Scope 6 does not exist

[Bud Weiser]

To me the single most serious bug I know about in Scope is the buggy and unreliable cc-preset system.
...

This bug has been known for many years ...
...

Unless Scope 6 actually deals with this problem, I don't need Scope 6, but I do need this bug to be fixed ASAP.

THIS !!!!!

Thank You !

Bud

[hubird]

+1

[cortone]

Clearly, I am NOT communicating well. The ONLY part of the discussion that I have been trying to clarify is the size of the on-board DRAM chips. I was present when the discussions started, before XITE was released, and a for a long time before that. jksuperstar is probably correct, but I would like to see "Holger's documentation" to know for sure, rather than our collective memory of a discussion from 2008. Not that it matters beyond my own curiosity, because I won't be designing a device that uses it.

Beyond that, I am in full agreement, Bud. I am a member of the choir, preach away! I would love to see ALL of these issues addressed, because everybody has different needs. And compatibility with a 64-bit OS would be a nice treat. Even more for me, I would love to have re-sizable graphic surfaces, and zoomable project and modular windows (I don't have any reason to believe that was going to be a forthcoming feature, it's just part of my own dream for the environment). I had high hopes for V6, and can't disguise my disappointment that it was scrapped.

But as you've pointed out, I can make everything work, both PCI cards and XITE. I have no complaints, only wishes.

Sonic Core has violated a basic engineering tenet, "cost is a primary driver of design", and have produced a gem that is not fully realized. I admire them for that, very few have the balls. But they are suffering as a result, because the consumer can't get their heads around what Scope is, what it is worth, and then cough up the funds that would help make Sonic Core a viable company. We're the lucky ones who can.

Cory

[petal]

¨

Sonic Core has violated a basic engineering tenet, "cost is a primary driver of design", and have produced a gem that is not fully realized. I admire them for that, very few have the balls. But they are suffering as a result, because the consumer can't get their heads around what Scope is, what it is worth, and then cough up the funds that would help make Sonic Core a viable company. We're the lucky ones who can.

Cory

Wow - I couldn't have said it better myself!

Scope is so close, yet not quite there - It's crazy

[cortone]

Thanks Petal.

I'd go so far as to say that Scope is THERE. But it is primed for BEYOND. We're just having a hard time waiting for it, some more than others.

Cheers,
Cory

[garyb]

In effect you cannot trust that a reloaded project that use cc-automation will actually sound the same/work as when you saved it!
Which pretty much equals, no automation of fx: Filter cutoff and no serious integration with your hardware controllers and Scope is possible if you plan on using "saving and reloading" of a project.

it probably relates to specific devices and how they were made. i know that there is an issue recalling presets, i don't remember the exact device, or if all are affected.

as far as saving a project and having the ccs remain, the STM2448 does this for me all the time. i often automate mutes and auxes, sometimes also channel faders using ccs. when i save the project and reopen it minutes, days, weeks or months later, those ccs are still mapped properly.

[hubird]

Even more for me, I would love to have re-sizable graphic surfaces, and zoomable project and modular windows (I don't have any reason to believe that was going to be a forthcoming feature, it's just part of my own dream for the environment).

Funny, that's exactly one of those things I was thinking about, when it comes to a modern look.
Scope looks outdated, we agree about that I guess.
I've seen youtube clips showing that zoom function on a mixer, I think it was logic. Did look great and fast.
You'll have to compete with that interactive graphical level,
And also with the fancy tablet style, which is what kids grow up with.

If that's what Scope 6 is meant to start with I quit

[garyb]

then quit.

[hubird]

then a term

[tlaskows]

Sell me all your Xites for cheap!!! Give me a deal! No, actually, my 3 Pro cards are almost too much.

-Tom

[hubird]

I'm not even talking in my own interest, as I'm condemned to mac OS-9.2.2 on my already second MDD 'Quicksilver' Powermac, as was the name at the time.
It's the last one which allows enough space for a STDM cable.
OSX would be possible with Open Source, they said, but that would be another 3 years or so...if anyway.

Anyway, if nothing happens Scope will look outdated soon anyway (commercially that is).

[garyb]

Scope has never been for mass consumption.

it has always been for those who are very serious about audio, music production and/or synthesis. it's awesome for those people just as it is.

[hubird]

I'm afraid it's not, at least not for new candidates, but I agree you disagree

[garyb]

those who are really into audio understand it immediately.
those who want to get into audio pick it up as it goes.

there is so much that can be happening with Scope, that there is no cookie cutter, hand-holding way to use it. dilettantes will be dismayed as it's not a microwave oven. many people are not really interested in the many possibilities of Scope. these people are probably annoyed that they have to think. that can't be helped.

when i put together my first computer with a Pulsar1 and v1.1, i got Scope working immediately, first time. it was easy. the sequencer was more alien to me, but then i come from the real world. others have different experiences.

[dante]

there is so much that can be happening with Scope, that there is no cookie cutter, hand-holding way to use it.

I believe there could be. In Scope 6, S|C could create prepackaged projects. Once loaded, these projects have 'Save' disabled, the user can only 'save as' to develop them further, but can always go back to the read only preset projects that wont corrupt by sat/dsp overload crashes.

A guaranteed starting point if you will for common use audio... a 24 track Mixing project, a dedicated tracking project, a dedicated mastering project, certain multi-purpose projects. A synth project with a bundled Solaris Core with max-poly limit coded into each preset. Ive already done ground work on this, with some fast changing 'lite' presets that work on XITE-1D. If Solaris Core uses any WAV maybe, being single shot and not multilayered like virutal instruments, those small wav might fit into limited onboard DSP RAM.

Each of these projects would have optimal DSP pre-assigned.

Not saying this is a new idea - Scope has always had preset projects - but maybe its time to revist and make more relevant. Im sure there are multiple ways of presenting pre-assembled working environments to first time and veteran buyers alike that would just work. For the more adventurous, theres always 'save as'. These would just be packaging concerns, with bugger all expensive DSP programming required to achieve this.

Slogan would be - 'Scope 6 - a Scope Fanfare for the Common Man'

[Bud Weiser]

In Scope 6, S|C could create prepackaged projects. Once loaded, these projects have 'Save' disabled, the user can only 'save as' to develop them further, but can always go back to the read only preset projects that wont corrupt by sat/dsp overload crashes.

That´s o.k. for noobs IMO.
OTOH, it doesn´t prevent from SAT connection errors when trying "save as" with a new project.

It´s the modular concept making SCOPE complex while other business models base on as many presets as possible for work out of the box.
When someone wants/needs the modular concept, he should be prepared to learn IMO.

A guaranteed starting point if you will for common use audio... a 24 track Mixing project, a dedicated tracking project, a dedicated mastering project, certain multi-purpose projects.

Makes sense ...(but we still have that already,- no ?)

A synth project with a bundled Solaris Core with max-poly limit coded into each preset. Ive already done ground work on this, with some fast changing 'lite' presets that work on XITE-1D. If Solaris Core uses any WAV maybe, being single shot and not multilayered like virutal instruments, those small wav might fit into limited onboard DSP RAM.

You might dislike what I say now,- but I think fixing bugs of 3rd party stuff is not task of Sonic Core and/or users.
I like John and I always liked his synths, may these be hard- or software products and because these sound great,- but when John is unable fixing and optimizing his ZARG devices for SCOPE v5.1 and future higher versions, S|C should not advertise and sell ´em further, at least not for XITE machines.
That might not rule for all his plugins but these which definitely don´t run well.
Unfortunately, these are the big and best synths he designed, the small ones run.
It were his own words blaming the hardware because the complexity of his synths need much more communication channels to host domain and across chips because of complex modulation than any CW/ S|C DSP card or XITE can deliver.
So, that´s how it is and it can´t be fixed.

Now Solaris Core is a shrinked Solaris v5 and even for the shrinked synth there are special presets necessary, that´s PITA.

So, in future, what doesn´t run well (all manufacturers !) should be excluded and replaced by something really working and not requesting "workarounds" like "use 1 voice only" or such and even it´s a polysynth.

In fact, my experiences w/ the ZARG bundle sold as a "special" by S|C held me back buying more devices for XITE-1.
Since then, I´d only trust S|C devices coming w/ SCOPE for XITE and whatever future version.
I also thrust Sharc and the BCM stuff as well as any of the newer developers making evident their stuff is coded for usage w/ XITE.

According to XITE onboard SDRAM and small waveforms used by synths:

Yep, small WAV and all the wavetables used by Vectron, Vectron player and Lightwave could reside in onboard RAM until XITE will be switched off and once the synth is present in a project.
It should auto-upload all the ressources from harddrive into onboard RAM.
Now I wished it were non-volatile ...

O.T.:

I have 2 versions of Lightwave installed and I don´t know why.
They also look identical but one fileis named "Lightwave" and the other "Lightwave v5".
"Lightwave v5" you can download from ftp-server separately, so I guess "Lightwave" came w/ latest SCOPE/XITE installer,- but I´m not sure.

Which one is the more advanced and which one can go ?

Each of these projects would have optimal DSP pre-assigned.

Yes,- and that´s the easiest using fully working and optimized devices.

Bud

[petal]

In effect you cannot trust that a reloaded project that use cc-automation will actually sound the same/work as when you saved it!
Which pretty much equals, no automation of fx: Filter cutoff and no serious integration with your hardware controllers and Scope is possible if you plan on using "saving and reloading" of a project.

it probably relates to specific devices and how they were made. i know that there is an issue recalling presets, i don't remember the exact device, or if all are affected.

as far as saving a project and having the ccs remain, the STM2448 does this for me all the time. i often automate mutes and auxes, sometimes also channel faders using ccs. when i save the project and reopen it minutes, days, weeks or months later, those ccs are still mapped properly.

It may be that there are devices where you don't experience the cc-preset bug, but the cc-preset bug is far from only being isolated to a few odd devices. For example: All the major synths: Minimax, Prodessey, Profit 5, Proone etc. have the cc-preset bug.

I'd say that "total recall" of your project is one of the top 3 major ideas about the core concept of Scope. Sadly Scope does not support total recall when it comes to automation and controller integration:

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33529

The other two ideas are sound and routing, which is great and why I am still here, hoping that SCOPE has a brighter future.

[dante]

You might dislike what I say now,- but I think fixing bugs of 3rd party stuff is not task of Sonic Core and/or users.

S|C has in the past reworked and bundled 3rd party devices successfully. Its then part of Scope, not considered '3rd party' anymore once that happens.

A guaranteed starting point if you will for common use audio... a 24 track Mixing project, a dedicated tracking project, a dedicated mastering project, certain multi-purpose projects.

Makes sense ...(but we still have that already,- no ?)

From the PCI era I think (?) - if you know of any XITE-1 and also XITE-1D specific ones with the 'X' devices and manual DSP assignment already done - point me to them !

So, in future, what doesn´t run well (all manufacturers !) should be excluded and replaced by something really working and not requesting "workarounds" like "use 1 voice only" or such and even it´s a polysynth.

'1 voice' - I agree. But I never suggested 1 voice. The ones I made for Solaris / Solaris Core had 4 - 8 voice poly, maybe more on full XITE. All synths, Zarg or not, will crash at some point of raised poly. Predefined (or recommended) per patch limit doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.

My interpretation of GaryB's 'no cookie cutter' comment, is more about new users, introducing them into the fold. Does the fact that more complex stuff can break an initial 'bundled' project imply S|C shouldnt even try to make the product more intro/user friendly at all ?

Ive already advocated removing STS x64 - maybe other devices meet that same deprication criteria, but some of them maybe need just a bit of work in presets and limitations so they dont need to be ditched altogether. Its called 'not throwing the baby out with the bath water'.

Glad to see you picked up my idea for the onboard ram use

[Bud Weiser]

S|C has in the past reworked and bundled 3rd party devices successfully. Its then part of Scope, not considered '3rd party' anymore once that happens.

Developers of devices fix bugs or care about compatibility if they can, depending on how much interest and input they still have in regards of device developement for actual and upcoming S|C software and hardware products.

According to John Bowen Synth Design, the focus is the hardware Solaris synth where S|C is somewhat involved in too.
I doubt J.B. will update old ZARG products for XITE in future because it´s not doable for the big ZARG synths at all.

'1 voice' - I agree. But I never suggested 1 voice. The ones I made for Solaris / Solaris Core had 4 - 8 voice poly, maybe more on full XITE. All synths, Zarg or not, will crash at some point of raised poly. Predefined (or recommended) per patch limit doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.

I wasn´t talking about "Solaris Core".
It wasn´t bundled w/ any S|C device bundle at all and up to now you´re the one and only owner of that device I´m aware of.
Maybe I´m wrong and there are a few, but not many.

On my XITE-1, Solaris v5 NEVER worked 4-8 poly even I downloaded your banks and tried.
In fact I gave up and will never touch this synth again,- as well as Rotor EX and Quantum Wave.
RD Drum I don´t use anyway.

Does the fact that more complex stuff can break an initial 'bundled' project imply S|C shouldnt even try to make the product more intro/user friendly at all ?

When I got my XITE-1 and downloaded latest SCOPE for Win32Bit, there were some starter projects included.
I never used ´em up to now, tried to get out the most from XITE-1 by experimenting after reading posts about DSP optimization and manual DSP assignment here @PlanetZ.
That was the reason why I learned how XITE works technically.

It also really depends on what someone (or S|C) thinks about the target group of customers will be in future and for XITE hardware and SCOPE since v5.1.
I really doubt they will get those,- originally buying USB audio/midi interfaces, using Reaper or freeware hosts and native freeware plugins,- into the boat.
I also doubt DSP hardware is really "user friendly" in the sense of idiot proof !

And S|C XITE-1D as well as XITE-1 both will never become a mass product for the youngsters since in a mass, most youngsters are amateurs and rarely need DSP hardware today.
They go and buy computer hardware components in a shop, assemble DIY or buy a laptop, then buy a more or less cheapo audio/midi card or USB interface.

In opposite, SCOPE, PCI cards and XITE were and is for the pros from ground up and since Creamware existed.
Pros are probably not interested in testing gear and tinkering w/ maxing out DSP consumption on a XITE box.
In most cases, I think they´re done once they constructed their own mixing- and mastering projects and eventually use a handfull of SCOPE-synths they record after creating the patch needed and/or have their MIDItrack done, sometimes just only play because the part is simple enough.

IMO, the MIDI CC preset system is the most important part to be fixed/improved for any upcoming SCOPE versions, may it be SCOPE 5.2 or SCOPE 6.
It´s important for both, the producers as well as the gigging musicians.

When SCOPE/XITE worked reliable w/ MIDI, preset system and total recall and replaces more than a handfull of vintage synths as well as other outboard hardware at a sonic quality surpassing native VSTs w/ much lower latency and jitter and can be used mixing your additional hardware instrument live gear as well, this incl. FX and all in a 1 HU unit,- that would be very interesting for the live gigging crowd and relativate costs of XITE when comparing to ebay prices for used vintage gear or even prices for new and quality pro keyboard gear, which in most cases under the hood is DSP and not analog hardware too.
But as long total recall doesn´t work, usage is too cumbersome.
And a sampler/sample player incl. a starter library would be good in such configuration too.

Bud

[zerocrossing]

But they are suffering as a result, because the consumer can't get their heads around what Scope is, what it is worth, and then cough up the funds that would help make Sonic Core a viable company. We're the lucky ones who can.

Cory

Hi, I'm currently considering an XITE-1 system, and I can tell you that from an outsider's perspective, it's very kind of unclear what Scope is. I had to get a lot of help here, which was great, but I bet many people just look at the price and vague description and move on. Inversely, Native Instruments does an amazing job letting people know what Reaktor is does and sounds like. IMO, Sonic Core's biggest issue isn't it's hardware or software, but it's ability to communicate. There should be some basic tutorial videos on the main pages of all their products, software and hardware. There should be a lot of very high quality audio demos on each plug in. What you find on Youtube is very hit and miss, and even the good Sonic Core Soundcloud demos tell you nothing about what plug ins were being used to make the track.

Also, while Planet Z is a really nice forum (a nice user base is a big selling point for a product like this) I've seen basically zero presence on other forums like KVR or Gearslutz, which are just chock full o' people like me who are perfect potential owners.

That's why I'm offering my talents in marketing to Sonic Core for 3 months in exchange for an XITE-1 system.