Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

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Bud Weiser
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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by Bud Weiser » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:05 am

garyb wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:51 am
no, not at the moment. i still have my old Vostro 1400, which does work great, but it's a little old now.
Well, I also thought about buying a used, older laptop, did some search for refurbished Lenovo and HP models, preferable something Intel i5 / i7 3rd, better 4th generation.
But I never had a chance finding out if all those BIOS setting in regards on energy savers and CPU throttling will be possible.
Instead I had the impression manufacturers denied user access to related BIOS parameters (or to BIOS at all) because they want to prevent the machine from overheating, once the more powerful processors are used.

So, I´m searching people using such machines for audio/MIDI, preferable w/ XITE and SCOPE,- but that seems to be rare.
I wonder if S|C used only desktop machines when testing for SCOPE 7 / Win10 or if Holger might have a laptop w/ PCIexpress adapter in the ballpark too ?
garyb wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:51 am
i'm pretty sure that the Thunderbolt to Expresscard adapter from Sonnet Technologies would open up the number of your opportunities.
Yep, but that´s another 200 -300 EUR until it´s here and in addition to the EUR 150,- expresscard cable.
It´s not an elegant solution though,- and still leaves the question for the right laptop allowing BIOS user access optimizing for realtime audio work.

According to an adapter which might work for both, desktop PC and laptop:

XITE has HDMI and I know the original S|C cable is replacable by any standard and good quality HDMI cable,- consequently should be the same pin-out right ?
So, when a desktop computer mobo offers (a) Thunderbolt connector(s), which is mini-display port for Thunderbolt 1 & 2 or USB-C for Thunderbolt 3.- why won´t any Thunderbolt (1,2 or 3)-to-HDMI cable not work directly ?
It saved a lot of EUR/ bucks for expresscard cable and Sonnet adapter and would be 1 device less to carry/ connect.

Also, what´s the Thunderbolt speed / data throughput required to run XITE-1 ?
Is Thunderbolt 1 or 2 fast enough ?
What about S|C selling such Thunderbolt adapter cable for XITE-1 / 1D replacing the PCIexpress-card cable ?
garyb wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:51 am
i had also built a 3 space rack-mounted PC with a server screen/keyboard/mouse unit that takes up 1 space. that was a pretty nice package that only took up a 4 space rack...
Yes, when I were younger and had no mobility issues ...
I own 3 4HU server rack cased PCs and have a hard time moving ´em around, especially over flights of stairs,- an obstacle I have to overcome since 3 years now when leaving my rooms.
I need all much lighter and smaller now ´cause I´m walking w/ a stick and have never both hands free anymore.
Destiny,- unfortunately ...

:)

Bud

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garyb
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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by garyb » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:01 pm

dunno about the cable. it might work, but i really don't think so because the interface that modulates the flow of data between computer and XITE will be missing. Thunderbolt of any flavor will work as it's basically PCIe. all Thunderbolt connections are fast enough.

i have not seen any computers that do not allow power stepping to be disabled.

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Bud Weiser
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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by Bud Weiser » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:34 am

garyb wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:01 pm
dunno about the cable. it might work, but i really don't think so because the interface that modulates the flow of data between computer and XITE will be missing.
Aaarghhhh,- I´m an idiot ignoring the "interface",- I didn´t think about it´s in the PCIexpress card.
garyb wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:01 pm
Thunderbolt of any flavor will work as it's basically PCIe. all Thunderbolt connections are fast enough.


Good to know,- thx !

So, for the future, it needed a new S|C outboard interface card/box for XITE connecting to HDMI on one side and to Thunderbolt on the other.
I wonder if that could be done w/ the existing PCIe x1 card for desktop PC.
Put it in a box w/ a PCIe x1 connector, then connect the right pins on the bottom of that connector to a cable feeding a Thunderbolt connector.
Possibly not much cheaper than the PCIexpress-card to Thunderbolt adaper,- but makes the dedicated PCIexpress-card cable for XITE obsolete ´cause one needs a Thunderbolt cable and the existing HDMI cable only.
garyb wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:01 pm
i have not seen any computers that do not allow power stepping to be disabled.
I have several dealers offering refurbished Lenovo and HP workstation laptops.
Those are powerful machines in good condition for fair prices.
I asked ´em for the BIOS features and they had no clue,- so I googled for the models and ended in user forums.
Deactivating Intel Turbo mode in BIOS seems to be the problem.
These laptop BIOS seem to be crippled/ different compared to destop computer mobo BIOS and it doesn´t seem to make a difference if it is UEFI or whatever.

It´s a big risk buying a good condition, 4th gen (Haswell) i7 laptop just only to find out.
I´d need someone w/ experience already confirming which brand laptop works for SCOPE/XITE,- and I don´t mean Core2Duo and such.
Would be great it at least accepts Win7 64Bit Pro and 16GB RAM and some constant stock speed allowing to run just only a handfull of good native VSTis in addition to SCOPE.

:)

Bud

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by garyb » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:00 pm

you can look at the bios options in the support section for the manufacturers of those laptops.

jksuperstar
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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by jksuperstar » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:21 pm

I've used a Lenovo W510, but think any W5 series with an Express card slot will work.

It should be plugged in,since the laptop really can't support the power of the i7 at that time without AC power.

That said, I would expect any decent modern laptop with thunderbolt would work. I have a Lenovo Yoga 730 now, but I just don't have a Thunderbolt to ExpressCard adaptor yet. For scope, I ended up building a 1U PC, i5-4690k based, and it is Rock solid. I'd recommend building a 1U over going laptop if you can, since they generally do have better performance for the $. You can put that in a small rack with scope, and have a very thing monitor/keyboard setup, that wouldnt be much different from a laptop + rack anyway.

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by Bud Weiser » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:25 am

garyb wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:00 pm
you can look at the bios options in the support section for the manufacturers of those laptops.
You mean, when downloading the manual ?

:)

Bud

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by Bud Weiser » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:33 am

jksuperstar wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:21 pm
I've used a Lenovo W510, but think any W5 series with an Express card slot will work.
Hmm, these are very old ones.
I´d try to find a i7, 4th gen or even younger i5 quad.
It´s all about TDP.
jksuperstar wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:21 pm
For scope, I ended up building a 1U PC, i5-4690k based, and it is Rock solid. I'd recommend building a 1U over going laptop if you can ...
Can you provide spme pics and share aparts list.
I´m interested in if it´s different from the 1HU solution DAWMAN uses.
When about colling,- is it loud ?

:)

Bud

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by garyb » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:04 am

Bud Weiser wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:25 am
garyb wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:00 pm
you can look at the bios options in the support section for the manufacturers of those laptops.
You mean, when downloading the manual ?

:)

Bud

uh....yeah.
:D

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by dawman » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:23 pm

Just went through a Windows 10 tantrum.
Kept telling me no LAN connections although a pair of W7s were on the router too.
I checked Device Manager and noticed my Avast Premier LAN thingamajig was disabled.
ReBooted a couple times, even though green lights show8ng I was receiving/sending on the LAN.
Then went and changed my time for updates as Micro$oft couldn5 get through.
October 2018 is installed now and everything is fine.
Seems I only lost my internet, so this is how they get your attention.
Much better than blocking the launch8ng of apps, etc.

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:57 am

garyb wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:04 am
Bud Weiser wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:25 am
garyb wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:00 pm
you can look at the bios options in the support section for the manufacturers of those laptops.
You mean, when downloading the manual ?

:)

Bud

uh....yeah.
:D
Well, I downloaded manuals for a HP and a Lenovo W540 which I´d prefer ´cause there are much more BIOS options accessable for the user.
I´d say, the energy saving options are complete, but for both the machines, no word about deactivation of "Intel Turbo Mode" in BIOS.

Do I misinterpret something ?
is it always called "Turbo Mode" in BIOS or do different terms exist and I don´t recognize it´s "Turbo Mode" ?

:)

Bud

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by garyb » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:49 am

not every processor supports turbo.
if it's not there, the processor probably doesn't have it.

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by Bud Weiser » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:49 pm

garyb wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:49 am
not every processor supports turbo.
if it's not there, the processor probably doesn't have it.
Unfortunately it has ...

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Cor ... 554.0.html

:)

Bud

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by garyb » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:37 pm

then it IS in the bios, or there's a newer bios.

however, Turbo isn't the biggest enemy. the is EIST.

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by Bud Weiser » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:54 am

garyb wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:37 pm
then it IS in the bios, or there's a newer bios.

however, Turbo isn't the biggest enemy. the is EIST.
O.k., thx for you input even it´s off topic and has nothimng to do w/ Win10 urgently.
I´m favorizing the Lenovo w540 for SCOPE/XITE-1 standalone operation since it offers a Intel i7 Haswell dual- or quad core processor, where the dual core variant w/ a TDP of 37 watts seems to be on the safe side.
It might also be possible to o/c it by a factor of 10% to about 3.2GHz constant speed,- when necessary at all.

There´s the Expresscard 34 slot and some model seem to offer Thunderbolt too, but I´d prefer investing into the S|C Expresscard cable/interface and go.
Nonetheless, the investment isn´t peanuts for laptop and S|C Expresscard cable,- so I want to be sure it will work.
The OS might be Win7 Pro 64Bit and already a pre-installed OEM version, depending on dealer for refurbished machines.
I don´t see I´d need Win8 or 10 urgently though.

in the attachment I put 8 pages from Lenovo t540-w540 setup program (which IS the UEFI - BIOS):

On page #4 (orig #115) are power relevant settings:

A.
Intel Speed Step technology > disable/enable > sub menue: Mode for AC and Mode for Battery > 3 settings:

1.) maximum performance (always the highest speed)
2.) battery optimized (always the lowest speed)
3.) disabled (the highest speed and runtime is NOT supported)

Question: When 3.),- does that mean the machine runs constantly on base CPU clock frequency (stock speed) 2.9GHz ?

B.
Adaptive thermal management > scheme for AC and scheme for battery:

cont. on page #5 (orig #116)

1.) maximize performance (reduce micro processor throttling)

Question: When 1.),- does that mean "Turbo" is off ... "reduction" means "deactivation" ???

2.) balanced (balance sound, temperature and performance)

Note: Each scheme affects soiound. temperature and performance

C.
CPU power management: disable / enable "stops the CPU clock automatically when there are no computer activities"

D.
PCI Express Power Management: disable/enable "automatically ajusts power management when there is NO PCI express activity."

On page #6 (orig. 117)

CPU >

Core Multi Processing > disable/enable
Intel Hyper Threading technology > disable/enable

That´s what I´ve found, but "intel Turbo" not mentioned.

So, do you think such machine will work great w/ XITE and SCOPE 7 (when I don´t use many ASIO channels) ?

thx for reading

:)

Bud
Attachments
ThinkPad t540p_w540_Setup p128-135.pdf
(847.74 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by garyb » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:01 pm

A. Turning off EIST means that the cpu always runs at full speed. EIST is strictly for power saving.
B. it means that the CPU is not throttled down to save energy. just set the cpu to 100% minimum and maximum.
C. disable it. you NEVER want the cpu clock stopped.
D. not too important, but unneeded.
multicore is good, but hyperthreading is useless, except for offline processes.

it SHOULD work very well.

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by Bud Weiser » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:19 pm

garyb wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:01 pm
A. Turning off EIST means that the cpu always runs at full speed. EIST is strictly for power saving.
B. it means that the CPU is not throttled down to save energy. just set the cpu to 100% minimum and maximum.
C. disable it. you NEVER want the cpu clock stopped.
D. not too important, but unneeded.
multicore is good, but hyperthreading is useless, except for offline processes.

it SHOULD work very well.
Wow,- that was quick !
Thank you,- most excellent news and advise !!!

I hope I can grab one in good condition now.

thx again,-

:)

Bud

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by garyb » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:24 pm

sure!

just disable power saving features and it should run well.

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by dawman » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:40 pm

I’m concerned about not being online all the time.
Will dubya 10 do stupid shit from that?
I always hook it up to check for updates when I’m not gigging.
But noticed it sometimes won’t let tha LAN LEDs on the faceplate side light up, and acts like it’s disconnected.
I’d hate to have crap go wrong when gigging.
Sometimes it’s offline for 4 days.

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Re: Windows 10 - what do I need to look out for?

Post by garyb » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:16 pm

that should be fine, but let it do it's thing from time to time. it's probably best to let it update.
this is the problem with consumer computer culture, but there isn't a real alternative, if you use computers.
it shouldn't suddenly combust or anything. win10 is mostly nice. it's full of things that you might not need or want, just like every major product of the last hew years, at least products that "make your life better".

there is rarely a real need to go to a new operating system, if the one you are using works. new hardware and software often demands it.


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