Scope 6 does not exist

[jksuperstar]

There was documentation (text) from Holger on the matter at some point way back when, so it's not just rumor. Although it might as well be Myth now

If G.O.S.T. was around, he could answer well enough, he seemed to have good knowledge (and much communication with S|C) on these things. And always good vibes from Vienna...

[garyb]

there are lots of possible future expansion points in the XITE. Juergen designs that way.

[dante]

What could happen if SC don't have the capacity to fix stuff that doesn't work, come clean and simply let those products become legacy.

Drop vdat/STS with an honest statement to the effect that they are not in a position to deliver them fully working as they would like thier customers to have.

Sequencers could be dropped and maybe some arrangement with Mr GOST to have mattomat bundled stock w/ Scope 6. Give a shop certificate of $100 - $200 to all users upgrading from 5.1 also as a sweetener for functionality lost over the 64 bit introduction (eg WAV drivers- although hopefully those can be fixed rather than deprecated )

[garyb]

there's no secret about no 64bit STS.

[dante]

Yep. So take it out. At least out of the 64 bit installer.

[garyb]

yes, i would suppose that would end all of it. i'm not in charge of anything like that. the webshop description states this clearly, though.

there's no point in my saying anything to anyone about this this week. i will bring it up later.

i really think this all has more than run it's course. it's definitely a molehill, not a mountain.

[tlaskows]

Yeah, I'm not gonna cry about no Scope sampler. It would probably take way too much time to rewrite the code, so it just doesn't make any sense.

-Tom

[garyb]

at this time.

[tlaskows]

I'm upgrading my Yamaha EX5 with some 64MB of RAM and 16MB flash (there's a guy in the UK that still makes these for the EX5 for cheap). Hardware sampler baby! I'm not sure what I'm gonna sample. I think last time I sampled every note on my acoustic guitar and well, it sounded kind of like a guitar, but not really

Oh yeah, I'm waiting for a blower from Turkey (Yamaha no longer makes them) for the VL patches. We are gonna have so much fun!

Get some sleep, Gary. I know what time it is there

-Tom

[JoPo]

Rack Extensions yes are like VST.

Is there any vst adapter ? Prices are good !

And I've found this :
http://ddmf.eu/product.php?id=3
Very interesting ! Thanks, Dante !

[JoPo]

What could happen if SC don't have the capacity to fix stuff that doesn't work,

I don't know how many person are (or is ) working on Scope 6 to day but I'm sure they'll release a good Scope 6 version with a lot of new things or improvment. If they were a lot, we already had it, if they are few, they just need more time and they'll reach the same level later.

I'm also convinced that if a new, modern Scope 6 is released, much more people will buy SC hardware and products. Scope 6 would be a good way for one speak about SC/Xite/Scope on media. Each time a new product is released, one speak about it (see Xite revues in audio magazine). So Scope 6 can be only positive for our favorit audio company. But too much time between new releases is not very good in the way people consume items today ; it's just the way it is.

[Bud Weiser]

Rack Extensions yes are like VST.

Is there any vst adapter ? Prices are good !

And I've found this :
http://ddmf.eu/product.php?id=3
Very interesting ! Thanks, Dante !

Phead REs only work in Reason and no way in other VST applications.

Regardless of REs and when consider buying that ddmf plugin, you should also consider "Plogue Bidule" which looks similar but is a full standalone host also working as Rewire master as well as slave.
http://www.plogue.com/products/bidule/
Works also as VST plugin, but only for registered users after purchase !
$ 95.-
http://www.plogue.com/store/

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

Yep. So take it out. At least out of the 64 bit installer.

Well, discussing SCOPE 6 actually is more or less obsolete.
It doesn´t exist in the sense of a finished commercial product we can buy NOW.

With a sampler for small AKAI footprint, I´m fine w/ 32Bit SCOPE anyway.

Up to now and according to my humble knowledge, the only DAW urgently require a PC/Win 64Bit system is Phead Reason since version 8.x,- that´s why I didn´t upgrade at all.
For all Reason 8.x users working on 64bit systems, there´s Reason´s stereo sampling input to do realtime samples, then use it in Reason´s sample playback devices.

Everyone owning Phead ReCycle 1.7, which is the latest version supporting SCSI and owning a WinXP machine w/ adaptec SCSI card and ASPI drivers will be able importing AKAI samples from hardware sampler directly into ReCycle and make .rex files from, then use in Reason as well.

Anyway, at some point we all HAVE to go 64bit when usage of only one computer for everything is the demand and our old machines died w/o a chance for repair or replacement one day.

Time moves on and then we´ll see who´s left as a faithful SCOPE user and who´s not, depending on what comes from S|C in future, may that be bugfixes for existing 5.1 SCOPE versions, upgraded devices or full upgrade to SCOPE v6 incl. upgraded devices or new ones replacing old ones.

For me and in my age I only know there will come the day I want to make life simpler, probably give up composing, arranging and music production for just only performing live w/ a band of buddies and for fun again.
This will be in about 4 1/2 years,- the time I´ll sell all my recording gear and you´ll read it here in the sales and trades department then.

So, as long as my old computers don´t collapse, in principle I´m covered w/ all the gear I already own and I really doubt lack of 64bit will prevent from making good music,- if I ever find enough time for that at all in future and even chances selling music for good money became minimal since a long time anyway.

My rule was always, master the basics 1st, then comes the gear.



Bud

[cortone]

Let's not give up hope! First of all, I don't doubt that the DRAM chips are present in the system! I didn't intend to question that with my replies. The size of the chips is in question, and even that is really just an "academic" question. I'm curious about the miraculous engineering effort that has given us Scope and XITE, and what's inside the box.

It's disappointing to learn that V6 has been scrapped, but I don't doubt that work will continue. A V5.2 that addresses the few issues that we have would be great, and maybe a good intermediate goal. Even that is a chunk of work though, this stuff isn't easy. And very likely that has already been considered, and ruled out for valid engineering reasons.

Cheers
Cory

[tlaskows]

I am not sure I don't understand. Xite-1 cannot use the system RAM like the PCI cards do? I mean a sampler is not a reverb, it should be doable. Hmm. But then again, I'm not a professional.

-Tom

[garyb]

sure, if the device is programmed to use it.
STS samplers use system RAM. they were designed almost 20 years ago.

[cortone]

Tom,

XITE can and does use the system RAM, but through the PCIe interface, so it's a bandwidth hog for several applications including samplers and delays, and will impact overall performance. This is also likely a primary reason that some devices are not functional in 64-bit.

XITE was also designed with dedicated on-board DRAM for each "new" Sharc chip (12 total), as far as I understand, anyway. It's not clear exactly how much RAM is on-board (the general consensus is 32MBytes per chip, which is a lot in this application, but possibly more like 32MBits, still quite a lot). it has only been used by a small selection of devices, again, as far as I understand. It's one of the features that give users hope for some serious improvements from a new Scope SW release.

All my statements are subject to correction if SonicCore wants to chime in, or a developer with actual experience using the local RAM in a device. Or anybody really, because I'm just speculating too. ~8^)

Cheers,
Cory

[petal]

I don't really get why people are so concerned about the non-working STS-samplers i 64 bit mode. There are plenty of other good options and even a workaround: use 32-bit Scope.

To me the single most serious bug I know about in Scope is the buggy and unreliable cc-preset system, which is a much more serious show stopper than the non-functional sampler.

In effect you cannot trust that a reloaded project that use cc-automation will actually sound the same/work as when you saved it!
Which pretty much equals, no automation of fx: Filter cutoff and no serious integration with your hardware controllers and Scope is possible if you plan on using "saving and reloading" of a project.

This bug has been known for many years, way before Scope v5.1 ever came to existence - but for some reason not really talked about!?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Unless Scope 6 actually deals with this problem, I don't need Scope 6, but I do need this bug to be fixed ASAP.

[Bud Weiser]

... I don't doubt that the DRAM chips are present in the system!
... The size of the chips is in question, and even that is really just an "academic" question.

jksuperstar confirmed existence of RAM chips in XITE and mentioned "documentation from Holger way back" above,- so I´m pretty sure the "new" SHARC DSPs inside XITE theoretically can adress 32 megabytes each which results in 12x32= 384MB.
I never had a different info and when I mentioned in earlier threads/earlier posts, for sure it didn´t came out of the blue as also not was pure phantasy.

It's disappointing to learn that V6 has been scrapped, but I don't doubt that work will continue. A V5.2 that addresses the few issues that we have would be great, and maybe a good intermediate goal.

We should differentiate between XITE boxes as pieces of hardware and the SCOPE environment software as well as the devices.
Xite-1 owners got 2 good mic-pres, hiZ Ins and stereo analog I/Os w/ good converters, AES/EBU and ZLink I/Os and there´s the XTDM bus, not being in use today but it´s there for future expansions.
The latter tells me they had something in mind w/ the box and might not come up w/ anything comparable soon making XITE-1 obsolete and discontinued gear.
It´s the heart of the S|C DSP system and also SCOPE 5.1, as the environment you need, works in both 32 & 64Bit systems.
You also get a ton of DSP chips inside XITE-1, much more than you´ll find in any UAD rackmount/desktop device or on any of the UAD cards.

You can run XITE boxes w/ almost any if not every modern computer mobo and chipset out there which offers at least 1 PCIe slot.
Put a Z97 miniITX mobo in a ATX- "beauty case", add any Intel i5 /i7, 2 hardrives or 1 SSD and 1 HDD,- have XITE-1 w/ ventilation panel above, an additional AD/DA (for more I/O channels) and some powerconditioner/USV in a rack,- and the result is a cool mobile recording facility together w/ any DAW application good enough for tracking.
You can mix and master w/ it as well and the CPU overhead lets you run native plugins in addition.
All the ASIO s##t, the hardware audio and MIDI I/Os works flawlessly w/ SCOPE/XITE and most stock devices delivered work too.
You also get low latency and wehn not working w/ ASIO it´s almos NO latency.

I tell you... step sequencers and arpeggiators, I don´t need ´em at all, not on XITE and not on PCI cards.
These are tools for people who cannot play, as almost every native plugin and DAW software is out there.
Software developers NEED the market of non- playing but music-programming users.
I myself, I don´t use about 90% of any features and content coming w/ today´s DAW software apps and when a handfull of S|C SCOPE devices is not working propperly in 64Bit or at all, I´d use other devices like freeware VST step sequencer and/or arpeggiator.
They don´t make any sound, trigger only.

We discussed the samplers already.

No one in the audio world urgently needs 64Bit system, no audio signal dynamics needs that,- it´s all about the system RAM size and because Win and Mac OS moves on and try force you upgrading.

I´m still fine w/ XP 32Bit for audio and MIDI and music won´t become better w/ 64Bit as long as you don´t do big film scoring.
I don´t.

Yes, we have some minor bugs also in SCOPE 5.1 32Bit because devices come from former Creamware times, but point me to any VST/AU plugin out there being 100% bug free please.
Software is NEVER bug free.

For me the hardest issue is the actual existing MIDI preset system preventing assignment of all the MIDI CCs necessary for me in a project and in devices once, then forget and recall reliable every time I launch a project.
I tried the MIDI, controlling several SCOPE synths simultaneously w/ my Kurzweil PC3,- it works great, but next day SCOPE "forgot" most of the assignments I did the day before and saved.
It´s time consuming re-doing CC assignments in the studio but it´s doable, in a live gigging situation w/ setup under time pressure, it´s impossible.
Not to forget to mention you´d have to notate all you did day before to redo it next day.
That´s unacceptable IMO.
When S|C would be able to improve that, I´d be really happy because as a keyboardist I´d go out w/ the Xbox as a musical instrument and play.

I hope for that happens.

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

I am not sure I don't understand. Xite-1 cannot use the system RAM like the PCI cards do? I mean a sampler is not a reverb, it should be doable. Hmm. But then again, I'm not a professional.

-Tom

Both SCOPE XITE and SCOPE PCI use the computer system RAM,- but that also causes SAT connection error warnings when running out of SAT connections.
SAT connections is not only communication lanes between DSP chips inside XITE or on card/across cards, it´s also communication lanes between host-domain (= computer, thus RAM) and the DSP hardware.

When SCOPE devices used XITE onboard RAM, they´d free some SAT connections between DSP hardware and computer they formerly used.
As a result, you could load more devices on XITE which in most cases runs out of SAT connections far earlier than running out of DSP power.
On XITE, if you can max out DSPs or not, depends on the combination of devices being loaded in a project.

So, device design dependent usage of both, onboard RAM and system RAM, is the target.

A new sampler, user definable using onboard RAM for small samples, or when not enough onboard RAM available anymore using system RAM and for the large samples streams from disk,- all in all 3 modes,- that would be super cool and all the time-based-FX (chorus, flanger, doubler, delays & reverbs) would improve by using onboard RAM too.

Bud