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 Post subject: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:12 am 
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Are there any scope devices that implement this other than to expand the controller range?
I have an Elka MK88 Master keyboard with just about every MIDI implementation you can name, including this. AFAIK, I haven't any outboard gear which does.

Just hoping :)

Roll on SDK!

Eric.

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:30 am 
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You'd be surprise how much outboard gear responds to polyphonic aftertouch. It's not often well documented but many synths can receive it. Just assign the controller# to a parameter and mess around. There is nothing particularly esoteric about receiving it, it's just rare because it was expensive to implement in keyboards. I only recently got a keyboard that can send it, and I haven't dived into using it with scope, but don't expect it would be a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:06 am 
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greenbluegold wrote:
You'd be surprise how much outboard gear responds to polyphonic aftertouch. It's not often well documented but many synths can receive it. Just assign the controller# to a parameter and mess around. There is nothing particularly esoteric about receiving it, it's just rare because it was expensive to implement in keyboards. I only recently got a keyboard that can send it, and I haven't dived into using it with scope, but don't expect it would be a problem.


Thanks.

I just looked at Blue Synth as an example. If you right click any knob you get the standard MIDI controller assign object. It allows you to assign any of 0-119 controller numbers. These are 0-31 continuous controllers, 64-95 switches, 122-127 channel mode messages and some undefined. These MIDI messages are 3 bytes in the form - bx, controller number, controller position. Where b is the control change message id in hex (4 bits), x is the MIDI channel number in hex (4 bits), controller number (ie 0-119) in hex and controller position (0-127) in hex. Whereas Poly Pressure is 3 bytes in the form ax, key number, pressure. These are as per MIDI Spec 1.0. I can't see anywhere to assign this message type. I believe that it has to has to be specifically programmed into the device.

I've checked the MIDI Implementation Charts of my outboard gear and none show support for Poly Pressure.

I'll do some research for synths that support it.

Eric.

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:05 am 
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It's quite rare in my experience on hardware synths... not only because there aren't many keyboards that support it, but because it's polyphonic modulation, and the synth has to have a way of assigning and routing the polyphonic data to various parameters. This is a lot more complex than monophonic modulation like modwheel/channel aftertouch/expression pedal etc because these simply alter a parameter's 'initial value' (the position from which it is modulated).

I don't think there's a way of using it in Scope synths unless there are any synths with dedicated support for poly AT.


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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:48 am 
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Solaris Hardware, Solaris 5.0 & QWave DSP versions too.

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:45 am 
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hardware which will receive polyphonic aftertouch

ensoniqs after the sq80
many emu modules
waldorfs
alesis ion/micron
prophet 8 , poly evolver
some rolands jv1080 u220,

software:

many vsts
NI reaktor


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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:46 am 
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Here's a hardware model that will transmit. It uses the same DSP chips in the XITE-1. It switched between Polyphonic Pressure and Polyphonic Aftertouch Mode.

http://www.infiniteresponse.com/

It uses just one chip but this technology will be dialed in by NAMM 2010.
I demo'd it at NAMM but they were more interested in their action, ( which sucked ) than it's PAT capabilities. Being hooked up to a Receptor using Ivory Grand Piano was not a great way to demo this.
Once these guys work out the bugs and fix the crappy action it will be tough to beat, and quite expensive compared what to most home controllers people prefer.
Having this controlling the Scope synths with PAT would be heavenly.
Here's a close up I took @ NAMM that shows the build quality in it's folded position.

Attachment:
IMG_1704.JPG

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:27 am 
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Thanks all for the input. I went and read some old threads about this AFTER I posted :oops: but new opinions welcome.

So it looks like very few scope devices currently support Poly Pressure(PP) aka Poly Aftertouch(PAT). Solaris being one important exception!

The point is that PP doesn't need to be derived from a keboard. You can generate Poly Pressure messages any way you like. The limit of contollers can be extended by 128 x 16 using PP. This is because each note is basically a seperate controller and each note can have one of 16 MIDI chanels. For example, you could assign note 23, MIDI channel 5 to a filter and generate that signal real time in a number of ways (In fact the current perceived limit of 120 controllers is really 120 x 16 if you dedicate one physical MIDI output to it). Something like a touch sensitve square pad (ala Haken Continuum) with areas assigned to different PP messages. It would be nice to have real time control of some parameters while playing and without lifting off the keyboard but I see this PP implementation as a mixing/recording creative tool rather than a live tool. (sorry Jimmy V :( ) This is one of the projects I will be working on when I get the SDK. "Real soon now" :lol:


Any feedback from developers about implementing PP in the controller assignments of parameters would be welcome.

Eric.

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:58 pm 
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XITE-1/4LIVE wrote:
Solaris Hardware, Solaris 5.0 & QWave DSP versions too.
Sorry Jimmy, but the Solaris and QWave don't have PolyPressure connected inside...yet! It's easy to add, if the MIDI Voice module does really provide that control signal.
The hardware keyboard Solaris does have PolyAT in the Mod Control Source list.

Don't confuse poly glide with poly aftertouch..... :-)
-john b.


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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:39 pm 
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Sorry 'Bout That Cheif.......... 8)
Perhaps the mistake I quoted can be turned into a beautiful new way to play... :wink:

Ankyuvarymush..

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:47 pm 
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greenbluegold wrote:
hardware which will receive polyphonic aftertouch


Hardware that doesn't (but definitely should!):

Access Virus
Alesis Andromeda
StudioElectronics Omega
Jomox Sunsyn
Yamaha modules, especially most recent ones
Older Roland Analog synths: MKS-70, MKS-80, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:23 pm 
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You sound like a Solaris lover Marzzz...................... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:01 pm 
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johnbowen wrote:
... but the Solaris and QWave don't have PolyPressure connected inside...yet!
-john b.


I look forward to it. That means I'll have to buy it then! :)

Eric.

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:17 am 
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For those of you interested in PAT, I just noticed a "quirk" in Cubase VST 5

I was curious to see if when you transposed a part, if the corresponding PAT would be transposed as well. Then I thought - "wait a minute this IS Cubase, developed over many years and IMHO one of the most intuitive sequencers ever conceived! Of course they would have thought of that!" Sadly I have to report that transposing a part with PAT _DOES NOT_ transpose the PAT messages associated with the notes. This is using the Functions|MIDI functions|Transpose/Velocity tool.
I had a look at the Logical editor. PAT transposition can be done there but has to be done separately from note info. - tricky to keep them synchronized.

I also noticed that you can't change note-off velocity in the logical editor either! (It is Value3). You have to do it in the List editor.

:-?


Eric.

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:48 am 
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Cubase 5 has a new expression track that has guys quacking.
Have you tried the seperate messages in that control track ?
It's suppose tp be able to change keyswitches articulations and many other great tricks, so when guys record a track, all of their performance tricks can be running while they add the note on/off values.
I am curious if a hardware sequencer would work.

Thanks For Sharing,

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:22 am 
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I'm using Cubase VST32 version 5.2 PB1 Beta7 not the current Cubase 5 :)
But now I'm looking at upgrading/purchasing. :D

Eric.

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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:12 am 
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eric wrote:
I just looked at Blue Synth as an example. If you right click any knob you get the standard MIDI controller assign object. It allows you to assign any of 0-119 controller numbers. These are 0-31 continuous controllers, 64-95 switches, 122-127 channel mode messages and some undefined. These MIDI messages are 3 bytes in the form - bx, controller number, controller position. Where b is the control change message id in hex (4 bits), x is the MIDI channel number in hex (4 bits), controller number (ie 0-119) in hex and controller position (0-127) in hex. Whereas Poly Pressure is 3 bytes in the form ax, key number, pressure. These are as per MIDI Spec 1.0. I can't see anywhere to assign this message type. I believe that it has to has to be specifically programmed into the device.
Eric.
Eric,
You will never be able to right click and assign a MIDI Controller for Polyphonic AT...it's not in the controller list, and besides, does not make sense in this example. Let's say you could assign a knob on a Scope plug-in to PolyAT....then each key's aftertouch would be fighting over one knob to control it....probably taking the most recent event each time as a new one comes in. In otherwords, knobs are not polyphonic - just like in the real world. It's like have 4 people in your studio, all trying to adjust the filter cutoff knob on your Minimoog at the same time.
-John b.


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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:21 pm 
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The 'KeyP 2 Val' module in BC Modular is based on Poly Aftertouch, but is more geared towards adding extra parameter control (i.e. you select which 'key' you want it to respond to). It shouldn't be too difficult to adjust for regular PolyAT response. I'll look into it for the next update.


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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:10 pm 
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sharc wrote:
The 'KeyP 2 Val' module in BC Modular is based on Poly Aftertouch, but is more geared towards adding extra parameter control (i.e. you select which 'key' you want it to respond to). It shouldn't be too difficult to adjust for regular PolyAT response. I'll look into it for the next update.

Hmmm, what is this 'KeyP 2 Val' module of which you speak?
-john b.


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 Post subject: Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:22 pm 
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Hi John,

It's in the Control folder of the BC Modular pack.


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