Scope Environment - Is it possible without a breakout box?

[forumer]

Hi there

I am thinking about getting an old PCI based scope system but have a few questions for those seasoned users.

What I need to know is if I have say a 6DSP system with no i/o plate can you still use scope environment?

Thanks all

[garyb]

you don't absolutely need a breakout box, but you do need an i/o plate.

[forumer]

Hi there GaryB

My understanding, though probably incorrect, was that the scope environment "encapsulated" your sequencer software and itself provided an asio link to your hardware, similar to ASIO4ALL.

If not can it be made to work this way?

Best regards

[garyb]

yeah, kinda. the Scope environment is like a room that the sequencer is in. the sequencer's audio jacks are the ASIO modules. the hardware i/o also appear in that room, allowing free, realtime routing in any way that is imaginable. you can only use one ASIO app at a time, but there are as many wave/mme drivers as is necessary also, so all apps can talk to each other via the Scope routing window. the i/o module is needed to run in Scope mode. without the i/o daughtercard, the Scope card can only be used as a vst dsp accellerator, like a UAD or TC card.

[forumer]

Hi again.

My understanding, although probably poor, was that putting a DAW program into the scope "room" meant using for example the Cubase multi-media driver and then ASIO outputs from scope mode to the hardware

-or-

Scope captures the asio output of your soundcard before it is sent to the hardware, so therefore a complete end-to-end specification is maintained, eg ASIO 2.2.

I'm probably only guessing but if you could clarify it would be appreciated.

[garyb]

no, Scope is the asio host. Scope, while not a standard windows soundcard, IS the interface.

a driver is a program that connects software to hardware. it cannot connect hardware to hardware. there's no good reason not to use the Scope i/o(except that you don't have any. )

[forumer]

Ok so if Scope becomes the Host, then what does the sequencer become?

[garyb]

a multitrack recorder in a room with a mixer and lots of other good audio tools and toys. if you add a breakout box to that, then you have a realtime patchbay in and out of the computer that can interact with the multitrack recorder and the other audio tools and toys, so that other recorders, live sounds, synths and other intruments as well as the various real world tools and toys one might like can all be used together in REAL TIME, recorder and all, just like a real studio is supposed to operate.

or maybe i shouldn't call Scope the ASIO host, you're right, that's really the sequencer. what i meant to say it that the Scope driver is not a fake ASIO driver like ASIO4all(an ecellent program!), it is hardware with an ASIO driver. there's no way to use the driver without the hardware. ASIO4all is like a bridge between the windows driver and the sequencer, it's not a driver. it provides a link with the sequencer that looks like an ASIO driver while fooling the windows driver into thinking it's talking to a sequencer, or something to that effect. afaik, it's similar to something like midiox, which allows a midi driver from one device talk to another device's midi driver by making a bridge(as though it were the thruput of a sequencer). in any case, afaik, ASIO4all still uses the device's own windows(wdm/mme) driver to talk to the hardware.

anyway, i'm sure i've gone around the block a few times, so i hope i'm actually getting near answering the question clearly and properly.

[forumer]

You seem to provide a lot of answers in this place so I guess it's up to us "forumers" to keep up the questions

I pictured scope mode as having cubase inside it literally but I guess thinking about it now that was rather a bit naive.

Anyway now I am wondering if Scope is more like a system tray applet that you use so in Cubase say you set the SonicCore platform as your ASIO driver and then when you open Scope Environment you can see the outputs of cubase which would be similar to RME totalmix would that be correct or any other soundcards' control panel like M-audio etc., with the difference being that you have access to additional effects, which if correct is making me wonder why other manufacturers don't do the same thing, ie provide an additional layer of processing.

If the model I describe is correct, does that mean I can no longer use native and/or DSP based effects from other manufacturers?

Hope I'm on the right track here.

Thanks again

[garyb]

sorta, Scope is much more comprehensive.

Scope is more akin to ProTools HD in that it actually IS external hardware. the dsps are what make much of the hardware run. totalmix is not really the same, except for having some routing possibilities.

i do all my mixing and processing in Scope. i do recording and editing in Cubase and i do CD editing in Samplitude. there are many different ways to use Scope, though. Jimmy has used Scope for live stage synths and audio mixing for years. Hans Zimmer used it for Academy Awards...

Scope is high-end studio gear, that happens to be a great interface. it's the biggest no-brainer, stupid cheap, most flexible piece of audio gear ever made, no lie. a Scope system is meant to be used for 10, 20, 30 years, mine have been running more than 10 now, and are running better than ever. Scope is not just a piece of computer crap that's meant to be replaced or obsoleted in six months, which may be why more people don't know about it. it's for the hardcore...

actually, Scope is not perfect. there is only midi automation(which is really easy to use and works well, though). it doesn't sync to 88.2khz. there are some bugs(NONE which are show stoppers and it is very stable other than the known bugs). the thing is, that an XITE-1 is more powerful than $40,000 of PTHD, with no real loss in quality, so it's hard to really be mad about the faults(ok, she gets a couple of blemishes when it's that time of the month, no big deal). Scope can replace $100's of thousands of dallors of hardware without bogging down the host cpu.

the good thing is that the owners of the company are among the tops in their field(dsp design and programming), and while they're a bit slow, they do what NO ONE else in the business can do.

real time means that instruments, effects and mixers can be used live. it means that overdubs have no slapback echo. it means that you can go in and out of the computer as many times as you like with no more latency that going through digital hardware effects or an analog mixer.

thanks for providing an outlet for my enthusiasm.

[Mr Arkadin]

Anyway now I am wondering if Scope is more like a system tray applet that you use so in Cubase say you set the SonicCore platform as your ASIO driver and then when you open Scope Environment you can see the outputs of cubase which would be similar to RME totalmix would that be correct or any other soundcards' control panel like M-audio etc., with the difference being that you have access to additional effects, which if correct is making me wonder why other manufacturers don't do the same thing, ie provide an additional layer of processing.

If the model I describe is correct, does that mean I can no longer use native and/or DSP based effects from other manufacturers?

Obsolutely you can still use native effects. And hardware. This the beauty of Scope - if you can imagine you can do it. I'm probably similar to Gary in that I use Scope to mix. Cubase becomes almost a glorified multitrack recorder. However I do have a soft spot for GForce and fxpansion so I just buss the outputs of those (via ASIO) into the Scope mixer. Samplers and sample streaming libraries are also easier in native (although I do use the Scope STS sampler, it's a bit clunky but sounds great), so just buss those. Then you can either buss things back into Cubase for recording or just take a stereo out of Scope and record that as your final mix. Of course you have to record real time, but I think freeze isn't working properly in Cubase anyway. Personally I have no problem listening to my tracks in real time (if I do then the track must not be very good and I should trash it. ).

Then of course you can get your hardware into Scope easily (if you have I/O that is). All this is real time - no latency so you can hear any DSP effects live rather than applying afterwards (handy for using the reverb with singers). Of course with all the routing options you can still record dry, but perform with an effects mix in you cans.

If you get DSP I would be surprised if you ended up using many natives synths & effects - apart from say some weird boutique thing. There are some great stock ones, but the users here make some pro-worthy devices for free and you can also buy some very good third party devices: they just don't have the fancy branding/hype of having Roland/UA etc. badges on them. Some people need the comfort of designer labels: I don't. I prefer good sounding devices.

[astroman]

Then of course you can get your hardware into Scope easily (if you have I/O that is). All this is real time - no latency so you can hear any DSP effects live rather than applying afterwards (handy for using the reverb with singers). Of course with all the routing options you can still record dry, but perform with an effects mix in you cans...

to be precise if that external hardware happens to be of the digital type, you can even compensate it's tiny amount of latency right from the Scope 2448 mixer.
I have a Rocktron Intellifex routed as an external fx constantly and delay the 'dry' channel of the instrument (bass or guitar) for exactly 60 samples.
To measure the amount required is an easy process: invert the channel an adjust sample delay for minimal loudness, then put it back to normal and save the setting - bingo.

cheers, Tom

[nightscope]

to be precise if that external hardware happens to be of the digital type, you can even compensate it's tiny amount of latency right from the Scope 2448 mixer.

Hmm, I've never got my tiny brain round this DSP latency thang. If the external hardware to Scope FX inserts are analogue boxs is there any latency to be bothered about?

ns

[astroman]

of course no need to be concerned about each and every fraction of a millisecond
but even from Scope to analog boxes and back into Scope is 2 conversion stages, probably 20 samples or so.
Of course this only matters if you have the dry signal on it's own channel parallel.
The Intellifex has quite nice ambiences - on drums the difference does matter for sure.
Whatever it is... (you might as well 'adjust' the drum mics this way)... it's a handy and useful feature.

cheers, Tom

[nightscope]

from Scope to analog boxes and back into Scope is 2 conversion stages, probably 20 samples or so.

Cool. That'll do me. Thanks for the info.

ns

[pollux]

You seem to provide a lot of answers in this place so I guess it's up to us "forumers" to keep up the questions

I pictured scope mode as having cubase inside it literally but I guess thinking about it now that was rather a bit naive.

Anyway now I am wondering if Scope is more like a system tray applet that you use so in Cubase say you set the SonicCore platform as your ASIO driver and then when you open Scope Environment you can see the outputs of cubase which would be similar to RME totalmix would that be correct or any other soundcards' control panel like M-audio etc., with the difference being that you have access to additional effects, which if correct is making me wonder why other manufacturers don't do the same thing, ie provide an additional layer of processing.

If the model I describe is correct, does that mean I can no longer use native and/or DSP based effects from other manufacturers?

Hope I'm on the right track here.

Thanks again

Scope has also a second mode: XTC (or VSTIM in V5). In this mode, scope FX run inside the host (Cubase, Sonar, etc), just like an UAD or Duende card.. so basically you load scope plugins just as any other VST/VSTi plugin in your host, and you can access Sope I/Os (if any) directly from the host.

[forumer]

Scope has also a second mode: XTC (or VSTIM in V5). In this mode, scope FX run inside the host (Cubase, Sonar, etc), just like an UAD or Duende card.. so basically you load scope plugins just as any other VST/VSTi plugin in your host, and you can access Sope I/Os (if any) directly from the host.

Hi,

So but in terms of Scope Mode, can I still use my UAD's etc or am I limited to only one or the other?

[nightscope]

So but in terms of Scope Mode, can I still use my UAD's etc or am I limited to only one or the other?

In normal Scope mode your UAD plugs would go on your host tracks. Host tracks go by ASIO to Scope environment & mixer however you want. Via a single stereo buss or up to 64 mono or 32 stereo multi channels[or a selction of mono and stereo]. You can then mix the ASIO host stuff with Scope synths and use the Scope FX, etc, wherever in the mixers.

In XTC mode Scope plugins/synths, most of them anyhow, show up inside your host and act as VST/VSTi's but the
Scope environment is not available for mixing, just your card I/O's which also show up in the host.

ns

[garyb]

yes, you can use the UADs all you want in Scope mode. they will just be inside the sequencer mixer as always. it's a perfectly fine place for them as the compressors might as well be inserted as far up the chain as possible and reverb outputs can have their own ASIO channels out of the sequencer. it's not an all or nothing approach. it's all inclusive.

[forumer]

yes, you can use the UADs all you want in Scope mode. they will just be inside the sequencer mixer as always. it's a perfectly fine place for them as the compressors might as well be inserted as far up the chain as possible and reverb outputs can have their own ASIO channels out of the sequencer. it's not an all or nothing approach. it's all inclusive.

Thanks garyb and nightscope

I refer to your (and others') prior discussions here regarding the use of scope effects in real-time, ie on recording and seek your kindness in relation to this particular subject, as all I seem to be able to adequately perform is mixing with my current setup.

In relation to your above quoted comment, this idea would seem best used as a kind of mixing environment even withstanding the use of other native &/or dsp branded effects in the sequencer, am I right, as going to something like UAD etc would cause additional latency which may ultimately effect the signal "downstream".

regards