Is there any such Motherboard that ....

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garyb
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by garyb » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:42 pm

fraz wrote:
garyb wrote:Z270 works, so far.
7th gen i7s work, so far.
OK - Please provide some more info!!! - :) - 1150 > 1151 [-Z-170] > 1151 [Z-270]-And this works, wow - :) - How well does it work compared to Intel socket 1150? -

There was another guy on here who mentions it works to a point - But up to the point of 1150? - ??? - If so it is interesting - Intel i7 7700K gets another 10% in 4790K, is 4 core so is very similar to 4790K - But is it on a par working wise with 1150?
never tried, but Jimmy tried two which both worked fine:
http://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=34990

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by dawman » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:15 pm

dante wrote:If an Intel i7 quadcore is more powerful than an Intel i7 hexacore, then why did Intel make i7 hexacore?
He probably means Core locked synths run worse on slower hex, octo core CPUs.

Hang in there Dante.
I'm going with reason and AMD this Fall when the new AMDs come out.
I'm talking about the Ryzen 3 with Vega GPU built in.
If it doesn't work I'd be surprised.
Ryzen drivers are solid without any fixes needed for Lynx, MOTU and RME cards/racks.

Intel is a crapshoot.
If you want something for more synths and faster than Intel Ryzen 3 looks like a winner.
Intels last 4 releases need more Watts and should be 60% faster under Moores Law/Intel tick took, but they're not.
Their GFX and die shrink is what we saw.
They didn't think much of AMD until they got their asses spanked by smart marketting and a pretty powerful CPU.

I'd buy one now but don't like their memory controllers latency and transaction times.

This will change.

I'll be the XITE-1 Guinness Pig.

But personally I'd stay with any i7 from 2600-4790k.
The difference isn't that much really.

AMD OTOH wants some ass.
I think they'll get it as Intel has nothing but glue and extra Watts...

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by dante » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:23 pm

Awesome info. Heres the current AU$ prices for the 7700 - Z270 combo - theres a couple of Ryzen prices there as well for the Ryzen 7 topping out $675
combo-price-au$.jpg
MSY PriceList Extract
combo-price-au$.jpg (337.24 KiB) Viewed 1897 times
But I will await Ryzen results as well.

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Bud Weiser
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:35 pm

garyb wrote:if the z270 works, that'll be the most powerful system available...
Not for long !

X299 chipset is just released.
I guess as the successor of X99 it will work, just like Z270 as the successor of Z170 does.

Socket 2066 is official since june 19 also.

Skylake-X-CPUs,- Core i7-7800X (6 cores/ 8.25MB L3 cache/ $389.-), i7-7820X (8 cores/ 11MB L3 cache/ $599) and i9-7900X (10 cores/ 13.75MB L3 cache/ $999.-) ship next week.

Expect some "teething troubles" in the beginning since the release originally was planned for august 2017.
The early releases are obviously Intel´s answer on AMD Ryzen.

The "Basin Falls" platform offers 44 PCIexpress 3.0 lanes when choosing the i9-7900X, everything below is "only" 28 lanes.
But that´s all much more than you get from the consumer range of processors, mobos and chipsets, Z270 included.
And don´t ignore quad-channel (ECC)-RAM vs dual-channel (non-ECC)-RAM when streaming lots of samples as also not the larger L3 cache offering more voicecount.
The cache design itself changed too,- L3 decreased a bit, but L2 is now 4 times larger.

The processors get cheaper per core !
Previously $1.089.- (Core i7-6900K/ 8 cores) vs. $599.- (Core i7-7820X/ 8 cores) as an example.

Disadvantage: Good water cooling system recommended.

Buy NOW ???
I´d say NO !

It´s too early and the actual tests they did in previews are more or less meaningless ´cause we´ll see better performance later.
Motherboard revisions, processor steppings and BIOS updates will come.

But efficiency might be the main question for us.
Do we need that for "music" ?
A i7 quad core and Z270 will be still enough for the most and doesn´t break the bank.

But I also know, producers/composers running largest projects, p.ex. for scoring,- when they use Apple computers, they use the largest they can get,- multi-processors w/ multi cores, tons of RAM.
Apple uses Intel too and the latest greatest always.

So, when you can afford, why not in your future DIY PC build when you run software stand to benefit from count of cores, size of cache and quad-channel (ECC)-RAM.

Dunno if SCOPE benefits from the "latest, greatest",- but when running a lot of native stuff in addition, it might be the case.

:)

Bud
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:57 pm

dawman wrote:
He probably means Core locked synths run worse on slower hex, octo core CPUs.
Please tell,- how many of all the VSTs out there can be assigned and "locked" to by the user specified cores ?

And, do all VSTs need 3-4GHz when running on a single core ?
NO,- only a few need,- like Omnisphere or Diva.

Is that efficient ?
NO, it isn´t.
When a single synth plugin eats all my CPU power for breakfast and my computer costs 1500,- bucks, I can also buy a hardware synth, isn´t it ?
dawman wrote: AMD OTOH wants some ass.
I think they'll get it as Intel has nothing but glue and extra Watts...
Up to now I don´t know any DAW user working w/ an AMD Ryzen system.
You might be right and it would be good you were, but me personally, I´m unsure.

I only know, the more cache exists, the more watts it needs and heat increases !
And more CPU cycles probably need some more watts too and even it´s advertised different.

You also don´t believe your active speaker has it´s advertised 2.000 watts and buy it nonetheless.

The AMD stuff will have it´s flaws too.

:)

Bud
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by garyb » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:02 pm

no doubt, Bud.
i'm not "against" anything that works.

yep, maybe the new socket and chipsets will handle continous PCIe traffic well and not make spec through bursts of data. all the better as far as i'm concerned, but the latest fastest is still the latest fastest until the next promised advancement comes. it's funny, but i got the same amount of work done with a pentium4, the apps just weren't as pretty. well, actually streaming samplers have grown up a lot since the Gigasampler days because of the new processors and i realize that is what this is about.

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by Bud Weiser » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:34 am

garyb wrote: ... but the latest fastest is still the latest fastest until the next promised advancement comes.
true !
garyb wrote: it's funny, but i got the same amount of work done with a pentium4, the apps just weren't as pretty. well, actually streaming samplers have grown up a lot since the Gigasampler days because of the new processors and i realize that is what this is about.
And I´m also not against your remarks !
I´m probably the one working w/ the oldest computers as long as he can.
Until Q2/2016, XITE was connected to a Intel Pentium dual core rackmount.

Since I moved too end of march 2016 and don´t have my studio back up to now because of too small rooms (for the old gear),- I´m after a computer-solution "doing it all" incl. working w/ XITE-1,- and go away from using multiple computers.
XITE sounds too good and is a too expensive piece of gear for collecting dust,- so recognizing Z270 works is like x-mas for me.
I myself are probably fine w/ Z270 and i7-7700k or similar.

But up to now I understood Phead Reason is also running on slower dual-core laptops WHEN you set it´s CPU consumption to 80%+.
When you want more, it not urgently wants more GHz, but likes more cores.
I own Reason and I want to upgrade to the latest version and do the same w/ NI Komplete as also Studio One Pro.
Up to now I used Reason rewired to Studio One, used NI and other plugins all together w/ SCOPE 5.1 on a 32Bit machine.

I have no clue what will happen when it´s a 64BIt system and all updated/upgraded.

Will 4 cores be good enough then ?

I learned, when software developers update their stuff, the new versions eat all the available CPU cycles to make just only THEIR stuff better.
They don´t care for the other´s apps and plugins or for the user.
You cannot run more because of new hardware when the upgraded software wants it all.
You can only run more when you take the cash and do a larger build.

:)

Bud
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by next to nothing » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:24 am

If i was considering upgrading now, and Intel 6 cores was in my scope of price, I'd wait a bit and see how the AMD Thread ripper (16 cores / 32 threads) does for price and performance...

Regarding X299, I find this video informative and interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWFzWRoVNnE
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by dante » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:39 pm

Wow that Linus Tech Tip guy sounds quite knowledgeable a real eye opener the confusion in configs and I said I'd wait until Intel's reaction to AMD but the current reaction seems knee jerk stuff I certainly don't need. I JUST WANT CORES AND SPEED to run ReasonOmniSpireDivas but I am prepared to wait a year or two and follow in Jimmy's footsteps - since the success of the Z87/i7-4790 combo @96Khz he is my shepherd.

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by dawman » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:25 pm

Don't get me wrong, I love Intel.
But they haven't really given us much since Devils Canyon.
Sure, bigger multi core slower beasts, but those suckers need 140watts....

And core locked synths are Zebra2 HZ, due to the excessive features and Diva Filters.
Omnisphere is also locked.
This is why multi core CPUs work worse with such designs.
But these 2 synths are all I use.
Other synths I can demo, but always find they sizzle down like shitty bacon on a large live speaker array.
Sound like Alesis MIDI Verb vrs. a Model 7 Bricasti...

Hang in there guys, Z270 is nice but Ryzen 3 will be perfect for audio guys because AMD offers so many mission specific chipsets and CPUs.

Just good to know Z270 and Windows 10 are there if needed...

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by fraz » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:40 am

I've not looked at Ryzen 3 yet - But have looked at Ryzen 7 1700 & Ryzen 5 1600 - The Ryzen 5 1600 is 6 core and powerful multi-core - Ryzen 7 1700 even more so - Ryzen 5 1600 is £200 can be over clocked if need be [or not] - 1600 X only a little more expensive -

Ryzen 7 1700 can be overclocked to from 3 Ghz > 4 Ghz on good air cooler or AIO [closed loop cooler] like H100i - And be around as powerful as a standard 5960 X or not far off - When these CPU's work with audio interfaces properly it'll run the Reason program really well for around £300 - And there are PCI slots on motherboards as well - But would they work with Scope - If so this could be an answer for Dante !!! - From his earlier post

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by Bud Weiser » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:25 am

fraz wrote: ... When these CPU's work with audio interfaces properly it'll run the Reason program really well for around £300 - And there are PCI slots on motherboards as well - But would they work with Scope - If so this could be an answer for Dante !!! - From his earlier post


I´d find AMD Ryzen 1800X interesting for EUR 499,-,- but without the experience it´s very hard to decide for the right socket AM4 mainboard.
At the end of the day, it´s the chipset and not the processor alone which has to work flawlessly and efficient w/ audio-/MIDI interfaces and DSP units like S|C PCI-cards or XITE.

With Intel, we already know what works and what not and since we know Z270 works, X299 most likely will work too.
With AMD and related mobos we know nothing up to now, at least not in a combo w/ SCOPE gear.

£300 = EUR 340+ ...
Saving EUR 160,- when building a DAW machine, doesn´t make much sense for me when I have to invest endless time to find out what works and what not.
And before we talk about benchmarks, it has to work stable and cool in 1st place and w/ almost any application and plugin I used before successfully w/ Intel.

It´s all matter if one wants to test computer stuff,- or power it up and work w/ it.

That said, I myself I´m favourizing the Intel i7 7700k on a Z270 chipset board.
I´d build such thing, then find out if it´s enough for me or not.

Only WHEN someone urgently NEEDs a 6 or 8 core machine, he should try to build one now,- or better wait until others, pro DAW builders and software manufacturers included, have tested the hardware in depth for the audio department and for their apps and plugins.
And even when that has been done, I´m pretty sure none of the DAW builders tested w/ XITE or a discontinued Creamware or S|C PCI card.

:)

Bud
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by dawman » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:04 pm

I have no proof of this but X99 is quad RAM.
Don't know if that is a problem or not, but if X series chipsets don't work, I'd be careful to drop 1000 bucks on just a mobo/CPU combo and be wrong...

My 2cents

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by Marco » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:23 pm

With scope you get more and more to a convenient area of space, an outpost of the Earth Alliance, if you want to get faster with your PC and update to the latest system.

My Z87 is fast enough, I prefer to invest in more hardware to increase the potential of my pc.

But I have enough of all. I m just making music not configurations anymore.
Scope 7 user since 2017 and Scope user since 1998. :o

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by Bud Weiser » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:37 am

dawman wrote:I have no proof of this but X99 is quad RAM.
Don't know if that is a problem or not, but if X series chipsets don't work, I'd be careful to drop 1000 bucks on just a mobo/CPU combo and be wrong...

My 2cents
just a note:

ALL the server board chipsets incl. the former ones support quad channel ECC RAM,- p.ex. for the XEON processors,- and the socket 2011 mobos and chipsets on those mobos did as well.
IIRC even the old HP servers always recommended here for DSP PCI cards work w/ quad-channel ECC RAM.
Quad channel RAM is not the culprit, also not ECC.

IIRC, it was the specific design of the Z170 series chip which didn´t work for XITE.

So, not only a X-chipset didn´t work, a Z-chipset didn´t too

Now,- Z270 does,- YOU said ...
X99 didn´t work ... leaves the question if X299 works ...

Do you really think they now did it right for the consumer range of desktop motherboards and made the same mistake w/ the pro range of motherboards/chipset ?

But yes, spending lots of money for a test system is risky.
OTOH, most components of such system can be used in another build as well.
Have in mind it´s not the processor not working correctly w/ XITE, it´s just only the motherboard.
And when a motherboard doesn´t work just only w/ SCOPE/XITE, it will still work for any other purpose it is designed for and can be sold in like new condition then,- for some loss by nature.

The range of ASUS socket 2066 mobos starts at EUR 239,90 (incl. 19% VAT) NOW,- it will become cheaper.

Most socket 2066 boards come w/ 4 or 5 PCIe x16,- you don´t need that.

The ASUS board coming w/ 3x PCIe x16, 1 dedicated PCIex1 and Thunderbolt costs EUR 284,- (incl. 19% VAT).
https://www.alternate.de/ASUS/PRIME-X29 ... t/1359423?
Intel core i7-7800X 6-core costs EUR 414,- (incl 19% VAT)
https://www.alternate.de/Intel/Core-i7- ... t/1358947?

So,- we are far away from EUR 1.000,- incl. 19% VAT (or 1000 bucks) and in the US, prices for computer components are much cheaper than in germany.
But when someone really wants an Intel 6 or 8 core,- or dual processor systems and so on,- he will have to invest and check it out,- and it is now cheaper than it was before.

IMO, one has to do the same when going the AMD route,- no ?

Do we have seen builds here up to now,- new Intel x299, new AMD socket AM3+ or socket AM4 ?

No, we don´t,- it´s all too new.

:)

Bud
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by JoPo » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:52 am

I don't understand all everybody is talking about here... But as I'm going to get some money, I'm planning to upgrade again. So I hope you'll sum up ! :D
Apparently, it's worth to wait those new 6-8-10 or even 16 core, right ? :o Let's wait !
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by garyb » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:55 am

right now Z270 is newest and it works, and it's the best bang-for-the-buck.
6+ cores has some advantage for some apps, but it's a minimum of double the price and may or may not work.

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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by dawman » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:07 am

Bud, I am going for the AMD Ryzen 1500X quad with 16 mb Cache.
It's cheap, the mono is 90 bucks. CPU is 200.
I will see if that works.
If it does these huge cheap 8 core AMDs will be the way to go.
Here's the case that I will use.
If it doesn't work, I can always act like it's a present to one of my kids.
IMG_0859.JPG
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by dawman » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:52 am

Z97 NVMe scores are 5-10% faster on the Z97s still.
My guess is there's no stop at the PCH, they are direct to CPU.
Dont know why Intel changed the designs that ASRock took advantage of.

These are scores after an outdoor gig using these new Silverstone Thermal Pads that keep the M.2/NVMe drives from throttling from heat.
Even if they throttle theyre still faster than SSDs, but with the pads after hours of use outside in heat they are fast as greased lightning.
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Re: Is there any such Motherboard that ....

Post by Bud Weiser » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:08 am

dawman wrote:Bud, I am going for the AMD Ryzen 1500X quad with 16 mb Cache.
It's cheap, the mono is 90 bucks. CPU is 200.
I will see if that works.
I´ve read 2 tests in german, comparing to Intel i5 7400/ 7500 ´cause that´s the price range ...

For "single-threaded" software and older games, the Ryzen 5 1500X is slower than both the Intel i5.
So, Intel i7 is for sure MUCH faster !

Overclocking for the Ryzen 5 is also a 3-way route.
3.9Ghz boost w/ a single core, 3.7GHz w/ 2 cores in use, only 100MHz more (3.6GHz) with all 4 cores in use.

The architecture:
ALL Ryzen 5 base on a "zeppelin-die" w/ 2 4-core clusters (CCX).
For the 1500X AMD deactivated 2 cores per cluster instead deactivating 1 cluster (CCX).
That explains why the processor comes w/ 16MB L3 cache still ...
BUT,- because AMD decided for that 2+2 instead 4+0 (CCX) cluster solution, there´s still communication between those 2 CCX essential which slows down the traffic a bit.

1500X doesn´t come w/ internal GPU, so you will have to invest in a graphics card which relativates the low price.

For native quad-core w/ ZEN architecture you need the "Raven Ridge",- and than w/ integrated Polaris or Vega GPU ... IMO.

b.t.w.,- all the B350 chipset AM4 mobos come w/ only 1 M.2 slot.

:)

Bud
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