Is Xite right for me?

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niversen
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Is Xite right for me?

Post by niversen »

I am a composer (orchestral/film style) and producer. I have a Solaris hardware synth on order, and am quite impressed with the sound samples from Solaris/Xite synths. Reading the forum, it seems there are many limitations/caveats, and I'm not sure how easily this will integrate.

1. Ability to use as a VST inside Vienna Ensemble Pro. I was going to put this as a "box of synths" inside a Vienna Ensemble Pro instance. I was hoping that this would let me use a bunch of great, DSP synths that I could load up without concern for CPU cycles. This would be with Cubase 7 64 bit, but that isn't super relevant if it is actually hosted inside VEP (I can make a 32-bit VEP instance if needed). This way, it could always be part of my template. I get the impression that VST is kind of flaky, or only works 32 bit. If stable as a VST, VEP will host it as a 32 bit thing, and I can still run my DAW 64 bit. Does anyone do this?

2. Can I load this thing up with lots of synths? Like 8-16 instances of various stuff? definitely several Solaris instances, a modular or two, etc.

3. I see a lot of posts about limited polyphony of 4,5, or 7 notes. Is that really true? Shouldn't be a big issue, but just curious as to why? Shouldn't the DSPs yield lots of polyphony? Is this related to the posts I see about things "optimized for Scope 5" vs not optimized? How do I know which synths will be "optimized"?

4. Should I be thinking of this as external hardware? Send it 16 ch. of MIDI on a physical MIDI port, then pipe the audio back into tracks via ASIO or even ADAT? Is that more stable?

5. I see posts that seem to indicate that some things "recall" better than others. Can I have some configuration auto-load, including all instruments, effects, program settings within plugins, etc? or would I have to open up control panels and reload everything including patches to get going every time? Ideally, I would want my "box of synths" to be able to auto-load a standard template and then use program change messages to change patches, etc.

Thanks in advance for any assistance! This is clearly a very powerful and great sounding device, but it is not clear how well it integrates and how easy it is to use when it is part of a setup rather than the "whole setup".
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Sounddesigner
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by Sounddesigner »

stardust wrote:Hi niversen, nice to see you on Solaris HW which is really an extraordinary masterpiece in constant care by John.

With respect to XITE we shortly pay a tribute to the attitude of some members in this forum and highlight its leadership and excellence in general and particular in order to massage their owner's pride and avoid allegation of treason. ;)

Back to your call for information:
at 1)
VST is a pain. Most use DAW with external device I/O via ASIO and Midi control channels. A deeper integration is simply not implemented properly while it would have been possible.
32bit vs 64 bit is not an issue in a way that the support both OS versions have bugs and flaws.
VSTIM mode in scope 5.1 in some cases loose key registration with every launch etc.
Be aware that some devices will not work as VST while others like e.g. DAS and GHOST ones are running very nicely.
Overall it works but it is tedious and you have to build expert knowledge to keep your gear running in VST inside a VST host and you have to accept and work around severe shortcomings like inaccessible and faulty behavior of VST parameter control and automation. SC has almost stopped to streamline VST host/DAW integration for several releases.
at 2)
You can. With a lot of manual (mouse click allegretto) load balancing and low polyphony.
In case you then increase voices per instance you have to be very careful changing presets. Re-balancing
very often does not lead to a workable result and the behavior is not linear. SC has not spend efforts on this from a workflow and automation point.
at 3)
It is true. It is not a problem as long as you are not composing complex arrangements with several chords on a particular instance of a synth. It is a problem when you have presets with long releases and you want to play them 2 handed with not bounced (or frozen) DAW tracks in background. So it depends also on the workflow you are used to. The reasons have never been properly communicated. The speculation is floating in several areas: immature load balancing implementation, principle impossibility to handle the degrees of freedom inside scope concept with universal balancing and optimization algorithms and also the part of the 'not optimized' DSP assignment of complex instruments developed on the former PCI cards and their DSP balancing and internal latency optimization (same DSP, same card but other DSP, other card's DSP) .
SC has not spend effort to complete this.
at 4)
Yes that's the current leading edge folklore on planet Z. Usually you will be cornered to see it as a sound engineer issue rather than a lack of XITE and Scope maturity.
Be aware that you as a composer use XITE not as a recording and effect box alone which is typically argumented as smoothly implemented. As arranger composer and producer you need DAW integration, automation and recall which is not in the minds of the XITE fanboys.
And of course the friendly advise that it is your user problem if you were overestimating scope VST integration from promises at sales.
at 5) No. Like with load balancing the idea of a "total recall" in a project is not available. Each synth and some synths have even several prests to be saved. the overall container called project saves some settings (Midi, voices, DSPs, presets etc) but for sure not all in a controlled manner.
Again not completed and even never committed by SC as a target for scope and XITE.

There are still some major bugs introduced into 5.x which haven't been tackled for months (if not years) like the famous sequencer bug that affects Modular but also any other synths using the basic sequencer scope module which is defective and not fixed.

So overall the level of VST integration is weak, shaky but workable.
'Total recall' is not available and the degree of 'totality' is not even conceptual consistent.
Load balancing and limitation of polyphony are related to each other. You have to use your user brains to effectvely exploit your XITE DSP power.
You also have to spend the effort to maintain your XITE setup like you do with your analog synths.
This is probably the best way to look at it.
XITE is a capable raw diamond and the instrument shines in the hand of the Maestro. ;-)

I hope this helps. The jar is half full. And be aware that many people here have a very emotional and irrational relation to their XITE.
So the principle of hope dominates the absence of facts by the knowledgable person in SC if, when and how this situation will change beyond the 'no time, no resources, be glad that you have what you have' shouts.

It is right for you if you want to intensively pamper it to make it shine for you despite its flaws.

cheers stardust




Stardust,

Must you take a jab at other forum members every chance you get? The topic is about XITE-1, can you simply answer the questions without bringing warfare into the thread or do you just live for war? A pretty sad life is to take petty jabs on a forum every chance you get. I only hope the moderator comes to see this one day. You give nothing but back-handed compliments to SonicCore with some secret agenda to make them look as bad as you possibly can while masquerading as some noble user trying to help. Such games really are childish and one would have thought you would've grown up by now. The fact that i'm combating your post is evidence of what you tend to bring to a topic- which is inflamatory comments/ warfare. Now there may be several posts of attacks rather than answering the OP's questions because of you. You can't simply answer a question without taking a cheap shot at other forum members who said nothing to you and had nothing to do with the topic, that makes you the true villan here. Hopefully newcommers can see threw you when reading your posts and not be fooled. Having a hidden agenda against a company that has done no wrong to you is twisted and low, as well as surrepticious trolling on other forum members or even fanboys. Such reveals your shortcommings and show a person miserable with no life.

To the OP: Xite-1 should be seen and used as external hardware rather than VST plugins. If used in SCOPE Mode you'll be fine. Some synths are not optimized for XITE but are still usable just have to keep voices low, and some synths are optimized. You should be able to get the number of synths you mentioned and more. The claim of Sonic Core neglecting anything is absurd since they are working on SCOPE 6, Parseq, and SDK 6 to answer many of the problems and do what they can. Those three things are all sophisticated software and need time to develop. Keep in mind XITE-1 is a extremely sophisticated sound-module/Mixing-enviroment/developing-enviroment/etc thus development will naturally take time, there is nothing else like it on the market when you go look in the synths/effects/interfaces section of your music store. Nothing has its depth, completeness, convenience and versatility in hardware form that i'm aware of. XITE-1 is great 'as is' prior to upcomming releases with no show-stoppers if you don't mind SCOPE Mode wich is a enviroment outside your DAW that you route to and from. VSTI Mode can be used to a extent but also can be problematic. Stardust's post had a lot of truth to it but with a few twists wich is how clever-trolls operate.


EDTED
Last edited by Sounddesigner on Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:11 pm, edited 12 times in total.
niversen
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by niversen »

Thank you both for your replies - it is clearly a system that incites a lot of passion.
djmicron
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by djmicron »

you can use xtc mode for integrating as vst, but i don't suggest you to use scope this way as it isn't supported and it's not maintained by sonic core.
The best way to use the xite is over the scope environment in real time and you can use it together with your vienna host on the same pc or as standalone machine.
The way scope communicates with the host is over audio and over midi, real time only like real hardware(as stardust ironically say).
If you are used to work the most with sample libraries, then scope is not the right choice for you, it is more oriented to synths programmers and modular enthusiasts, but it is also good for the quality of the audio interface and for mixing(very good sound separation on multiple mixed streams) efx etc..
The most of hi-end synths are optimized and it's not difficult to have 10 voices with the minimax or the pro5, or the protone or the prodyssey and with most of the others, but the solaris can be very dsp hungry, it is more versatile than the hardware version, but this versatility can push it to the dsp limit.
I can use 10 voices of solaris with an optimized version i'm working on using multiple instances instead of one with high poly.
The recall of settings is not a problem, but there are some devices that doesn't recall settings the right way such as the stm 2448 x mixer(this is why i use the older version) and to clarify things, on scope you recall the settings at project level(everything inside the project) and at preset level (per device settings).
I have a friend working as film/tv commercials composer and he doesn't like to work the modular way and doesn't like to program synthesizers, he just open up sample based libraries(vienna ecc.) and the only "synths" he open are nexus vst and omnisphere vst, so he is not the right customer for scope/xite.
I'm optimizing most of the devices with the scope sdk and i can reach almost the dsp limit on the Xite-1 and i can recall it and until now, sonic core doesn't work on fixing dsp issues and some bugs on some devices, but i fixed most of them by using the scope sdk.
I don't work for sonic core, i use scope pci cards since 1998 and i'm on the xite-1 too and stardust is right, sonic core support on fixing bugs is inexistent and even communication is often not possible for the most of people asking for something different than activation keys, but at least with the sdk is possible to fix some wrong devices behaviors and it's also easy to develop your own devices.
Also the vaporware announcement of openscope 6 has not helped sonic core to gain people's trust.
The best suggestion i can give to you, is to find some xite owner and try it.
On my side, i use scope for the flexibility, for the quality of sound and for the ability to create my own things, modular circuits, synthesizers, custom effects, routing and all with top notch sound quality.
Using my optimized version, you can reach 60 voices of polyphony with the minimax, but i'd use scope in the same way as i would do with the real synths, first think, then create the patch and play it.
Eanna
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by Eanna »

I echo Sounddesigner's comments.

I'm not a professional, I'm not on Xite (instead have two PCI cards), but for me, as a music-making resource, Scope is second to none. Nothing comes close.

I never bothered with VST mode, because I'm comfortable with handling external synths and effects in my DAW.

What makes my experience of Scope pretty special is that it can act as a Hub for my DAW - handling all I/O (n-channel ASIO, n-channel Midi, A/D and D/A), its mixers, effects and quality processors being the frontend desk for my external bits, its synths and Modular breathing a quality and depth of sound that no native resource can singly bring. Or, it can act simply as an outboard highly-multitimbral synth - Midi in, Audio out - routed to the SPDIF I/O of my handy-dandy USB audio interface. In other words, I can choose to use it in a way that suits me.

Scope is open-ended. This means your workflow can most-likely be accommodated.
Long-standing users here on Planetz find something new every day - things that they willingly share with this community.
If you are reasonably dilligent about saving the state of your scope project (devices and the project), you should have no issues with recall.
Scope6 promises to fulfil many existing wishlists, fix some existing bugs, and augment its integration with a modern music-making setup with support for cutting-edge technologies such as Copperlan and OSC.
And the variety of existing quality free devices for the platform is quite breathtaking, spanning nearly 15 years, and soon to be much more once the Scope6 platform and SDK is released......

There are many upstanding members here that will help to make your passage to using Scope successfully a smooth one.

If you wish to get a taste for some of the topics covered in Planetz, get a handle on some specific devices, and enjoy a good read, I recommend you check Planetz-member Dante's great Scope magazine site, ScopeRise:
http://www.hitfoundry.com/archives/
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...
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dante
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by dante »

Theres also a topic based index here :

http://www.hitfoundry.com/scope

Instead of just debate, consider the end result. I am also not a professional but a hobby composer. Instrumentally, I was able to produce this 10+ minute semi-orchestral piece https://soundcloud.com/hitfoundry/movin ... s-overture using XITE-1D with Cubase, Reason and Kontakt with the native stuff doing most of the instrumental and XITE doing the recording (guitar), some synth and all the mixing and mastering.

It's basically a 32 track recording with some of those tracks submixes of 10 and 30 note polyphonic orchestral sections which were home brewed in Reason (no EWQL etc libraries used here).

this was done @ 24 bit 48Khz with the XITE-1D which has only a fraction of the power of full XITE-1. The workstation itself is a 5 year old stock motherboard & CPU with 8GB RAM.

Given this humble semi-pro environment, I'm sure a larger arrangement could easily be achieved with a more modern workstation and full XITE-1, and at 96Khz if required.
dawman
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by dawman »

Well congradulations about Solaris.
Solaris and the XITE-1 with an 18GB Orchestral and Acoustic template is what I use.

I agree that VSTim mode is not nearly as much fun as using all DSP fx, mixing and synths, leaving the PC/Mac for scripting and even adding an Omnisphere.
I have Hollywood Strings, LASS and many other larger instruments, and just hearing those mixed in Scope will convince you of all you need to know.
I also prefer running ASIO Duplexxed @ 48k/64 samples/1.3msec.

Solaris into the XITE-1 is just breathtaking. The 96k internal processing of Solaris makes it powerful and pristine.
But running the digital I/O's into the XITE-1s AES/EBU I/Os really adds the sound quality live that cannot be achieved using Native. I tried, trust me I would have loved to save the 2k and get more Orchestral toys, but the sound quality difference was worth the cash.

You can hear Solaris and the XITE-1 in the link below. Wav and mp3 sound OK, but on nice monitors or 1000 watt MidField cabs that I use, it's as though the Olympians have landed.
Liquid EDGE
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by Liquid EDGE »

The best way to use scope is if it's external hardware. Vsti/xtc mode is rubbish and limited in my opinion.

The scope system has been around for a long time.
Originally made for the pci dsp audio card architecture.
There has always been minor bugs.
Always best to save presets for each instrument etc just incase the project doesn't re load perfectly.

Right. I have xite-1

Ok. The scope software has been tweaked/re done to work on brand new xite hardware.

Ok so 3 main problems is this.
1.The modular sequencer modules and step sequencers on synths like solaris and sb404 do not work. (but hey, who cares, we got Mattomat which works flawlessly and was made from the ground up for xite and latest scope)
2. Midi cc assignment is not saved well in project (mixers) so save a midi cc preset for mixers and re call after project load.
2. Be careful with polyphony on synths.

But ofcourse xite can load up more instances of all that scope has to offer than the pci cards could.

Now if you can deal with these 3 main bugs that got introduced on xite hardware (due to porting over software originally designed 12 years ago on different hardware)
Then you will be happy. The routing, sound quality and just immense choice of tools, synths, fx, mixing, mastering and set up possibilities is fantastic.

Also those main bugs I talk of are being worked on and sc say they should be fixed in the next release of scope.

Scope xite-1 is like an f1 car. Tuned correctly it's unbelievable but used without understanding your just going to explode or crash.
Fluxpod
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by Fluxpod »

niversen wrote:I am a composer (orchestral/film style) and producer. I have a Solaris hardware synth on order, and am quite impressed with the sound samples from Solaris/Xite synths. Reading the forum, it seems there are many limitations/caveats, and I'm not sure how easily this will integrate.

1. Ability to use as a VST inside Vienna Ensemble Pro. I was going to put this as a "box of synths" inside a Vienna Ensemble Pro instance. I was hoping that this would let me use a bunch of great, DSP synths that I could load up without concern for CPU cycles. This would be with Cubase 7 64 bit, but that isn't super relevant if it is actually hosted inside VEP (I can make a 32-bit VEP instance if needed). This way, it could always be part of my template. I get the impression that VST is kind of flaky, or only works 32 bit. If stable as a VST, VEP will host it as a 32 bit thing, and I can still run my DAW 64 bit. Does anyone do this?

2. Can I load this thing up with lots of synths? Like 8-16 instances of various stuff? definitely several Solaris instances, a modular or two, etc.

3. I see a lot of posts about limited polyphony of 4,5, or 7 notes. Is that really true? Shouldn't be a big issue, but just curious as to why? Shouldn't the DSPs yield lots of polyphony? Is this related to the posts I see about things "optimized for Scope 5" vs not optimized? How do I know which synths will be "optimized"?

4. Should I be thinking of this as external hardware? Send it 16 ch. of MIDI on a physical MIDI port, then pipe the audio back into tracks via ASIO or even ADAT? Is that more stable?

5. I see posts that seem to indicate that some things "recall" better than others. Can I have some configuration auto-load, including all instruments, effects, program settings within plugins, etc? or would I have to open up control panels and reload everything including patches to get going every time? Ideally, I would want my "box of synths" to be able to auto-load a standard template and then use program change messages to change patches, etc.

Thanks in advance for any assistance! This is clearly a very powerful and great sounding device, but it is not clear how well it integrates and how easy it is to use when it is part of a setup rather than the "whole setup".
For your setup-workflow i wouldnt buy it.
Stardust makes some good points.
Also,development is grinding slow and bugs like the sequencers not working have been in there for years.
The quality of the synths especially the john bowen synths is fantastic but limited as they are not optimised.
Recall and automation also isnt that good for a setup where such things are needed.
You could buy a used card and try it out but be aware of the points being made here please.

It works but its bumpy for what you want to do.
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dante
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by dante »

Question is : What would you be missing out on if you didn't buy it because it didn't fit your current workflow.

Is your current workflow / integration vision limiting the potential you could otherwise get out of the raw power XITE has to offer ?

It is true that the current Scope 5.1 software is not fully optimised for XITE. But to me, that's a glass half full, not a glass half empty. A great product for which room for improvement still exists within the same hardware - what you hear now can still go further.
dawman
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by dawman »

I'd relax as time is on your side.
Witness the build and sound qualtiy that you see with Soniccores' DSP designs in Solaris.
Once you see the quality of work they are currently occupied with, go and demo an XITE-1. The manager at GC here can't get headquarters to stock such a specialty item but they will special order it and give the customer a 30 day demo policy.

But the guys are right above, all of them.

VSTiM is as reliable as Gigastudio trying to host VSTs. It was a noble effort to expand the capabilites, but at the end of the day, Scope is better suited to replace VST FXs, synths and mixing so a modern CPU can concentrate on scripting or great VSTi synths like Omnisphere.

And for the tweakers and DIY guys there is no equivalent to Modular which in itself can do anything you can imagine. The dedication of Scope SDK/DIY guys here was a huge seller for me when I bought cards 8 years ago, and as you can see the development there is ongoing and incredible.

See you over at JBowens' forum. The guys there are quite similar to the XITE-1 owners here as they actually own and use the gear, so they tend to get XITE'd.
Those who don't own a Solaris or XITE-1 have good reasons not to use them, usually based on workflow and costs, rather than audio supremacy.
Liquid EDGE
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by Liquid EDGE »

Just to chip in again.

The question of is xite right for me?

I think scope xite is right for everyone as its such a user definable thing. It's a fully fledged studio in a box with an abundance of tools, in and out options for audio and midi, synths, fx, mastering, mixing etc etc etc. Everything inside the computer and outside the computer can be seamlessly integrated and routed inside and outside the computer all at basically zero latency.

If you want xite set up as a synth box. Just set up a default project with audio ins and outs modules be it asio or wav or both at the same time) midi ins and outs modules and a mixer. (once audio and midi modules are set up for the first time after reboot these all show up in Cubase/daw of choice in their respective drop down lists).

Have your daw audio set up to go to a few channels of the scope mixer (via asio) and the scope synths you add on the fly and route to the mixer and ofcourse control via midi from your daw.

You can mix all your stuff inside your daw and send to a stereo channel on a mixer in scope while the scope synths are added to and mixed in the scope mixer. then record your "final mix" from the stereo out of the scope mixer. The choice is yours. You can start to mix more and more in scope, routing each audio channel from the daw to individual channels on the mixer in scope. If you wanted you could have all the stuff in scope routed into your daw for mixdown.

Maybe have a look at this video I did touching on how I use the scope xite-1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwFoMKIiI5w

(for some reason the video is stretched a bit, not that it was like that when I first uploaded, youtube must of done something odd recently)

and to go on about xtc/vsti mode. Scope was around before uad.... when uad turned up with their vst dsp powered synth and fx cards, sonic core (then creamware) did a quick reaction of adding vst intergration mode (xtc) which enabled atleast the stock synths and fx to be seen inside your daw. but because scope is such a complicated beast you miss out on a hell of a lot and not all synths and fx support this mode (it's especialy hit and miss with 3rd party and free developed stuff). anyhows. is it really that hard to set up audio ins and outs and a midi channel as if you are using external hardware?

For me scope xite-1 is the center of the studio with everything else plugged into it.
I use and have ..reason, virusti2, proteus x, komplete 6 and maschine (which all route to Cubase as either a vst or through re wire).
Cubase then routes to scope via asio and midi. the asio is used to route all the audio to the mixers in scope... Midi from Cubase is used to trigger synths in scope and to automate anything one desires in scope.

Once templates are set up and you get used to how you want to work, scope xite can fit and mould to anyones workflow.

With regards to point 5 in the op. Saving the whole project and reloading the whole project works pretty much fully just like Cubase saves everything inside its project. But the only thing that seems to not completely get recalled or saved properly in the whole project is midi cc on the mixers so if midi cc is set up on mixers definitely save a midi cc pre set for that mixer to go with the project save file. also scope has note tools to write down notes etc about whats what etc in the project.
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by Liquid EDGE »

and the 1. main bug that I mention about the xite now has a couple of work arounds.

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32315

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32314
niversen
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by niversen »

Fantastic replies. Thank you! Clearly a very decent, and committed community here. I appreciate both the openness about shortcomings, and the specific best ways to work around them. Collectively, you have answered the question as well as I could have hoped, and in a way that lets me understand the workflow implications.

I think the Xite is interesting on two counts: 1) the sound of the synths and 2) the DSP density and that it can go to synths instead of audio toys (vs. UAD or HDX - though HDX does the mixbus too). A VirusTi has only two! It seems that the Xite runs "expensive" algorithms in terms of audio quality and that is attractive, particularly for possible live use where a laptop just can run this kind of stuff.

That said, it is not as though I am unable to work to due to lack of synths or mixdown capability. I was not considering that the Xite would become the "core" of my studio, nor is that likely given the rest of my workflow.

I think I will take dawman's advice, get my Solaris, and then see where I am at. It may be that the release of Scope 6 is what I really want, or what pushes me to experiment. Or perhaps I consider it a "box of synths" for live use, occasionally just routing it into the studio via ADAT or something.

At any rate, I know a good place to get answers should I join the Xite family!

Thanks again!
Bifop
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by Bifop »

Great post Stardust & very good analysis of the matter.

Cheers.
dawman
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by dawman »

stardust wrote:4+) Posing and boasting with DSP gear and audio gear yarn about subjective sound superiority. This is an always valid use for those who prefer to convince with gadgets and waffle and is completely independent of bug fixes, native integration, recall and DSP load balancing.

P.S. welcome sounddesigner to the fanboy club. My recommendation to you is simple. Get out of the fanboy comfort zone and talk to real life studio people here and out there that seek objective fact based advice and try to avoid personal assaults here and there.
cheers stardust
I suggest you tell the OP how you lied about ownership, therefore exempting you from any real analysis of anything other than the card you bought back in 2004.
If you ever owned real powered midfields you'd understand there's a distinct difference in sound quality.
I also use the RME with my older Gigstudio spare, which still after all of these years sounds a tad above Kontakt, so obviously the card works well, even sounds better than my old DSP cards. XITE-1s are a step above the old cards' quality, but not owning one, how would you know anything?

You'd think guys like you with older cards still would have been grateful that Holger and Jurgen were considerate enough to sacrifice our XITE-1 power to keep older devoted members in the game. But all you ever do is come here to bleed on others who actually re-invested in the community.

Why would such a committed "sound designer" who lives in Germany, never stop by the facility, or at least gravel for a free pass to MESSE to share your "in depth" analysis. I am sure they would have realized your financial status and showed appreciation for your investment back in 2004.

Your opinions equal your contributions here.
The only constant in this equation is your envy of ownership.
Do us a favor, break down and buy a Rail Pass, go to Soniccore get a loaner, then test it over and over, with things like arpeggiators, and sequencers, drum boxes, maybe even a way to use voice commands, therefore bypassing the tedious chore of actually having to press a QWERTY key.
I will continue using audio examples, real world experiments, and definately use the great contributions from other members here.
Between the 2 of us, we can paint a better picture.
But you really need some hands on time, let me know if I can help buy the Rail Pass for you.
I am always happy to help, even if it's an old broke down whiner like you.
neuromantik
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by neuromantik »

I don't want to get into the debate as it's clear it's gotten personal but stardust does have a point, and I think he articulated it very kindly given the current state of affairs.

I don't post much on the forum as music is my hobby (and passion) and not my full time job, so I really don't have time to browse the forum unless I need a fix for things. That said, I think the real power of SCOPE is the ingenuity of the original developers and very much the community here! I think everyone who has contributed to the platform (red_muze, jimmy, sharc, faxi, dante, roland, roy, micron... the list goes on, sorry if I missed anything) is unparalleled anywhere else, and I'm fully aware of the electro-music, muff and reaktor communities. Truly I cannot stress that without the folks here @ Z, the jar wouldn't be nearly as full as people make it out to be.

I don't know who owns an Xite or doesn't, who plays SCOPE live and who uses for arrangement/mixing, but I believe that when a forum member describes the various SCOPE quirks to a potential client he shouldn't be assaulted for telling things the way they are. That said, I've learned to deal with the quirks, I most treat scope like external hw, and like back in the early 2000s I bounce stuff to audio and mix in my DAW.

I would recommend SCOPE to anybody who loves synthesis, research and experimentation but not being a professional I can't really argue whether or not SCOPE is indeed the tool for a composer who needs to meet real deadlines, not have to deal with issues like DSP assignment, having to work with a 32bit OS, constant preset saves for fear of losing everything, steering clear of sample pool modules or other BSoD prone devices etc.. There are currently too many reproducible quirks and bugs, and some of them are showstoppers. The sequencer thing is quite annoying, more so since every response to its regression from 4.5 is "Buy Mattomat for 200€ and shut up".

Anyhow just wanted to keep the debate civil and hopefully someone @ S|C will at least "attempt" to take these issues into account and at least provide a roadmap. Hasn't anyone here/there heard of agile development? scrum? use case oriented architecture? :)
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garyb
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by garyb »

real life studio, stardust?

you know nothing about real life studios. you know about bedrooms.

Bill Goldstein is a major force in the industry, he makes music for the top movies and tv shows and won't give up his Pulsar1 card.
Tom Keane is one of the top producers in the world and still uses a 15dsp card for some of the top stars in the world.
Hans Zimmer bought something like 10 XITE-1s. hmmm...
Kevin Walker who is the music director for Justin timberlake still uses a Scope card and is only bummed that the STS sampler doesn't work in 64bit windows, but that doesn't stop him from using the heck out of his card, i wonder why?

i have had a number one song using my Scope system. have you ever had a piece of music hit the charts?

gee, people on the internet can say whatever they want and a lie is harder to disprove than the truth is to prove....


people, the only thing wrong with Sonic|Core and it's speed in fixing and implimenting features and fixes that people want is the size of the staff, including office personnell, only a handful of people are involved. it's slow because it's a huge job but it's being worked on as long as the company is around.
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garyb
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by garyb »

again, you show ignorance. Mr. Goldstein does not have engineers. he does the work himself. he's also more qualified than you to speak about computer music since he was the very first person to do a tv theme completely inside the box. yes, that's right, there wouldn't be pc based products without a pioneer like him.

you don't own any Sonic|Core products that i know of.

another XITE user? well, Roland Kuit is doing quite a bit of important work with modular and with the system's warts and all. i wonder why?

those high-end users don't make S|C any extra money, but asshats like yourself do everything they can to eliminate S|C's ability to make money. do you honestly think that S|C is squirrelling money away instead of hiring staff? what money should they have been doing all the things that you are so up in arms about them not doing? the nothing that you spent?

i have nothing against "bedroomers". they havce as much right to make music as anyone. YOU are the rhetoricist who said that Scope has for and that S|C has no understanding of a "professional studio". pointing out that you are a bedroom user is only pointing out that YOU are the one who knows nothing of "professional studios". i only point to "Mr. Goldstein" because he's a member of the Motion Picture Academy, a VERY high-end professional user who disputes your purile, hate-filled claims.
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Sounddesigner
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Re: Is Xite right for me?

Post by Sounddesigner »

Stardust,

if your so irritated by fanboys, SonicCore and SCOPE's developement then why are you here? No matter what you post and write the fact remains it makes no sense to be apart of a platform if not happy with it despite what you say. If i was a fanboy than it's only natural for me to be here on the products forum since people often buy gear they love and are enthusiastic about, why buy gear that keeps a frown on your face? Such makes no sense. If i felt the need to complain about a piece of gear all the time and bash the company that makes it every chance i get i'd leave the gear alone and not even visit the forum since 'life is too short for all that' (and i've left much gear and forums alone so i speak from experience). You on the other hand clearly have a mission that's of ill-will and shame on those who support it because they partake in harming a just and noble company wich is Sonic Core and thus get innocent blood on their hands, however small it may be.

1. Just like you can come with limitations of SCOPE 'you' feel slowdown people's workflow i can come with limitations of Native that do the same. Such as : You work harder with a sound-quality lack from Native vst's, Routing lack can make you work harder, too much freezing and bouncing when buffer-size increase and one needs ultra-low-latency, freezing and bouncing due to weak power amounts of laptops, etc. There are trade-offs no matter which way of working you choose but one still comes out better with 'SCOPE + Native' rather than Native-only since SCOPE can be used only when desired/needed and work-enviroment can be tailored to need with more options than Native-only (options that include Native-only and more). 2 are going to be better than 1 in every sense e.g. processing power, flexibility, REALtime performance, Sound quality, etc.. And the notion that the modern era is all about working only inside a single Native DAW type workflow is not true as proven by UA Apollo. Many pro's go after what offers the most for their workflow.

2. The picture your trying to portray that SonicCore has done no bugfixes, updates, or any major releases is completely false (Cubase and Wavelab Asio bugfixes,etc; 5.0 and 5.1 O/S software updates wich had new Drivers made; XITE-1 hardware; Modular 4; SDK 5 for XITE and now SDK 6; etc etc; AND THE DEVELOPMENT HAS BEEN FOR TWO PLATFORMS BOTH PCI AND XITE). They've done plenty for a small company taking on the huge job of a highly sophisticated platform that is dsp based in the times of i7 computers and cheap/free vst's, a business move no other company would've made, and they did this cause they love and care for the platform and did not want to see SCOPE die not cause they had to or cause it made business sense. And they even kept the old pci cards alive, this SCOPE platform is here cause of a noble act so some should lose the ungratefulness. Some how when new releases come from SonicCore and SCOPE 3rd party devs people turn a blind-eye and focus solely on what has'nt been done. Development may be slower than some people like but lets be real, SCOPE is a highly developed platform already and the truth is other platforms have only been playing catch-up now and over the years (RME and UA Apollo zero-latency processing of effects; UA interface with routing/converters/mic pre's and dsp power, Protools TDM when it got instruments then when dsp's got upgraded; Native with soundquality, sidechaining, ultra-low-latency, etc). And others have been copy-cats while SCOPE has been a very mature and complete platform for over a decade. SCOPE has done a million and one things for a long time so to make a big issue over a couple things it does'nt do or do well is insane. Should'nt you be asking other interface makers to do more first before complaining about SCOPE since their interfaces does FAAAR less? If something like XITE-1 does more than everything on the market that's similar to it by far then truly the need for more features is more on the other brands. Can one replace XITE with another? If not then you have to ask why. Maybe because doing all that XITE-1 does takes alot of money and man-hours to design and the sophistication means slow development. UA and protools are slow development in some ways, this slowness is common to all the ITB platforms both Native and dsp. Fact is SCOPE is already developed and does more than any interface, sound-module, effects unit, etc on the market.

Crying loud and constant over a minor bug and and new features is silly when major things are offered and usually is just a bashing tactic. There's no such thing as the perfect sandwich. When the current generation of bugs get fixed they'll be another generation and due to SCOPE's nature its development may always be relatively-slow (But logic says it can't truly be that slow if it does more than every product that's similar to it, and other products like UAD with Apollo are slowly looking more and more like SCOPE as time passes because they're playing catch-up.).

The type of fast development, high level VST-integration, etc some people want for SCOPE may never be thus some unhappy oldtimers are going to have to realize this and move on or accept SCOPE for what it is. Complaining/bashing all the time makes no sense. Why let a piece of gear keep you unhappy? If you believe better is elsewhere you should go elsewhere and if you can't find better than maybe the type of better platform and improvements you want is'nt so easy to produce? May be unreasonable! Sonic Core and Audiobisquit are answering some peoples desire for host integration of SCOPE with Parseq wich may also rewire into other DAW's. And faster development will be answered threw Open-SCOPE. Sonic Core has truly focused on solving the problems rather than put a useless band-aid on existing ones.

I'm sure SonicCore knows there are people like djmicron that will take care of the platform while they focus on bigger things. Why get caught up in alot of minor bug fixes when they need to rewrite the whole platforms software anyways? It's already taking years for Open-SCOPE, Parseq, SCOPE 6, etc why make it take longer by getting caught up in every minor thing? Common sense should tell you they need to prioritize in the most efficient and effective way with their limited resources.There is right now a SDK available and mature enough users of it that can come with some solutions to problems (and have) , SCOPE is relatively-self-sufficient without SonicCore cause it was intelligently designed that way, and will be more so with Open-SCOPE. And SCOPE offers more than one way of doing things so there is usually work-arounds when a problem arises.

You seem to be under the impression that SonicCore has to develop SCOPE Platform the way you want and at your pace when in fact it is their product to do with as they damn well please, including discontinuing if they wish. You have more than what you paid for with XITE (Tho i suspect you don't truly own a XITE) and if you felt you did not have what you paid for than you should've returned it, not bought it, or sold it second-hand for if you would've done that your complaints would have true credibility. Using a product while trying to convince others not to makes no sense. If it's good enough for you it's a good chance it's good enough for them. Both you and them should see this.

To call Open-SCOPE and other future releases vapour-ware without any proof they won't be released shows what kind of person you are. What will be said by you the day they are released? Will you apologize to SonicCore for lieing on them when they are released?

I won't waste anymore time here in this thread and provide entertainment for someone obviously with issues tho trying hard to appear as some intelligent professional and noble users. When analyzed thoroughly your arguements don't fully make sense. Just looks good on the surface to those who can't see the whole picture.
Last edited by Sounddesigner on Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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