64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

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Fede
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64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by Fede » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:46 pm

Hello people, I'm still on 32bit. can anybody shed some light on the current status of 64 bit Scope drivers and modules?
thanks very much.

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petal
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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by petal » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:06 pm

If I could, I would go back to 32 bit Scope v5.1. I got a more complete version of Scope that way, but alas, modern DAW's and other PC needs have forced me to move on from 32 into 64 bit land. In Scope, it is not a better place to be. Not yet, but as they say - soon!

In other words, if you don't, for other reasons, need to go there, stay in 32 bit land for now.

Hopefully the next update to Scope 7, will make my comment obsolete.

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by t_tangent » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:03 pm

I dont disagree with Petal, but I would say why not set up a dual boot, keep your win 32 and have win 64 on second partition. Then when Scope 7.1 update comes you can review again. I still have my setup like that but I havent needed to boot into 32 bit for a while, as I use Asio I/O and native or outboard for sampling.

Another option if you have the space and $$ is to run Scope in 32 bit and then have a second PC for your DAW needs. Some other users here do this so may be able to help.

You don't say what version of Scope you are using, but Scope 7 works on 64 bit with some caveats. Bug on Wave inputs cause crackles (I think), STS samplers don't work. A few other issues but forget now. Check forum Scope 7 bug report.

See what others think then you will have a well informed decision but hope that helps some.

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next to nothing
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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by next to nothing » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:04 am

It's not straight forward, but as far as i understand there still is no true 64bit drivers, they are 32 bit drivers made "usable" on 64 bit systems to put it in a simplified way. It's of course a bit more complicated than that, but they will not work opmtimal in 64bit enviroments, especially in windows 10. more details here: http://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35349. It's really a shame as scope 7 is marketed as a win 10 upgrade.

Regarding the modules (i take it you are talking about modular modules?), there is also a lot to be desired. There are significant bugs in 64 bit that has existed since release 10 years ago, and are still not fixed (for all users).

So that is basically the status, and the reason i have still not upgraded to 7. I'm holding on to see if there will be a 7.1 fix, and hopefully we will see something ""soon"" ;)
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by garyb » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:22 am

what is a "true" 64bit driver?

the ASIO driver in v7 is a 64bit driver. the wave driver has a problem, but it is also a 64bit driver.

almost everything works in 64bit. the exceptions are mainly devices that use samples like the STS or Bowen's sample oscs.
the other main exception is XTC mode.

v7 IS a win10 upgrade as the ASIO driver is signed and certified by m$. it works perfectly fine in Win10.

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by next to nothing » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:56 am

By "true 64 bit driver" I mean a driver that handles 64bit adresses properly, as windows 10 (from what i learned in the thread i linked to) loads into 64bit space compared to windows 7 which loads into 32bit space. I am referring to ASIO drivers here. I would think when audio drivers are marketed specifically as a win 10 upgrade, this issue should be adressed pretty early in development.

It doesn't work "perfectly fine" in win 10 as long as you need to fiddle with compability settings etc., although i must admit it works way better than one should expect from a 20 year old product (i am referring to PCI here ofcourse). Some programs doesnt work at all without some sort of bridging or other work arounds.

And as far as i know a M$ signed driver doesn't say anything about the quality of the driver , it's just a way to authorize the vendor of the driver.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by garyb » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:55 pm

no soup for you. :roll:

i wouldn't be surprised after all the negativity over the years if Holger throw his hands in the air and gives up.

i use v7 in Win10 and produce music that gets to the radio for myself and others. it's not that the music that i make, record, mix and/or produce is so great, but it's not like i'm held back by anything other than my own lack of talent, either. i would say that is true for 99% or users. that doesn't mean it's perfect for anyone in particular, it doesn't mean that everyone should buy it. but it also doesn't mean that it should be avoided, IF YOU LIKE SCOPE AND WANT TO USE IT, or if you have an old card and want to use a new OS. it's no more complicated than that

is Windows bug-free? if not, then there will always be issues. the system is more complex than a simple calculator. you act like there's a crew at SC sitting on their thumbs and spinning around. you have no idea what issues are involved in a simple wave driver that certified genius coders have trouble with. i don't mind the criticism, but it's based on assumptions and suppositions, and i do abhor that. hey, consume away,

also, what a "signed driver" means is that m$ certifies that the driver follows protocol and is not malware.

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by valis » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:49 pm

You have conflated too many things together here @next to nothing, though I can understand your frustration.

The WAVE drivers issues have shown up many times over the years, and have more to do with the fact that Scope intends itself to be a realtime system that relies primarily on the DSP chips for all 'sync' (audiorate) processes. In order to work around this you either need to implement kx streaming (only Sonar & I think Reaper ever really supported this) or deal with a lot of latency in the windows audio stack *and* a samplerate conversion in the audio stack that cannot be bypassed.

Would you be happier to have everything work at the ASIO latency you specify, or to find out that your 'working' wave driver is internally converting to 96khz or 192khz internally, has 3 different 'mixer' points that can cause word-length issues and quantization error, and a resulting delay measurable in the hundreds of milliseconds? This is because it's intended to play back media files in the browser and windows media player and the like, rather than audio production. Hence the kx streaming extensions which enabled developers to 'bypass' the windows audio stack...yet if you research you'll find only a few products implemented this well and those products aren't even on the market now for the most part (barring RME which has a massive staff compared to S|C).

As for the other 'tuning' expected with a Scope PCI system, it's not as necessary with more current hardware but you'll also find that PCI support is far less common, so you have clear hurdles to face here. Up through the Core2 era, EIST/P states affected MANY audio systems, not just Scope. And scope is not your normal 'soundcard' as you are carrying a lot of traffic across the PCI bus when doing heavy dsp work (depending on what devices you use), it's not simply ASIO traffic as a 'normal' soundcard for audio work would use.

At the end of the day, if you like what Scope does you use it and build a system compatible with it. I have 2 RME systems here, a Scope system and 4 other machines that have a variety of soundcards and also are used for graphics related workloads. I do NOT sit around waiting for S|C to finally announce MacOS support to be able to use Logic, I simply made my machines work together based on the information available to me at the time.

I wish you the best =]

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by next to nothing » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:43 am

Yeah see i how came off wrong. I am talking about the ASIO drivers, not the wave drivers, but i didn't specify that clearly until my second comment. Thats why i linked to the discussion on ASIO driver performance in the first comment.
Wave drivers would be nice of course, making it possible to use multiple programs for audio at the same time within scope, but that wasn't my concern.

I really don't think there has been so much negativity it should put anyone out of their "programming job". OK, i have thrown a few comments here and there, but come on, one guy being a bit demanding shouldn't put anyone off. When you buy software costing triple digit, is it to much to ask for it to be maintained? At least get some effort put into it to iron out long existing bugs, especially for bugs that has allready been fixed but not put out to the public (mod 4). I was hoping S7 would be a fresh start, seeing some more development and fixing being made after the original sale, but after a year it doesn't differ much from S5.1 with regards to updates etc. which i think is too bad.

Anywhoo, as my first comment was ment as a response to the original thread starter, i could have stuck with "stick to 32bit for smooth operation", but i went a bit beyond and highlighted some issues. I guess i should have stuck to the line Jerry said once before Elaine got one of the many "no soup for you!" responses; "It's very important not to embellish on your order. No extraneous comments. No questions. No compliments." But since i am past that alleready, i wish all the best to the the two of you (and Holger!) as well :D
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by garyb » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:02 am

64 bit works GREAT for MOST uses.
i appreciate the softened tone, however, i should point out that the work that you wish IS being done. it may be too slow for you, but i can assure you that nobody is ignoring anything at S|C.

also, Holger doesn't have a "programming job". he has a company that he has invested his house and family into keeping alive and continuing work. really. if he didn't love Scope so much, there would be ZERO 64bit support and ZERO support for win7/8/10 and ZERO support for keys and ZERO support for any products. there is almost nobody, including nobody here at PlanetZ who would work so hard to keep Scope alive.

most of us can use Scope to our heart's content in 64bit(doesn't mean everything is perfect). again, to answer the op's question, XTC mode does not work in 64bit, the STS samplers and any sample OSCs that use the STS sample player do not work in 64bit. some sequencer modules do not work in 64bit. the Wave destination does not work in 64bit. of the other functions and possibilities(hundreds of plugins including most OLD free plugins), just about everything works. the few niggling bugs all have easy work-arounds(for example, delays used outside of inserts crash, but using a multifx module avoids the problem).

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by Spielraum » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:20 am

garyb wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:02 am
...he has a company that he has invested his house and family into keeping alive and continuing work. really. ...
thank you very much for all your time in the past, present and future
! CHEERS HOLGER+GARY !
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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by ChitJyoti » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:28 am

Hear! Hear!
:-)

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Fede
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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by Fede » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:03 am

Thank you all for your answers. the stability of the drivers is my primary focus in order to use the machine as a daw and communicate between programs. it seems I've to wait a bit more. then for the moment it seems simpler to use it in a dedicated 32 bit box for synths and some plugins. unfortunately vms cannot be used here.

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by garyb » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:37 am

actually, the ASIO drivers are VERY stable, even in 64bit.
if you need the samplers, then, yes. 32bit is the only choice.

the drivers are not involved with Scope plugins. the STS issues have nothing to do with the drivers.

vms? no.

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Re: 64bit drivers and modules: what is working and what is not

Post by Scotty_123 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:03 pm

Having had purchased 3 Oasys PCI cards and 2 Korg 1212 cards, EMU 1212 cards and even PCI RME cards that have all been abandoned (some as early as the advent of XP and/or OS X) the fact that I can run my 20 year old Creamware cards on a modern PC (Haswell 4770) really impresses me. I don't fault anyone for wishing for some fixes but I also temper my expectations knowing that theses old Creamware branded cards I use (and I have a few spares) continue to work when those other cards I have mentioned are either retired or sitting in dedicated Window 98SE or XP boxes. I am really happy to hear that development is continuing. Amazing.

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