Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

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ehasting
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Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by ehasting »

Hello,

i am looking at this M3000 from TC and have listen to some of the examples. My impression is that the TC have this great early reflection that can help enhancing the stereo image on single instrument/tracks, and creating some air.

I have tried to get the same effect on masterverb pro, and even the sc-plate.. but its not as pristine as the tc sound like (well.. it could be my material that is rotten), however.. could anyone her give me some hint if it is possible with scope (and with what plug). And eventually how.

I would love to learn :)

http://www.tcelectronic.com/m3000/

Check out sound example: 15 (guitar thingy, wet)
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by petal »

I'd like to learn more about this as well - And hopefully using scope effects.
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by Warp69 »

The VSS3 algorithm (TC3000) has a mono in -> stereo out ER engine that have upto 80+ taps depending on the preset. All the demos in the link have added reverberation besides the ER's.

The Ambience plugin also have close to 80 taps, but with different values of course. The difference is you can have many different patterns on the VSS3 compared to the single, but size adjustable, pattern in the Ambience.

Use (or create) a multitap delay line with 80+ taps in parallel with a reverb.
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by dante »

Yes, with additional processing power required per additional pattern. Unless you use feedback (with random delays) instead :lol:
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by jksuperstar »

Hehe, Dante, that actually describes pretty accurately many reverb algorithms ;)
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by dante »

Yeah, but do you need to feed the output back into the input or can you just calculate it given nothing but the dry signal ?
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by ehasting »

Soooo.. The answer is.. Get an m3000?
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by garyb »

sure! why not!?
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by ehasting »

I was hoping this forum would help me from my GAS.. But obviously You gave me a killer reason to buy the unit!
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by ehasting »

btw warp69.. is there any chance that TC could deliver their VSS3 (from a techincal point of view) as native plugin? or is it too demanding?

(However if they want to is another story).
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by dante »

Sharcs could probably do it but then stymied by PCIe bandwidth ..... :(
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ehasting
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by ehasting »

Dosnt xite/uad has on-board ram, taking away the intense use of pci/pcie bandwidth?
Powercore has the algo, and powercore can run over firewire.
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by petal »

It's true that the XITE has ram onboard, but I believe I read some where, that soniccore has not made this ram available yet in scope 5/5.1.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

If I'm right, I really hope that making this ram available for the developers is high on the agenda at SonicCore's meetings. I like the XITE, but I really had expected that all those damn error messages we see in scope while loading plugins was history with the XITE. Sadly they are not.
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by dante »

My understanding is that (some) developers can (depending on contract) code to the 21369 even if the SDK doesn't support it yet. But it doesn't necessarily follow that the RAM is useful for that purpose, it may be instruction cache rather than audio data cache for reverbs.
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by petal »

True - maybe a bit too much wishful thinking on my part.

A guy can hope though :)
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by Warp69 »

ehasting wrote:btw warp69.. is there any chance that TC could deliver their VSS3 (from a techincal point of view) as native plugin? or is it too demanding?

(However if they want to is another story).
From a technical point of view - easily.

It could also run on Scope boards - it would take the same amount of RAM/DSP as Ambience.
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by Bud Weiser »

petal wrote:It's true that the XITE has ram onboard, but I believe I read some where, that soniccore has not made this ram available yet in scope 5/5.1.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
There´s 32MB RAM on each of the new SHARC DSP chips, but not available yet.
petal wrote: If I'm right, I really hope that making this ram available for the developers is high on the agenda at SonicCore's meetings.
I´m sure, S|C developers think about to make everything available XITE hardware delivers.
The question is how and for what.
The devices in SCOPE are different.
I´m not a expert DSP coder,- but IMO, it might be more imaginable making the RAM available for specific devices than in general.
Since we have 32MB RAM in each of the 12 DSP chips, these 32MB RAM of a single chip might be not enough to create reverb algorithms using 80+ tabs like the TC hardware reverb does,- that will probably require more and dynamicly usable RAM,- so the RAM of the SHARC DSP would have to be organized in clusters and across several DSP chips on demand.
That´s eventually not possible w/ the architecture of a single SHARC DSP chip, so set in stone and not a task for S|C developers.
Please correct me too if I´m wrong w/ that.

OTOH, it might be imaginable, devices running on ONE DSP chip alone,- like a STS-4000 sampler p.ex.,- that would be able to use the 32MB RAM of THAT single chip one day and as a result, STS-4000 might behave like the old AKAI S-1000/3000 series hardware sampler then which both had 32MB RAM available only.
Cool for loading AKAI CD-ROMs,- but that´s not what we want from a sampler today and could only be satisfying as a optional gimmik.
But maybe and one day,- we see STS-4000 sampler streaming samples from disk and use the 32MB RAM on a SHARC chip to hold portions of pre-loaded samples ?

Just only a idea because I don´t have any knowledge about access time of the/a DSP to it´s RAM and if that would be fast enough allowing a to that DSP loaded device immidiate realtime access to the data temporary stored in that RAM.
It can also be, that RAM is usable for instructions only.
petal wrote: I like the XITE, but I really had expected that all those damn error messages we see in scope while loading plugins was history with the XITE. Sadly they are not.
What kind of "all those damn error messages" do you have ?
Up to now, there are bugs in some devices, very few in 32Bit systems, more in 64Bit systems.
With a DSP system like old Creamware PCI cards and XITE, you cannot throw in and out plugins like you do in native VST because of the DSP load and unload processes and re-configuration of DSP load in background which needs some time.
I think it can be optimized in some way but will never be the same than VST.
XITE is a piece of hardware to be pre-configurated by the user for different tasks.
Any different project makes it a different piece of hardware gear and it´s up to the user understanding how XITE DSP system works, what the advantages are and what´s the limits, which obviousely exist.

As a general statement and to prevent an offense,- I´d say "it´s not a idiot proof system" like a VST host is when it comes to loading and removing plugins, changing sample rates and buffer sizes on the fly and such.
That rules for SCOPE 5.1 for the time being, but I expect we´ll see imrovements w/ SCOPE 6 and probably more when ParseQ sees the daylight.

Finally,- I don´t say you´re an idiot w/ my line above,- for me, it was just only the best way to describe what I think about this technology in regards of loading and unloading devices.

B.t.w., sometimes, some of the communication error messages come from connectivity of HDMI cable and PCIe card.
That happened to me 2 or 3 times when I pulled my rackmount machine from the rack for mainenace tasks,- replacing harddrives p.ex..
The HDMI cable has some weight and that has an impact to the card.
Unplugging and plugging HDMI cable has too and sometimes is good to do that twice and take care the PCIe card sits perfect in the slot of the mobo.

Bud
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by dante »

Bud Weiser wrote: Since we have 32MB RAM in each of the 12 DSP chips, these 32MB RAM of a single chip might be not enough to create reverb algorithms using 80+ tabs like the TC hardware reverb does,-
Bud

Well Warp said it would be enough as only needs the same resource as Ambience plug.

That we can test by taking it to Beijing where the ambience is thick and we can see if its too late for energy efficient calculation of musicians reverbs to save mankind :lol: :lol:
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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by Bud Weiser »

dante wrote:
Well Warp said it would be enough as only needs the same resource as Ambience plug.
S**t, that post came in while I typed and then pushed "submit".
dante wrote: That we can test by taking it to Beijing where the ambience is thick and we can see if its too late for energy efficient calculation of musicians reverbs to save mankind :lol: :lol:
:D

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Re: Early reflection, stereo enhancing in scope

Post by petal »

Bud Weiser wrote: What kind of "all those damn error messages" do you have ?
Bud
Well, you know the old classic ones you get, when you load more than 2 voices on Solaris or try to run a setup with 3 different reverb plugins. Situations where you still have loads of DSP-power available, but still have to jump through hoops of different kinds of "error messages" to maybe make it work.

Maybe I am an idiot for expecting issues like these to have been ironed out with the XITE ;) But I really did expect that. Actually I was/am able to load more voices on Solaris if I load it on my PCI-cards instead, and that's on the same machine.
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