AD/DA Converter comparisons?

[pdistefano]

Throwing out the question.......has anyone stacked up/compared the creamware/scope/ferrofish AD/DA converters directly against anything considered more "high end" such as the Prism or Antelope unit options.....and formed any specific conclusions/opinion?

I have been using Creamware A16 ultra's for approx 15 years, and recently the question arose with a colleague as to whether the benefit of adding additional high end front end outboard equipment (such as a neve 1073) running into it, or similarly the benefit of mixing down/summing externally via a Toft ATB32 channel console (as cI currently do) was that the "sonic potential would/is not being fully being capitalised upon" arguably due to the inferior conversion quality of the scope system converters as opposed to alternative (albeit more expensive) options.

I would think that ultimately until you have an opportunity to hear the difference directly side by side it is impossible to draw any accurate conclusions..

Since I haven;t really known anything much different to my own rig, I can't add anything further to this (tired ) debate, or form an opinion either way, however am interested in any comments/thoughts if anyone has had any experience or researched/tested this in further detail..

Does it really matter/make substantial difference to tracking and mix and save time in not needing to compensate for any arguably "inferior" conversion? I tend to think it's just better to get on with making music with what you know and deal with the quirks of your own rig vs throw into a never-ending quest of equipment upgrade....

I do seem to struggle with achieving what I'd consider "top end professional" clarity in the mix particularly when working with/mixing the analogue recorded signals (vs say sampled/soft synths) and still working out whether this is just an experience/skill thing (engineering/mixing) or whether I'm expecting too high a result from the equipment and resolution used to record (usually only 44.1kHz, 24 bit). I've experimented with higher res samplerate but could hear substantial difference to be honest....just larger file sizes and more computer resource issues

Any thoughts would be most welcome and appreciated.....Gary, I'm sure you've got 2 cents for me here ??

Thanks & cheers
Paul

[garyb]

well...
first, the hardware mixer is potentially more helpful that the converters could ever be harmful. i suspect you haven't tapped the Scope world's potential as a mixing platform, if the need is really there to go to a hardware console because you aren't happy with the results. hardware IS better, but the difference is subtle. an audiophile would notice pretty quickly, but then an audiophile has been listening to electrified sound carefully for quite some time. i'd say that the hardware that you mention is as good as stuff that costs three times the price, but of course there is a level beyond that which is much better.

this brings up an interesting problem. what will you listen on to hear this difference? (not even going to consider the audience at this point)

how big is the control room? if it's small, then you won't hear much difference.
how well has the room been treated acoustically? don't spend top dollar on hardware, if the room won't let you hear properly.
what monitoring system are you using? if you've done the room, then the speaker is part of the equation. so is the amplification.

those three questions should all be optimum, if you want to start talking about optimum sound. the AD/DA is important, it's true, but it's not nearly as important as those other factors. you can't be reveling in ultimate eq if you can't really hear it clearly, and the room and to a lesser extent(unless you have a ton of money) the speaker system is the main obstacle to hearing correctly.

it's good to experiment with hardware. you can't really understand Scope without experience with hardware. hardware is also better than any computer anything(if it's good hardware), but the are also serious disadvantages to hardware. it's less convenient, harder to automate and harder to connect to a sequencer without a lot of money. also, hardware patchbays, while wonderful once built(they last for decades) are a pain to make.

hardware also requires planning, because it's real and doesn't configure itself. it takes up space. that last item, plus the costs and rooms full of cables makes computers nice. if it's only about the ultimate sound quality, real, actual hardware is still the best. getting work done is also important, and unless you are a gear geek(which is perfectly a-ok), more important than anything else. from the point of view of the music, it needs to be competitive with the rest of the sound out there. soooo...get the best that you can reasonably afford and fix the room as much as you reasonably can do, and do some work. Gladiator got an academy award for sound using Creamware cards. listen to the movie, because it still sounds great. what you have is sufficient, but if you have money, there's nothing wrong with adding tools.

[garyb]

by the way-

front-end(mic pre) and mic choice and the room(again!) that you record in make a HUGE difference. mic pres are in recording consoles that can be had cheaply these days. they often have patch bays included, so less soldering. that a great way to get good pres if you have room. they look impressive and make great tables. i have a Soundcraft 1600($20to30,000 in the mid eighties about $1000 today), myself. for me it's only extra pres, a tt patchbay and monitoring system. i don't mix on it. it sounds great, though. i have few nice pres that get used first, Millenia, Demeter, Manley.

i vote for another mic pre or two, if you have extra money. other cool mics is great too! spend some money on the room(s) though, basstraps and diffusion.

listen to the frequency range that sounds fit into, in mixes that you like. cutting the other frequencies rather than boosting the ones you want to hear keeps the track from overloading and makes space for other things. the right mic/pre will do most or all of that job for you.

ok, now that's more like 5cents. you asked for it...

i think you are generally looking in the right direction.

[dawman]

I'm hearing a noticeable difference in sound quality from the Shure KSM8.
I'll be getting some more of these.
Exceptional vocal mic.