is the point. What you've just told me is what I mean exactly so yes of course we agree in that point.

Spirit, I actually like almost everything, I mean, all kinds of music and stiles. I pointed classical composers as being at a very height level of composition skills because of the beautifully elaborated and polited works of art they've made trough the centuries Pieces of music that can't die because they are so deep that will be there forever.

Nevertheless, If I were to choose a specific history date to make music, it would definitely be TODAY. Because we have everything you can possibly imagine to making music, professionally sounding and on a short budget. I would probably even choose tomorrow…

It's very nice to have people like you at hand, with whom you can talk and share about those things that only musicians are concern with. For me, to talk about those things is not just a talk; In fact, after I've reflected what others peoples' say about the way of composing music, it reflects immediately in they way I compose. So it becomes in fact a practical thing.

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Sat Jun 23, 2001 10:43 am

Then, right Mo, this is the point. What you've just told me is what I mean exactly so yes of course we agree in that point.

Spirit, I actually like almost everything, I mean, all kinds of music and stiles. I pointed classical composers as being at a very height level of composition skills because of the beautifully elaborated and polited works of art they've made trough the centuries Pieces of music that can't die because they are so deep that will be there forever.

Nevertheless, If I were to choose a specific history date to make music, it would definitely be TODAY. Because we have everything you can possibly imagine to making music, professionally sounding and on a short budget. I would probably even choose tomorrow…

It's very nice to have people like you at hand, with whom you can talk and share about those things that only musicians are concern with. For me, to talk about those things is not just a talk; In fact, after I've reflected what others peoples' say about the way of composing music, it reflects immediately in they way I compose. So it becomes in fact a practical thing.

Post by **garyb** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:23 am

i wish i was as important and great as some i have read in here.all sounds are good.the gear works or doesn't.the music is the point,vibration,the language of creation from the image of the creator.it's not the tools fault if the craftsman has no skill.pulsar works in it's actual functions and it is blessed that there is participation in the form of forums like this one,this website and john cooper.thanks.

Michaelj · Post by **Michaelj** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 7:02 pm

Nestor got a point.
I love my pulsar system
I got 2 boards now

I love my Mac
I love plug in for Audio and Video

I can do what I always have dreamed on
but...I did more songwriting
with my Guitar and a synth and my
old Atari back in 92

But I would NEVER get rid of what I have to day, but sometimes (to often)
I download another free synth or a demo or a ........
ok I now its me as a person (but i think many of u are the same) he he.

I have signed different smaller record and publishing deals during the years. and I got a new interested coming up.
so for me... I GOT to stop
trying everything and start to make killer
hit songs

with the stuff I got
and I got more than i need. he he.

then when I got that melodi and a great demo. I can start to MIX it and experiment until my brain explode

or I let a producer do that mixing,
and I go and compose hit nr 2 and 3 ...

Michael from Sweden

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 4:26 pm

Well said

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 12:18 pm

Yowsers... we're talkin' about the big guys now eh... Well, one thing I know for sure is that Bethoven and guys worked with what they had. They only had natural instruments back then so that's what they used. If we gave Bethoven a Scope platform, he'd probably whipped some serious ass with it... The thing is, music is a creative process and being creative is working with what's available... and combining them together to establish a creative statement. WHAT it is exactly that I work with isn' too important to me. All I need to know is that I'm using it to the full extent. Who knows... maybe Bethoven's wish was to have a cello with morphable resonating body so he could dynamically change the cut off and resonance... we'd never know what sort of sounds he had in mind.

Another point I wanted to make to build on what's already been said is about technology being the ultimate boundary of our imagination... Simply, if we didn't know what a saw wave sounded like, then it's unlikely for us to use the concept of a saw wave in our creative process... As much as our musical thinking is affected by the musical history, it is also affected by how a synth's interface is layed out, how the keys on the piano placed... etc. So I guess technology here means all these things. And if increasing your knowlege about technology gives you new bits and pieces to use during your creative process, I'd say why not? Though, it' very easy to fall into the pits where checking out the technology becomes the main point.

But even with all the yummy things technology can bring to our creative minds, I'd still have to agree that there is far too much to even attempt to explore. Besides, even if you chow down every single Pulsar plugin or VST plugin, there's still MAX/MSP and Csound/Cmix... or even Supercollider if technology is what you're looking for. The interesting point is... VA and modular and whatever else available as 'techno' style stuff isn't where 'techno'-logy is anymore. Which means, the kinds of sounds used in techno is being used because of what it is.. because it is appealing musically... not technologically. (well, apparently 'appealing' is subjective)

Anyway, just some insights I thought I'd share. It's always great to have so many thinking musicians around. You guys are great.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 9:05 pm

Whatever happened to Nestor? He used to be one of the regulars ...

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 8:09 am

I like Nestors new project "FOR THE FIRST FIVE" - great idea, and an excellent use of the community here on the 'Z...

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 8:43 am

Surprised this topic is still alive. I wasn't here because I was traveling and chanching life, so I was off the Forum about 7 or 8 months.

I would like to have a better English, I hope you understand everything well I know it's not as good as it should be. I sometimes would like to say more. Sometimes it takes me too long to say what I want to say...

Anyway, as I have already said, I'm happy to be back.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 9:03 am

I thought English was your first language ! Where are you from ? Where did you travel ?

ps: sometimes I think Plant Z should have a "coffee lounge" forum where we can rave on about non-CW stuff...

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 9:17 am

Yeah! Like the community forum at sonikmatter.
Could be nice...

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 9:37 am

Maybe sonikmatter would be a good second place. Excellent Kurzweil & Logic forums, I check that place all the time.