SCOPE 64 Bit beta..........?

[Sounddesigner]

And Im looking forward to the day where SC announce that the Pulsar, Pulsar2, Scope and Scope2 are legacy products and will therefor not receive any new updates. Any company in the world has to earn money to survive, innovate and create. And let us be honest - there're EXTREMELY few on this forum that are prepared to invest any more money on their Scope environment.

SC - Please let the old platform die and let us concentrate on the new XITE platform. Make 64bit for XITE only and if you have time in the next 3-5 years then maybe release that for the current PCI cards.

I agree if they fix all bugs for the pci version.Not 98% of the bugs..i mean 100%!And make plugs compatibel to a certain degree.

that would be the FIRST time anything like that happened in the computer industry.

actually, i don't think that Scope PCI developement actually slows XITE(pci-e) developement. i suspect that they're pretty synergystic, since they're almost the identical technology. S/C really needs the be praised for continuing to support Scope in all forms, although it's obvious that sooner or later the PCI cards will have to be abandoned. after that, they'll still be good for another 10 years, so no worries...

I vaguely remember reading that the x64bit drivers (asio, wav) where working on XITE-1 but not on pci awhile back. If that is true then altho the two platforms are similar there are some differences. Such differences will be developement-time from the new to give to old. Also many of the old plugins that run on XITE-1 are hungrier power-wise then they should be because they don't take advantage of the new architecture, when Sonic Core starts making plugins and other features that take advantage of the new dsp architecture they'll also need to develope a second version that does'nt. They'll need to market and handle tech-support for the second version. Lastly they'll hear endless complaints like they do now from second version and it's pci platform in general. If a product is discontinued whats to complain about?

Don't get me wrong i'm VERY happy S|C is currently developing for the old PCI aswell, it is further proof that SCOPE is a great longterm investment. But at some point it may steal too much time from Sonic Core's future products and the old pci like Warp69 mentioned may not be profitable. I'll bet 80% or more of the pci cards bought over the last few years where not new thus S|C had little to no benifit, but those used cards brought alot of tech support (Sonic Core had to stop selling the plugin transfer service in the online shop), and because alot of plugins are included with the used cards probably very few new plugins where bought. But i'm sure alot more complaining has come from the sales of those used cards.

I am glad Sonic Core is further developing the old pci cards but i do also believe they may need to discontinue soon, developing both Platforms may not be worth it profit wise and it may cost time-wise for the new platform wich = profit loss. I think Sonic Core is spreaded too thin with XITE-1, Solaris, PCI, SDK, and MAC version, etc . I do also believe S|C need to get the Windows version stronger and improved with alot more new features before considering developing MAC version. The reason i feel all of this is because it is obviouse in my eyes that Sonic Core is spreaded too thin since it takes them so long to finish things, altho they have made some Major accomplishments already. I know many may not fully agree with me but that's my 2 cents.

[CroNiX]

Virtual PC was 'the better Windows' from day one on.
You could (originally) host it on any sh*t making it an extremely convient tool.
For example one could save a running Windows anytime and it was a very fast and compact application.
Someone crashed it's installation. Copy the image, reload the vm, bingo...
You could even define a 'basic' Windows state, work and it auto-rolled back to the startpoint.
Ok, some problems with protection schemes and licenses come to mind, tho...

Of course the first thing M$ did was cripple it, so you only could host it under XP.
Didn't take long and they sacked it completely - that's the way they do it

cheers, Tom

I had a thought the other day and you just reminded me of it. I was wondering if it is at all possible to run scope/32bit within a virtualized 32 bit os while hosted on a 64 bit platform. Like Win7/64 -> Virtual PC -> Win7/32 (w/scope).

[darkrezin]

And Im looking forward to the day where SC announce that the Pulsar, Pulsar2, Scope and Scope2 are legacy products and will therefor not receive any new updates. Any company in the world has to earn money to survive, innovate and create. And let us be honest - there're EXTREMELY few on this forum that are prepared to invest any more money on their Scope environment.

SC - Please let the old platform die and let us concentrate on the new XITE platform. Make 64bit for XITE only and if you have time in the next 3-5 years then maybe release that for the current PCI cards.

I think what you say is true to a large extent. I think a lot of the reluctance to invest is because of previous mismanagement and poor business decisions. A lot of people here bought full price plugins and then saw them effectively become worthless because of bundles, and then no upgrade breaks for the people who paid full price (Mod4, ugh). Investment is fine, but there has to be some kind of reward for loyalty. In a capitalist world, there are many other companies who can offer a better deal and give more back. It's one thing believing in the power of the DSP and just being happy that something like this can even exist, but there's a million different ways of working in a studio, you don't NEED an XITE or a PT HD rig to do good work. With the economy the way it is, there isn't much room for romanticizing this shit IMHO. To survive, a company has to create the product and then keep delivering with good support and good value. Otherwise users are just going to get something else that can get their job done more cheaply/efficiently. PT HD is going 'native' soon, most people just don't really care about DSPs and zero latency anymore.

I certainly doubt that SC sells many new PCI cards because there's so many cheap 2nd hand cards these days, so they probably should discontinue them. The thing is though, I can't see SC surviving with just the XITE as the only product. My personal issues with the XITE are that it's too expensive, has too much DSP for what I need, IMHO doesn't even have enough I/O to take advantage of all that power, and has 2 pointless on-board preamps. It needs at least 24 i/o over ADAT to make it a viable mixing solution, preferably 32 or more. And Z-link isn't enough - only the A16U can be used with it! As great as the A16U is for the money (I have one), there are many better converters out there. If they made something with half/quarter of the power of an XITE with the current I/O minus the preamps that I don't need, at a more affordable price (something like 800-1000EU) I'd certainly look at it.

Until then I'll use my PCI cards until they die. When you've been running the same driver for 5 or 6 years it's already pretty much a legacy device There's no real motivation for me to update to v5 beta - I already bought the new reverbs before they were bundled free, and I don't want to beta test new bugs. 2500 EU is a lot of money to drop on a company that seems really really slow in finalising software (I hate to be a hater but the delay is getting rather long now), and has a history of mismanagement (I know the current management is new, but you can't deny it's a concern). I know that things are not straightforward in audio soft/hardware development, and I really want SC to succeed, but I need to see a lot more tangible results in terms of finished software and affordable products in order to invest. Just being honest here, sorry.

[Fluxpod]

And Im looking forward to the day where SC announce that the Pulsar, Pulsar2, Scope and Scope2 are legacy products and will therefor not receive any new updates. Any company in the world has to earn money to survive, innovate and create. And let us be honest - there're EXTREMELY few on this forum that are prepared to invest any more money on their Scope environment.

SC - Please let the old platform die and let us concentrate on the new XITE platform. Make 64bit for XITE only and if you have time in the next 3-5 years then maybe release that for the current PCI cards.

I think what you say is true to a large extent. I think a lot of the reluctance to invest is because of previous mismanagement and poor business decisions. A lot of people here bought full price plugins and then saw them effectively become worthless because of bundles, and then no upgrade breaks for the people who paid full price (Mod4, ugh). Investment is fine, but there has to be some kind of reward for loyalty. In a capitalist world, there are many other companies who can offer a better deal and give more back. It's one thing believing in the power of the DSP and just being happy that something like this can even exist, but there's a million different ways of working in a studio, you don't NEED an XITE or a PT HD rig to do good work. With the economy the way it is, there isn't much room for romanticizing this shit IMHO. To survive, a company has to create the product and then keep delivering with good support and good value. Otherwise users are just going to get something else that can get their job done more cheaply/efficiently. PT HD is going 'native' soon, most people just don't really care about DSPs and zero latency anymore.

I certainly doubt that SC sells many new PCI cards because there's so many cheap 2nd hand cards these days, so they probably should discontinue them. The thing is though, I can't see SC surviving with just the XITE as the only product. My personal issues with the XITE are that it's too expensive, has too much DSP for what I need, IMHO doesn't even have enough I/O to take advantage of all that power, and has 2 pointless on-board preamps. It needs at least 24 i/o over ADAT to make it a viable mixing solution, preferably 32 or more. And Z-link isn't enough - only the A16U can be used with it! As great as the A16U is for the money (I have one), there are many better converters out there. If they made something with half/quarter of the power of an XITE with the current I/O minus the preamps that I don't need, at a more affordable price (something like 800-1000EU) I'd certainly look at it.

Until then I'll use my PCI cards until they die. When you've been running the same driver for 5 or 6 years it's already pretty much a legacy device There's no real motivation for me to update to v5 beta - I already bought the new reverbs before they were bundled free, and I don't want to beta test new bugs. 2500 EU is a lot of money to drop on a company that seems really really slow in finalising software (I hate to be a hater but the delay is getting rather long now), and has a history of mismanagement (I know the current management is new, but you can't deny it's a concern). I know that things are not straightforward in audio soft/hardware development, and I really want SC to succeed, but I need to see a lot more tangible results in terms of finished software and affordable products in order to invest. Just being honest here, sorry.

Gawd still on about those plugs.
Pthd will not go native anytime soon.NONONO they will not!
Sc arent selling any pci boards because they do not make any.
There arent any converters that do what the a16 ultra is doing at a comparable pricepoint at all.
If you are working in the industry you need pthd and a solution to share projekts.There is absolutly NO doubt about that! You can go nuendo-logic or whatever but the big tools will stay.
Avid and euphonics merged and the system 5 and the icon are the standart in post audio and more.
Xite needs more i-o options yes.
If you want affordable go native.
Hardfactsarehard.
Dankeschön.

[darkrezin]

lol

Dude - I'm perfectly happy. Just offering some perspective from the other side. All I was saying is that most people ain't interested in romanticizing DSPs, they just want to get work done. And c'mon about the A16U - I said I fucking have one. My point isn't about how it sounds - just that it's not acceptable to have the choice of 1 interface for that I/O port.

PT HD Native is a fact, just ask the many many people selling their TDM rigs right now It's not really much of a secret anymore... The point is not the cost. You will still need to buy a 192-style interface which is the 'dongle'. My point is that it won't use TDM DSP (i.e. Core/Accel cards).

If SC can survive with their hard toys for the big boys, I wish them the best of luck. I just can't see it happening that's all.

Carry on flaming

[the19thbear]

Im completely with you darkrezin
love scope, use it alot but a bit worried about no madi, Price etc... And the future.
I really hope they make it though!

[Fluxpod]

lol

Dude - I'm perfectly happy. Just offering some perspective from the other side. All I was saying is that most people ain't interested in romanticizing DSPs, they just want to get work done. And c'mon about the A16U - I said I fucking have one. My point isn't about how it sounds - just that it's not acceptable to have the choice of 1 interface for that I/O port.

PT HD Native is a fact, just ask the many many people selling their TDM rigs right now It's not really much of a secret anymore... The point is not the cost. You will still need to buy a 192-style interface which is the 'dongle'. My point is that it won't use TDM DSP (i.e. Core/Accel cards).

If SC can survive with their hard toys for the big boys, I wish them the best of luck. I just can't see it happening that's all.

Carry on flaming

I dont "flame".I state facts.
You can choose whatever interface you want with scope.
You probably have read about that crack and the wrong info that it involves pthd.(its about pt and no it doesnt have adc and involves a programm to use any interface which involves unknown problems.No tdm-noadc-no vca and so on.
Avid will not go native in the next years.Also...you can use apogee with the hd interface or lynx aurora with the hd interface or prism....
People who want to get work dont will choose the industry option which is pthd.
Dsp solutions are far far far far far far far from beeing gone as uad with the uad-2 modell is proving.
I dont know anybody in professional work that is selling pthd rigs to change to???.Upgrading...yes.Changing? NO!

You are still sore about spending money on plugs that are now included in sfp 5 and that is all.

[darkrezin]

Your reply is sad but not unexpected. No (sigh) I am not getting confused with the crack, which is an entirely separate issue. Go do some research about Pro Tools Native. It's not official but is really not a secret anymore.

Also you don't seem to read what I wrote. You can use 16 channels of whatever interface you want, but after that it's the A16U or the... Luna box. Nice choice.

Regarding the plugins - it was sad and disappointing, but I'm over it. But it's definitely a factor when I decide how I'm gonna invest my money in future, and I think it's probably the same for other users - that's why I brought it up. I was replying to Warp's comment that current users aren't willing to invest. This is a reason why. But again, you don't seem to want to read what I write, you're just coming up with reactionary drivel

[Fluxpod]

Your reply is sad but not unexpected. No (sigh) I am not getting confused with the crack, which is an entirely separate issue. Go do some research about Pro Tools Native. It's not official but is really not a secret anymore.

Also you don't seem to read what I wrote. You can use 16 channels of whatever interface you want, but after that it's the A16U or the... Luna box. Nice choice.

Regarding the plugins - it was sad and disappointing, but I'm over it. But it's definitely a factor when I decide how I'm gonna invest my money in future, and I think it's probably the same for other users - that's why I brought it up. I was replying to Warp's comment that current users aren't willing to invest. This is a reason why. But again, you don't seem to want to read what I write, you're just coming up with reactionary drivel

Yeah so use whatever interface that features adat i/o you want.A16 or luna? I dont understand.You could use lynx-prism-apogee or whatever you want,hell use a behringer a8000 if you are on a budged.
About pthd..its rumor that has been ongoing for years.Its nothing..really.I dont need researching internet myth that are nothing but lousy drivel pushed up by bedroom guys.
I have been reading that since 2005.I dont comment on drivel thats why i adress the stuff you are wrong about and nothing else.
And what is it with 192 interfaces people dont get? You have the choice......

[darkrezin]

the point is that it's only 16 i/o on ADAT, sigh. Never mind... you're hard work Fluxpod. I dunno why the fuck I bothered. Carry on as usual.

[Fluxpod]

the point is that it's only 16 i/o on ADAT, sigh. Never mind... you're hard work Fluxpod. I dunno why the fuck I bothered. Carry on as usual.

And there are tonns of 16 or 8 i/o adat converters out there.Even aes-ebu to adat converters.But you keep going.If you lay off the insults you may even learn something.

[MD69]

Hi,

Apart from the driver, there is the "external" graphic library (WxWindow) which need to be ported. Either they have to do it on their owns, or check with wxWidget if it is already available as 64bits library.

Any of these solutions requires a large amount of times as these tools have not been developped internally.

cheers

[darkrezin]

And fluxpod, you might actually understand something if you read. Let me spell it out for you again - my problem is that the XITE only has 16i/o on ADAT, the rest is preamps I don't need and Z-link. So what if I want to use 24 channels of Apogee or Lavry? I can't and that's the problem. Do you understand now?

And by the way I can do that just fine with my ancient PCI cards

[Fluxpod]

I do but only after your last reply which made that clear.Its too much dsp for you as you said right?So why not use a scope prox2 or wait for a i/o expander for the xite?And if..you need that much i/o there are other solutions that supply your needs.You seem to search for the weak point in the system to make a point.Maybe its time to move on.The solutions are there as 16 ch i/o free of choice and 16 ch of sc i/o on zlink.

I see you edited your post.But its a pointless writeup anyways.You wont buy a xite and thats fine.Your Points about pthd and the rest are still nonsense.

[darkrezin]

Yep, and I'm happy to stay with my cards (I only edited my post to say I could do that with my cards). My point is that it's a shame for SC that I'm staying with a legacy system because they don't have a new system that I can buy to have the same functionality. Is it even possible to combine XITE boxes for DSP and I/O like the old cards? It's a big shame if they didn't build this into the architecture. Anyway the I/O is a big deal-breaker for me even if I could afford the thing. I'm not losing sleep over it, I have many other tools Logic 9, maschine, wavedrum (must add to Ken's review thread sometime), mks-80, rhodes, various outboard/FX, analog mixer. I have access to modulars and synths and other outboard. I'm not lacking much - if anything I could do with more pre's and analog synths, and I'm not complaining for my sake. But this is a forum for voicing opinions and I was just saying it would help SC's chances of surviving if there was an affordable version. It would also be good for devs like Warp to have a decent userbase to sell to.

Re: PT Native - I've also been hearing the rumour since 2005, even met people who had been invited to see the box they had at the time. But the recent rumours are way stronger than I've ever seen before, to the effect that it's either gonna be later this year or first half of next. Time will tell, I don't really care either way, but I do think it will happen.

[darkrezin]

BTW if I had over 2000 EU to spend on DSP, I'd go for a Symbolic Sound Paca (about 300 EU cheaper than an XITE). It's not stacked with preamps and other pointless things that bump up the cost. It has a genius little system which lets you hook up any FW/USB interface for I/O. And it's developed by what is basically a husband/wife team that makes software that does things that nothing else can do. Blows my mind

[garyb]

most of your concerns are about to be met. i really doubt if any of this would be a problem to someone who could afford 24 channels of Lavry. also, it's doubtful if any but the highest end studios would even need 24 channels of Lavry adda. the i/o on Scope is actually pretty mighty. the A16 is pretty good, not quite Apogee, but the difference is mainly noise, and only the highest budget acoustic recordings would even know the difference. yes, more i/o possibilities would be a good idea, as would a lesser powered version. no, i wouldn't say that the XITE is over powered. finally, as i said at the beginning, most of your concerns are about to be met, from the buzz on the grapevine.

[Sounddesigner]

There is a XTDM connector on the XITE-1 wich i'm sure will be for connecting something else to it such as more i/o's or another XITE-1. I'm sure XITE-1 will follow the same theme of the older pci platform and more.

EDITED

[darkrezin]

Hi Gary, Lavry was just an example I do have 8 in/24 out Apogee though, as well as an A16U. It's not that the cost should or shouldn't be an issue to someone who can afford nice gear. It all depends on what you're going to use it for. If you're going to use XITE as the only thing in your studio then yes, it's undoubtedly worth the money. But if your studio is not going to revolve around it, then it does become more of an issue, because there's many other things I need to buy, and do I really need 2800 EU's worth of DSP? Yes, the noise is the main issue in the A16U... 'definition' etc is subjective. But yeah I think the small amount of 'standard' I/O was a bad oversight. Nice to see it's probably being addressed. If they could address the 'affordable version' issue, I'd be very happy

[iSiStOy]

SC - Please let the old platform die and let us concentrate on the new XITE platform. Make 64bit for XITE only and if you have time in the next 3-5 years then maybe release that for the current PCI cards.

... And more than anything, focus on stabilizing the core platform itself and extending its developer user base with publishing some Xite SDK first!