what would you buy with ten grand buget?

Smix · Post by **Smix** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:47 am

Ive been given a ten grand buget to set up a studio im already a scope user and love the sound but can i get better i would like some input from
the planetz musicians on what would you buy with ten grand to set up a studio from scratch thanks in advance

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:57 am

Need lots more info.

How will the studio be used? What is it's primary purpose?

Live tracking? Will you need to be able to record real drums?

MIDI composition only?

Do you want to use a mixer as an input device? Do you prefer to mix in the software or do you like to use a external board? Or will everything be "in the box" type composing and mixing??

All of these things will affect the distribution of your budget.

I could spend half that money on room treatment depending on your space...the best monitors in the world will still sound bad in an acoustically inaccurate room.

Smix · Post by **Smix** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:16 am

ok the studio will be used for artist development recording vocals mostly no live drums at present just cubase seq samples ect im really interested what audio gear you would buy ie xcite uad2 scope cards protools deunde the buget is purly 4 hardware i know ten grand is not a lot in music gear thats why i would like 2 hear your advice again thanks

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:36 am

So the budget does not include a computer and software, just external hardware? What about monitors?

Are we just talking about a microphone or two, a quality pre-amp, and AD/DA convertor?

From what I understand about the Xcite/Scope 5 preliminary pricing that will take the better part of your $10,000.00 budget.

Would I recommend using Xcite/Scope over anything else on the market? Yes. Absolutely. No question.

Unless you need it right now and can't wait for the actual product to be released.

Smix · Post by **Smix** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:50 am

no i dont need it right away i aready have a 15 chip scope setup, rode nt1 nt2 mikes focusrite voicemaster preamp that sound great and all the software i need. the setup is for a seperate project

Smix · Post by **Smix** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:52 am

and im in uk so £10000

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:58 am

If i had ten grand i would definitely get XITE-1 over anything else. Then i would divvy the rest of the budget on:

Decent pre-amp - maybe the modelling (Sharc again) Focusrite Liquid 4Pre, gives you a range of classic preamps so you don't have to commit to just one sound.

Decent capacitor mikes - yes you could blow three grand just on one decent mic, but why not get a few in the £500 to £1000 range (hell get some SM-58s, the more mics the merrier).

Decent amps and speakers - something like a Bryston 4B and Some PMC MB-1s come to mind.

A Power Mac to run it all from, probably just with Logic Pro 8 as i'm not a big ProTools fan, although you may need it to get the clients in (then actually use the XITE-1 all the time

).

A reasonable range of acoustic treatment.

i think i just went over budget, and i haven't included reverb yet, sound booth, headphones, cabling etc.

Mind you that's what i would do, but i don't know your real needs.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:24 am

Smix, it would help if you described in more detail the scale of this 'separate project'. IE- Is the budget for building a complete home studio or is it a commercial venture in rented premises? What sort of size space are you talking about? What type of equipment do you actually need? If you could try to tell us even roughly what type of hardware you think you might need, then it would make it easy for people here to give you their opinions about specific makes & models you could look at within your budget. Some more detailed info about this planned 'artist development' and 'mainly vocal recording' would also be helpful. How many artists or vocalists (max) will be getting recorded at the one time? There's a big difference between setting up recording facilities for one vocalist at a time & setting up something for recording groups of vocalists. Again you really need to provide much more information to get quality advise in return.

greenbluegold · Post by **greenbluegold** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:44 pm

excuse me for pricing in dollars, I'm in the States ($10,000 GBP = 15890 US$)

Since you have a PC, a scope pro, and I assume a midi controller of some sort

I'd suggest...

Sanken CU-41 microphone 3,300.00
Blue sky Pro Desk monitors 1300
Flexor 3 300
sytek mpx4 pre-amp 900
Eventide Eclipse 1800
mpc1000 1000
analog modular synthesizer 5000

$13600

spend the rest on acoustic treatment for decent vocal booth

(you may think the rodes sound fine, but microphones are the most important part of the vocal chain after the sound leaves the lips -- you will never wish to part with the sanken I promise).

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:53 pm

I tend to agree w/ bluegreengold 100%.
I have never heard the Sanken mics but the philosophy is sound.
I have recently heard the Eclipse and it is an excellent choice. I have worked around Eventides for years and always enjoyed their precision and clarity. Our Bassist uses one for pitch shifting and chorus. When he hits his bypass switch it sounds so boring.

The Reverbs in Eclipse were very good which makes it a perfect solution for recording where multiple takes and rendering audio will be used.

I am a Scoper through and through but an XITE-1 seems to be a want rather than a need for your particular tasks.
But if you want to record in surround and use 96K it's pretty much going to be the box to beat.

I can vouge for the Eclipse though as a one stop hardware effect for recording where Multi FX are needed. It is the best all purpose hardware unit I have heard.
It is as good as having a Lexicon PCM91 and PCM81 together, and has an edge in the Modulation department but the 91 still has the verbs due to the Dual algorithims.
If you want the best reverb though, and money is no object. The Bricasti Model 7 is the box to beat.

Smix · Post by **Smix** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:02 pm

hey thanks for all your replies will be lookin at all the gear youve mentioned
the size of room is 16 ft long/12 ft w here is list of things im considering
exite or 3 scope cards a new mic (will be looking @greenbluegold's Sanken) a uad2 monitors new computer/which chipset p45 x38 x48 x58?

greenbluegold · Post by **greenbluegold** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:52 pm

If you're considering buying a $3k microphone, best also buy a top quality preamp that can keep up with it. My reasons for suggesting the Sanken and the sytek are because they both offer very clean hifi 'natural' sound. I won't say the sanken is without character -- but it's very natural and detailed. The sytek is very clean with a lot of headroom. If you'd like a full channel strip, you can often find stereo pairs of neotek channels rack mounted on ebay for a similar price as a new 4 channel mp4x (pre's only). There are other good preamps, but none which give you the same natural sound / price ratio.

You can always add character with post or parallel processing of the signal, but there is no way to make a recording 'more natural' afterwards. There are other top end vocal mics in similar price range as the Sanken -- Neumann TLM170, Microtech Gefells -- but I'm kinda in love with the Sanken line. Their engineering and is absolutely top notch, and they are a more innovative and unconventional in their designs rather than just updating mics from the 'golden age.'

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:10 pm

Again, wise words for mic innovations by Sanken.
I have been reading about them, and the source material being recorded for vocals should be as natural and hi-fi as possible, as long as that is your goal.

As far as a computer goes, Scope has never needed a powerful CPU, so stability should be paramount.
3 x Scope cards is sound, but personally I am waiting for my XITE-1 because of the powerful DSP's for synths and mixing.
5.1 & 96K recording and playback are also important.
A good racked up DAW is in the purchasing threads as we speak.
It has the DFI P35 which is the best board for that chipset IMHO.
I have the Intel P35 which is a very stable workhorse.
DDRII RAM and the E8000 series of CPU's are very cheap.
Having an unproven chipset is not a wise move right now.
Besides if you have any troubles, many guys here use the E8000's and P35's already. Help would be fast and free, especially for anyone noble enough to buy an XITE-1.

Do let us know what you end up buying for mic's and mic pre's, as well as Scope stuff.
I believe if you are wise enough to Scope stuff, you will be quite wise w/ your other selections.

Happy Hunting.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:09 pm

If you're on a 10 grand budget & need to practically build a whole mini studio which would include (at the very least) a PC, DSP card/s or box/rack, AD/DA converter?, monitor speakers, mic, mic pre, headphones, headphone amp, you're definitely going to need to make some (perhaps tough) decisions regarding buying 'top of the line' equipment. The problem is, where do you sacrifice? There's no point in spending top dollar on certain input stage equipment if the next stage down your chain isn't of equal quality. In other words, I think you'd be mad to spend 3 grand on a mic & mic pre if you don't have a top quality AD/DA converter, high spec PC & software, top notch monitor speakers, high quality headphone monitor amp, at least 2 x top quality monitor headphones.... The list really does go on & if you want to make it worthwhile spending thousands on a part of the chain, you really need to spend it on the whole chain, which would obviously take you over budget.

So, what to do?
Answer (IMO):- Sacrifice having 'the best' in one or two areas with the rest of your gear letting it down in the rest of the chain & concentrate on 1. Buying your essential system components (computer, DSP card/s or box & AD/DA stage?), then 2. Buying the best you can afford with the rest of your budget.

just my 2 farthings.

Mark

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:18 pm

Btw, don't forget that your top quality gear would be let down without top quality cables & that you'll need speaker stands, a mic stand & other peripheral items as well.

Mark

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:22 am

a great microphone is useless without a well insulated room with decent acoustics.....
I have an expensive valve mic, but when not in the studio, it is hard to use in good conditions and you have to do tricks to get a good sound (which often means changing the performance itlsef: for ex, record close to microphoine so the levels are way higher than background noise.... not ideal situation at all because you won't record what you want, but will have to record what you can.

An already made vocal booth (where one can also put guitar/bass amps) can go from 1500/2000 € to 3/4 000 euros. (that's why most people do them themselves).

You can use a mic in a normal bedroom, but you might get noises from all around, and even if the noise is low, it still defeat the purpose of buying a 3000$ microphone (i don't think it is necessary for a start, you will get expensive microphones when you make money with the studio). it also depends on your own place and what quality they want to achieve (those who gave you the money).
I have used many mics in studios, neuman are of course a reference, but other brands are great perfomers. Audio Technica has great all puprose mics such as the AT4040 which is great also on vocals ( i have a recording if interested). There are many many other at 1000 or less. If it was me, i wouldn't spend more than 1500 (euros !) on mic+preamp (or may be 2000/2500 if several mics), which is already a better than good start, and that can give you more budget for room treatment which can be expensive even if you do it yourself (another problem is that most studio have different mics for different applications....).

Good speakers too

That's one of the main problem: sound in and sound out (mic/speakers/acoustic) should be thought of all together in the budget, the rest is less crucial (like, the machines you get, it is a different item of the budget and totally up to each and everyone... contrary to acoustic tretment (which is highly recommended not only for recording, but also (even more maybe) for mixing)...

greenbluegold · Post by **greenbluegold** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:05 am

[quote]

Post subject: Re: what would you buy with ten grand buget? Reply with quote
a great microphone is useless without a well insulated room with decent acoustics.....
I have an expensive valve mic, but when not in the studio, it is hard to use in good conditions and you have to do tricks to get a good sound (which often means changing the performance itlsef: for ex, record close to microphoine so the levels are way higher than background noise.... not ideal situation at all because you won't record what you want, but will have to record what you can.[/quote]

This is the conventional wisdom -- but I think it is a bit misleading for several reasons.

1) Appropriate mic placement and choice the pickup pattern of the microphone of the microphone can make top quality results possible in a less than ideal room, and I think the differences in sound quality from mic choice can overbalance the limitations of the rooms acoustics, especially for close mic ing. I wouldn'tsuggesti one records in omni from 30 ft in a bad room, but I don't think that would be a likely situation.

2) Rooms can be treated DIY to clean up most problem spots for a few hundred dollars.

3) If in fact it is to be a bedroom recording environment (which I don't suspect it is) acoustic treatment becomes even less of an issue as furniture and other typical bedroom components usually do a pretty nice job at breaking up frequency nodes and other problem acoustics.

As for audio technica mics -- they are certainly offer good performance for price, I have a couple of them, but I doubt they'd perform dramatically 'better' than the Rode N2 -- although they may be more suitable for certain applications according to taste.

However, a Sanken CU41 will sound fantastic on most anything, is a cardioid with very little proximity effect and so would be an excellent choice for recording just about any source in a reasonable room.

As for little noises ruining a recording, that is I guess a matter of philosophy. I'd much rather have very high quality recording of a source that sounds pleasing to me with a few background sounds picked up along with it due to the microphones sensitivity, than to work with a recording that is phase canceled or muffled or insensitive enough to obscure small sounds. But keeping a room quiet in is not the greatest challenge facing someone setting up a studio.

If you have one or two pro quality microphones and a pro quality preamp, a decent room and enough sound making toys to put together a backing track that you like then you can operate a professional studio. If you can put together a professional setup for less than your budget 10,000 pounds, why would you want to cut corners?

Here are some links to articles by/about Steve Levine (another sanken enthusiast) on recording vocal pop in small studios. --

[url]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_ar ... evine.html[/url]
[url]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec98/a ... ks.147.htm[/url]

greenbluegold · Post by **greenbluegold** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:09 am

[quote="Shroomz~>"]Btw, don't forget that your top quality gear would be let down without top quality cables

Mark[/quote]

Perhaps you're trying to make a joke, but I'll just mention that you should probably be making your own cables. Mogami and Canare cabling by the foot and canare or neutrik plugs. It's a drag to use poorly manufactured/ cheaply sourced cables.

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:10 am

Still ,Mehdi has a point. i mean blowing a third of your budget just on the mic seems ludicrous. If a £1000 mic doesn't sound good then the manufacturer needs shooting. If i was going to spend £3000 on a mic i would expect a blow job thrown in.

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:12 am

greenbluegold wrote:
Perhaps you're trying to make a joke, but I'll just mention that you should probably be making your own cables. Mogami and Canare cabling by the foot and canare or neutrik plugs. It's a drag to use poorly manufactured/ cheaply sourced cables.

It's also a drag making your own cables. Life's too short frankly. Mind you if he's getting proper patchbays etc. he'll probably hire a wireman for a couple of days.