Need help with loudness maximising chain

[irrelevance]

I have an embarrising wealth of quality scope plugs for the job but my lack of knowledge in the area always means when it comes to maximising my track loudness I reach for wavelab's peak master plugin and not a scope combination. I think the wavelab plug is a compressor limiter combination but it always helps squeeze out that extra bit of juice that I need and that I cannot seem to replicate in scope. Tried optimaster on it's own or in combination with psy q (with extreme minimal settings) and I kind of get something I like but again I'm just fiddling and not really appreciating how to finesse the sound the way I want it. Trouble is I'm lazy and the peak master plugin rewards me for turning my back on scope with 3 faders to get the job done!

[dante]

My chain is :

DAS MasterIT EQ => PsyQ => HPM Ambience => Multiband Compressor => DAS BrickMaster

The hints are :

1) Only use each processor minimally for what its best at.
2) Each processor adds gain which should not reach peak until the end, so BrickMaster is not doing all the work just a gentle final compression and catching of peaks.
3) Use this from one project to the next with minimal tweaks to reduce setup time.

[irrelevance]

That's an interesting chain thanks thanks for the hints dante. Any articles at scope rise on the subject?

[yayajohn]

Have you already tried the dNa packs?

[dante]

That's an interesting chain thanks thanks for the hints dante. Any articles at scope rise on the subject?

Not on Mastering per se - but on individual devices - yes - some of which discuss mastering

http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_20/cmp_mast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_21/seq_mast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_03/masterit.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_04/brikmast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_17/psy_mast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_23/vin_mast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_24/hpm_mast.htm

[irrelevance]

Have you already tried the dNa packs?

Yes I own their comp package ,master company, stereo comp and what I feed in imo isn't shit but what I come out with the other end isn't what I'm after, mix wise. On idividual channels and sub mixes I get a lot out of scope processing but but getting a good mix (again imo) to shine is hard.

That's an interesting chain thanks thanks for the hints dante. Any articles at scope rise on the subject?

Not on Mastering per se - but on individual devices - yes - some of which discuss mastering

http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_20/cmp_mast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_21/seq_mast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_03/masterit.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_04/brikmast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_17/psy_mast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_23/vin_mast.htm
http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_24/hpm_mast.htm

I'll get reading then! Thanks dude Also may I respectfully request an article on the subject using scope tools. Would be really appreciated

[hubird]

0. EQ? preferably not at this stage, unless all tracks suffer from the same deviance, which can be with life recordings in example.
But you know that
1. PsyQ
2 Optimaster
3. Vinco

1. PsyQ:
Process low and mid/high: about 35, Bass 35 or more, Mid/High to your needs.
Proces HiQ: 30 or more, Shaper max (or less, grabbing lower hi's)
Stereo: about 34, preferably not more as it's fatiguing on the longer run.

NB. PsyQ apparently is 'user level', which is good, as the Optimaster needs the overhead space to do the job required (as I see it).
So check the 'over' leds of in and out.


2. Optimaster: just use presets to start from, or use the learn function.
Use of presets gives guarantee of cohesion between all parameters, but you could make an A/B comparison of two mixes of both strategies, to get an idea of the plug's working.

You want it soft and smooth, or punchy, hot and 'radio', or even over the top, just choose the right preset (name): attack and release time values will be close then, just like the rest.

Having finished that, you might play with the threshold of each band, from the graphics even.
Watch the green leds of gain reduction for the band, and listen, you can hear what you're doing.
You can even do eq-ing this way, like pressing back the highs.

3. Vinco: the finishing touch for presence and that little extra but smooth pressure.
As known the Vinco is modelled after the classic 1176 Limiter, actually a compressor, which is said to be used also as master compressor.
So far I didn't check if it also colors the sound without applying compression, as the original thing is said to do, and I just bought the UAD plug
'Ratio button 2' on Vinco isn't original, but it's there

I love Vinco, I got used to it to have it in my mastering chain, as it's always a nice reward of that little extra while it looked you'd max'd out already, even if you had a softly compressed mix running with Vinco hardly working at a ratio of '2'.

If you wanne be sure, just do the mastering of an unmastered mix on both platforms, and do a real A/B comparison.
If it doesn't work for you then you know

[dante]

0. EQ? preferably not at this stage, unless all tracks suffer from the same deviance, which can be with life recordings in example.

MasterIT ( and other EQ) is not just about fixing deviances, it's also about surgical mid-side adjustment.

Also may I respectfully request an article on the subject using scope tools. Would be really appreciated

Sure. Any other input helps as well, don't want it to be just about my mastering chain

[irrelevance]

0. EQ? preferably not at this stage, unless all tracks suffer from the same deviance, which can be with life recordings in example.
But you know that
1. PsyQ
2 Optimaster
3. Vinco

1. PsyQ:
Process low and mid/high: about 35, Bass 35 or more, Mid/High to your needs.
Proces HiQ: 30 or more, Shaper max (or less, grabbing lower hi's)
Stereo: about 34, preferably not more as it's fatiguing on the longer run.

NB. PsyQ apparently is 'user level', which is good, as the Optimaster needs the overhead space to do the job required (as I see it).
So check the 'over' leds of in and out.


2. Optimaster: just use presets to start from, or use the learn function.
Use of presets gives guarantee of cohesion between all parameters, but you could make an A/B comparison of two mixes of both strategies, to get an idea of the plug's working.

You want it soft and smooth, or punchy, hot and 'radio', or even over the top, just choose the right preset (name): attack and release time values will be close then, just like the rest.

Having finished that, you might play with the threshold of each band, from the graphics even.
Watch the green leds of gain reduction for the band, and listen, you can hear what you're doing.
You can even do eq-ing this way, like pressing back the highs.

3. Vinco: the finishing touch for presence and that little extra but smooth pressure.
As known the Vinco is modelled after the classic 1176 Limiter, actually a compressor, which is said to be used also as master compressor.
So far I didn't check if it also colors the sound without applying compression, as the original thing is said to do, and I just bought the UAD plug
'Ratio button 2' on Vinco isn't original, but it's there

I love Vinco, I got used to it to have it in my mastering chain, as it's always a nice reward of that little extra while it looked you'd max'd out already, even if you had a softly compressed mix running with Vinco hardly working at a ratio of '2'.

If you wanne be sure, just do the mastering of an unmastered mix on both platforms, and do a real A/B comparison.
If it doesn't work for you then you know

RE Optimaster: Always thought I should avoid normalization so do you have this switched on in your chain?

I find psy q adds something that initially sounds good but on repeated a/bing overall sounds worse than the originals (maybe fatiguing as I do initially like what it does to top end) so I've been trying to pin down optimaster to hopefully simplify things so I don't turn the mix to mush. I like the idea of vinco at the end of the chain. I always figured it might be too much after multiband comp but if it works!

So dante/hubird does yor chain cover a range of sonic material or is it more specific to particular genre/styles. Would it be a case of changing presets in this chain to cover stylistic changes or? I like the idea of saving a general mastering project that can handle most if not all duties without lots of fiddling. Already got the cake why not eat it too right

[hubird]

The chain is given, but the music style and/or the supposed playing medium rule

Dante had great tips, agree dto all of them.
Just thought I let you know I use Scope plug-ins which are common to each these days.
For me it's a perfect combo

[dante]

So dante/hubird does yor chain cover a range of sonic material or is it more specific to particular genre/styles. Would it be a case of changing presets in this chain to cover stylistic changes or? I like the idea of saving a general mastering project that can handle most if not all duties without lots of fiddling. Already got the cake why not eat it too right

That's exactly what I do - I have a Scope XITE-1D mastering project @96KHz that just has mastering chain and little else (except maybe a Zarg synth) - copy it to next project, tweak a little - it evolves a bit as time goes on, but doesn't change much from genre to genre.

All mixing done natively in Reason feeding the SLL mix to Scope for Mastering.

[jhulk]

watch your levels going in maximum mix level before mastering should be about -6db this then gives you 5.97db room for the mastering section

if you go in to hot then it will limit heavily and you will hear rough compression where things like drums get limited to much
the best tools are your ears also set it to mono aswell to check for phase cancellation as any inverted sounds in opposite channel will cancel each other out and when set to mono you really can hear this

we use a separate output reference speaker amp which has a mono switch for this really helps as listening on consumer speakers as well as studio moniters helps with the mastering as your trying to get a good overall mix that sounds good on all systems

[dante]

Good tips. I also agree it's all too easy to overcook the highs with PSYQ and didn't know it until I one day wore earbuds with higher freq response.

The upside of that was - well at least my ears could still hear the diff

[jhulk]

when on tape yo uses to only get around 15k max top frequency response

so most eq used to have sweet spots around 10k

i still try to and do my mixes with max of 16k frequency range keeps out all the top end harshness which can really fatigue your ears

vocals around 5k this frequency range you really need to look out for as the t,s s sibilance can really show up worse in the mastering

so always sort this out with eq in the channel before mix down as if you dont when you master it can drive it making it more noticeable

[dante]

Yes same with hi-hats.

I just found this old article I had forgotten about on mastering :

http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_02/mastering.htm

But yes it's time to do an update - include this info as well as the old article lacks a bit of depth.

[irrelevance]

Yes same with hi-hats.

I just found this old article I had forgotten about on mastering :

http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_02/mastering.htm

But yes it's time to do an update - include this info as well as the old article lacks a bit of depth.

Been over the optimaster and psy q manuals again will check this out also thanks.

I'm still not getting close to the kind of maximization I want, theres more headroom to use and room for squeeze but raising gain in the processors just leads to lots of overs with the dynamics through the last stage whether that is optimaster limiter(single chain) or SC limiter or dnA stereo comp in brickwall mode at the end of multiple device chain(no idea how to set the comp settings beyond analog modus to get a specific limit with the DnA stereo comp). Possibly need to set faster compression in some of the bands of multiband? Again with the wavelab peak maximimizer if I specify a limit nothing goes beyond that limit which is why I tend to give in and go with that

[dante]

Cant say Ive had any problem getting fuller maximisation, say with optimaster. But I dont use optimaster for that reason - it maximizes too much for my liking.

Theres another page here : http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_18/mix_mast.htm

Under 'Mastering tips' a bit more of what other Scope users use - the link to Bob Katz is dead (Ill have to fix it) - but here is a review of his 'Mastering Audio' - might be a good reference :

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct03/a ... obkatz.htm and a reference to his K-Stereo processor, which I think Peter HPM has covered in one of his freebies http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php ... t=Ambience

[irrelevance]

when on tape yo uses to only get around 15k max top frequency response

so most eq used to have sweet spots around 10k

i still try to and do my mixes with max of 16k frequency range keeps out all the top end harshness which can really fatigue your ears

vocals around 5k this frequency range you really need to look out for as the t,s s sibilance can really show up worse in the mastering

so always sort this out with eq in the channel before mix down as if you dont when you master it can drive it making it more noticeable

The the top freq band (band8) of the eq8 in ableton live when enabled auto cuts to 15k I guess that's some mimicking this tape phenomenon.

[irrelevance]

I think overall I'm most happy with the sound I get from using only vinco or dna stereo comp across the mix but because I like my snares standing out and dynamic but i get troublesome transients when I use either of these on thier own. When I go back to the mix to pull down the snares it's not the loudness so much but maybe the crack of the transient just makes the meters go wild

The comp on the channel is attacking as fast as possible I think so might have to look at different comp transient designer .

I got this from DnA website regarding the analog modus function on the compressors

When you enable the analog modus the Clip-LED could indicate a sort of "softclip" action.(depending on the circuits) The plugin itself will not overload. With analog modus enabled the signal will be not higher than around -0,3dBFs.

So this at least means I must be mistaken and not been hitting over.

In any case having a listen back today and the track sounds a lot better gets good chest shaking bass, doesn't fatigue and I'm happy with instrument separation but I do need to turn it up to get it to similar loudness of other tracks.

[borg]

just some things to try out, and some a bit of the obvious:

fix it in the mix first (lo cuts on everything that doesn't need it, even on things you wouldn't expect, like cymbals/hats, maybe change eq/comp order in chain, ...)

then in the masterchain, make a chain of compressors that work gradually, rather than one compressor/limiter working harder. Put the fastest compressor first to catch the peaks (high ratio), the next compressors/limiters should have lower ratio and gain reduction (like if you used one compressor with GR of 6dB, try it with four with GR of 1,5dB.
If your using M/S eq, try cutting some of the bass on the sides, to focus the bass in the centre.
I love PsyQ, but use it very mildly, mostly leaving the high eq processing off, only a bit of mid/hi processing, the bass more (to taste), turn down the stereo knob, add compression to taste.

I remember from my old creamware days, I used the Sonic Timeworks mastercompressor a lot, which to my novice ears sounded wow... loud. Now I know a bit more, I need to have a new listen, but some years ago, with all the CW to SlC transition woes, Ralf Bach leaving (Gary, you do a hell of a job too, man!) and a flow of new devices, the Sonic Timeworks bundle has been forgotten, and I seriously doubt I can get it to register to any of the cards/Xite, should I find the keys. So many changes of hardware through the years...