I think its a bit to much for us to ask for a new sort of board (firewire/usb2)
Me I own now six CW boards and unless I"m misunderstanding it would mean replacing them.
That's why I propose an external box that could run on USB 2.0/Firewire but allow you to insert your current boards. That way you don't have to give up your current investment in Creamware boards.
Of course, with USB and Firewire you are going to lose some of the bandwidth that you would get with PCI, but it may be worth it if it can make the system overall more portable and easier to use with multiple systems. Not to mention, more marketable to new users.
The other option is a CardBus expansion like Magma, but specifically designed and optimized for the Pulsar boards (and hopefully a little more economical).
Like the Magma box, it could have an option to pluging into both a CardBus and PCI interface so you can use it with both a laptop and your desktop.
I would have to agree with Terranova that my worry about a new usb/firewire solution would be that my old CW cards wont function anymore with the new software. IMHO this is what has made CW cards fantastic to own since the Pulsar 1. You could just buy extra cards or SRBs, and your original investment still worked along-side your new cards. You get hooked on wanting more DSP pretty easily
I think making the DP software more available is also a great idea.
As for marketing and sales, I find I know more about the products I want to buy than the average sales guy anyway. What I also found was that there is too big a premium to buy from a music shop here in the UK. The price in the UK shops for a Pulsar 2 is almost £250 more than in Germany! Take that £250 away and I'm sure it makes it attractive to a lot more people. Maybe CW could sell direct over the internet to save costs?
Now that CW is reloaded, hopefully they can finally reload the STS sampler range
On 2004-01-31 14:54, John Cooper wrote:
The SDK has never been released to developers... Only DP. The SDK allows you to create things, in a higher level language (sortof Java-like), e.g. sequencers, etc, that you can't do just with SHARC dsp code.
So yes, you could create new atoms using the SDK...
Tnx for correcting me, John that's indeed a different level
I'd second this approach, but just to put it in the proper frame:
for many it's difficult to setup a device in Modular, which can be considered a 'high-level' DP
John Bowen expects a couple of months to only strip down an existing synth built with regular DP
Adern needed quite an amount of time to get Flexor out, which reconnects existing atoms in a new way
so it must be a pretty tough challenge, even with this great environement.
On 2004-01-31 09:55, marcuspocus wrote:
Nah, Firewire/USB2 is the way. Look at Powercore firewire, Digidesign 002, Mackie spike (which also use sharcs), Edirol, M-Audio. They all moving toward firewire/usb2. I bought a tascam fw-1884 lately, because it work with mac,PC, even laptop, and standalone.
...
I strongly vote for Firewire2/USB2. That's the way of the future.
Marc
With the exception of the Powercore those are all junk comparitively. And the powercore is just an effects processor. To my knowledge it doesn't process ASIO tracks, it's just a firewire bussing system --oh and they've got "1" synth.
From DigiDesigns website:
Producing most digital audio requires immense amounts of power — in most cases, much more than even today's most advanced personal computers are capable of handling all alone. What sets Pro Tools apart from other audio workstations is the fact that it delivers all the dedicated power needed via PCI cards that reside inside your computer. The DSP (Digital Signal Processing) chips inhabiting these PCI cards are precisely what make this possible, empowering you to produce efficiently without interrupting the creative flow. This is the single most important distinguishing factor that places Pro Tools TDM far ahead of the competition.
I think CWA should wait out PCI-Express and release new cards then. Isn't PCI-Express going to be MAC compatible?
Also, on the MAC issue... if there were an OSX version of SFP I would've bought a Powerbook and not my Centrino (which I love).
IF they were able to build new PCI-Express Cards with on-board memory, then I could see a Firewire/USB chassis being a cool option. But I think this would be better negotiated as a cross-licensing between CWA and Magma who've already been doing this for a while. BTW... notice that Magma haven't been making any Firewire adaptors?
Could it be that PCMCIA already has better bandwidth and you still lose a lot of of the cards scaling capabilities? As a Magma user I can safely say that you can only use the card PCI-busswise up to 24 ASIO tracks and a few reverbs. Is firewire2 better than PCMCIA in terms of bandwidth and throughput? I'm not sure that it is... PERHAPS using better SHARCS with onboard memory can solve that as there would be less strain on the buss, but we're obviously not there quite yet.
My $.02,
Sam
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2004-01-31 20:47 ]</font>
I am not an expert in this matter, but I can understand that Firewire/USB 2 are good options, so I vote for them too.
***
Freeing the SDK it’s a wild idea! There are many out there with the time and the wish of taking advantage of something like this… this will incline many more creative people into the platform, I can easily imagine a great revolution and much noise in the media. For instance, in the Computer Music magazine, so important today for computer-audio-card buyers, you can count you’ll get an important note. In fact, I got to know you better in a review done by them.
It is true that SFP it’s a quite demanding platform in terms of learning, and it is not easy to market it, but there are “all sorts” in this life… If everybody will go for the same “client” nobody will sell a thing… I think that CW, today CWA, has reached a bunch of technology hungry kind of people, people with real great appetite for high technology and creativity. There are many musicians that will never get involved into anything more complicated than pushing a bottom for switching on their recording machine… In fact, even if they can afford it, they prefer go get their music recorded in a studio and that’s it, period. Nevertheless, not everybody wants just this; there are people whishing to get “profoundly” involved in the technological growing process becoming much more creative, even if this is achieved through a hard learning curve. For me personably, the learning curve with SFP with all its possibilities and extreme flexibility has been one of the MAIN reasons to love it so much. Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t like complicated things, I like BIG possibilities and extreme flexibility which have a price: they are a bit difficult to get the “how-to”. I have Pulsar right now in my “new” computer, in front of me, and after many years of usage I amazingly still have things to learn… and some flexibility options to go through that I never tried yet…, THIS is exactly what I want! After 6 years, I still am at the forefront of DAWs possibilities… So, good things, even if they are more difficult, are preferred for a specialized market, but the world is big enough for this market to be wide enough for you to be always there.
The idea of having “many” free plugging to download has always been a mayor incentive for musicians to get into a particular platform, like VST for instance. There is no doubt, the free stuff generated by hundreds of developers, have brought VST to where it is today. Think of interesting, amusing and unusual plug-ins as Delay-Lama, who’s going to ever do it for selling?
When I showed a friend of mine Pulsar, a few years ago, this Irish man could not believe what I could do with Pulsar. I took about 5 hours to explain him the concept while we did a little song. He recognized it was very difficult to learn it, but went out of my home, he went to the shop and got a Luna Card! He wrote me saying something similar to this, I don’t remember exactly, sorry: “Thanks very much for showing me Pulsar, I’ve got a Luna myself and is the best thing I’ve ever done for my music”.
Talking to him later, he told me that one of the main reasons to get a Creamware Card was the amazing amount of free plug-in you could download from the net, and their high quality.
The fact that SDK reaches the hands of everyone wishing to create new devices will bring up some seriously innovative devices because it will change the “reason” for which most developers build devices... As we all know, few developer works without the goal of earning a living, everybody wants to sell their devices, as it is perfectly natural of course, it’s their job. Now, if people could get involved in creating devices with no economical purpose, we may come up with absolutely unusual instruments, effects and utilities that would revolutionize the platform.
Something is sure… hardware is very important, but software is MORE important that hardware today… Long ago, hardware was the ONLY solution, but today there are many different possibilities for getting a good sound, and this is why software is becoming more and more important. Nevertheless, of course DSP power IS still a big advantage, as we know it today, I’m sure new DSP cards will be created in the future, with much more power so this concept will be always up to date.
If software IS more important than hardware, let there be some more software! This will create much excitement. We all could contribute here, in the Z, promoting all those devices, uploading pictures and explanations about them, doing some little demos for people to get to know them, write to magazines, etc., this will bring many people to the forum and will increase the interest of some serious developers as well, that will look to the platform as a way of selling their products.
***
The market is full, awfully full of products that do the same thing… it is more difficult than ever before, to chose a sound card for a first time buyer… there are far to many options and they all offer, in different ways and with different technologies, the same features. This is a problem. The only way to stay put firmly in business in regard to other manufacturers, is to do something MUCH better for the same price that do the same thing. Unfortunately, this is very difficult. But, there is still an open door, a big door: innovation. Innovation is cheaper in a way, but harder to come with, because it needs much time and much, much work from the developers.
Something is clear to me, Creamware Audio products MUST continue to be top of the range. You are covering a specialized market, difficult to convince and you have already done it with us, I guess that most of us are experienced musician that are exigent with audio quality. Perhaps businessmen around you don’t trust you very much, because of your recent insolvency problem, but they are just part of the game… Then we come into play: musicians, composers, engineers, etc., and the quality of your products got us tight. I think you should always keep it up, being a business for a specialized group of people.
***
Wishes:
* I would like to see one day, Pulsar III coming up with extreme DSP power. As powerful as those 4 sharks were when Pulsar I was first released, in relation with a Pentium III 350 in 1998.
1. USB 2.0/Firewire would be super cool. Just make sure it is easy to switch between systems, so we can use recording DAW at home and take the pulsar out with a laptop.
2. Open source SDK is a phenomenal idea!
3. whatever next gen DSP you use, please beef it up, as just my prefered routing/mixer/ASIO recording and monitoring environment in SFP uses 3-4 DSPs. I have 2 cards now, and seriously need more! Why not use power PC chips or something? I would like a pulsar loaded with 1.4 gigHZ G4's...
oh yeah, and if/when you get around to osX SFP, please seriously consider Linux. Shouldn't be too different from osX's brand of unix. Many of us would be delighted to escape from the evil empire!
(and BTW, http://www.gentoo.org is a super awesome LINUX distro that allows you to compile all components optimized specifically for your individual system... It rocks, and is amazingly FAST!)
It was just all a matter of time. Although I haven't been focusing on the music techology aspect lately, I'm very happy that CW is back in action and hopefully with a vengeance!
On 2004-01-31 09:15, CW Frank wrote:
* But the fact is that SFP is so amazing that it simply can no longer go unnoticed.
Marketing SFP is extremely hard as we found again and again. It is not mainstream and it follows a rather complex idea. It requires experience (problem awareness) to really be understood. Try to explain SFP in your simplest words to the average Guitar Center employee - he will have no clue what you are talking about. Just by what it IS it has a niche profile. Try to build a US marketing campaign ("short attention span" compatible) on this basis - good luck! Ideas and help are much appreciated, really....
Well the best idea I can give you (since I am in the marketing / commercial advertisement business) is by getting a decent website as soon as possible.
This "average Guitar Center employee" might not understand creamware's concept, but you can show it to him in a nice helpfull presentation.
I am serious about this. The way creamware presents themself on the Net is just horrible. It should be an informatic and fun place to be on, a decent resource for musicians and sales people. If you manage to get the "niche" geek glow of your website, sales people will be more understandable to your products.
Also speeding up your website will be a good thing. i mean when i do a request from the netherlands my browser lookup went trought dallas back to paris (typical level3 bad config).
All the best to creamware. the product is amazing, but marketing at this moment could be much better.
On 2004-01-31 19:49, astroman wrote:
Adern needed quite an amount of time to get Flexor out, which reconnects existing atoms in a new way
I don't think Flexor used any existing atoms at all? At least that's what I get from the intro bit on their site:
FleXor is based on a purist programming approach for the Creamware DSP cards. We use the most basic and simple components as possible. Even when designing a filter or an oscillator, we build it from scratch, only with the simplest components, such as Buffers, Adders, Dividers, Multipliers, and so on. The resulting module is a new design, which has a characteristic sound of its own and is not a replica of previously existing modules.
But maybe I'm thinking of atoms the wrong way?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2004-02-01 08:08 ]</font>
SFP:
I would like to see SFP 3.1c being upgraded and corrected for the old reported bugs, like 4896 mixers etc.. New asio 2.3 drivers to be compatible with SX 2.0 and get the most out of it. Sometimes I loose samplerate between boards, this is a common error with mutiple boards. The 2448 is my main mixer, but I want to use it as a real mixer controlling the faders and buttons from a controller like the mackie control, When wil this happen.
Hardware:
I would like to see new soundcards based on the new analogue devices DSP's. I think this would allow Creamware to design cards with more processing power and not as big anymore as the 15 dsp's card. I have some difficulties fitting these things in the new cases. So probably creamware could even desgin cards which would also fit in the new G5, would be welcome for some Mac users.
I would like to see the whippcable which is used for the analogue and midi connections, fitted in a 1HE chassis so we could fit this in the rack (above the DAW). It would provide better acces and would be more durable.
PCI-x, USB2, Firewire2:
I need bandwidth, it is no use to have great DSP baords but not able to make 100% use of it because of limited bandwidth. USB2 and Firewire 2 are great solutions for persons who wants to be portable. I have build my system in a rackmount case, one of the reasons for me to switch to creamware save space and therefore build a computer with would house harddisks, soundcards. This setup saves me alot of space and only requires 4HE of rackmount computer case. I can take this baby any where I want fitted in a SKB case, so I am portable as hell. And if creamware is developing soundcards with new analogou devices DSP's this will mean more proces power on smaller cards, eg if you used to use 2x 15 DSP scope boards, maybe with the new DSP's you will only need 6-10 DSP for the same process power. This for sure will need more bandwidth to use als this power efficiently and to the maximum. As for the comment of USB2 and firewire being the standard communication portocols for the future, I doubt this USB and Firewire can be comapred with the old standards like com and parallel ports. They are replacing those and not PCI. You will always need PCI ports and since the applications are becoming moore demanding in the future more bandwidth will be needed thats why PCI-X is needed. I think for starters and persons who do not demand lot of processing USB2 and Firewire2 are good solutions. My vote is for PCI-X solution, as we need more bandwidht. As the aspect of PCI-X not being used right now, well maybe somebody has to contact a motherboard manufacturer (Intel, Asus) and Microsoft and talk about these options.
Plugins:
If the STS could handle more formats, Halion, EXS etc it would be terrific. The user interface could be better, maybe it is possible to have a survey among users what user interface changes they would like to see.
I would like to have mixer automation for the 2448 and 4896 mixers, really miss this feature and do not want to do this with cubase cause I use primary the Vdat as recording tool.
Vdat, would like to see the positing be improvement, I would like to be able to directly typ in the position just like with cubase and logic. A midi in would be welcome on the VRC to control this with a sequencer or easier ways to control vdat recording with the sequencer and vice versa.
Other suggestions:
The computer hardware gives a lot of issues, I think it could be eliminated if we could work toghether with manufacturers of cases, motherboards, operating systems to find and implement powerfull solutions.
For example PCI-X, I think more parties would benefit from the implementation of it but the only risk is that in the beginning the widly needed support will be missing cause if it is there than maybe the OS does not support it or vice versa or the soundcards are not equipped for it. It is only a matter of getting these stakeholders to work together and to first take steps adn let know that somebody is interested. The same counts for computer cases and cooling issues. I heard that in 2004 the motherboard manufacturers will issue BTX boards, did you gave thought about these changes.
As a new company you have the chance now to look ahead and take decisions which will put you steps ahead before your competitors. Unfortunately your business is so much linked with technology that it will require some attentions to these new developments all the time.
I bought my first card in 2000 a pulsar 2, but was soon frustrated because the dealer did not had the knowledge to advise me on how to use this system appropriatly. It took a lot of energy to get to know this and I must say the manuals of creamware back than were not that detailed. Fortunately the vistes on the forums and support helped me and now I understand how to setup a pc to run SFP withhout problems and how to use certains devices like Vdat. To attract new customers it would be simple if creamware could have a reference how to setup your computer on their websites, cause that will help users and dealers to see how so setup a pc. Some manuals have to be updated and more detail for operating should be added. For the devices a troubleshoot page would be helpful.
I think the biggest gain will be if creamware is able to do as the marketing is advertising. The biggest turn down have been for many that things are not working as pictured in advertisements or packaging or the manuals. This is a quality issue, go for a higher level.
I would not mind if you introduced somekind of membership fee, to guarantee that support will be open and fast servers are used. I hope that creamwares comeback will be strong and long but bad things alwys can happen. This got me thinking about why customers are expecting free upgrades support etc. O yes to some extend it is included in the price, but new upgraded requires programming and this needs people who are busy with that, These people have to pay for their living and beverages, so it is not logical to give free updates from a companies point of view. But this policy is only acceptable if the upgrades do not concern upgrades of bugs who should not have been there. But if you raise your quality level and make sure that before applications are issued are tested tested and tested there is no objection to pay for further updates involving compatiblity with new technology, devices and other developments.
Good luck with the new company and I know for sure we soon will see the fruits of this second chance.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jem on 2004-02-01 08:31 ]</font>
On 2004-01-31 19:49, astroman wrote:
Adern needed quite an amount of time to get Flexor out, which reconnects existing atoms in a new way
I don't think Flexor used any existing atoms at all? At least that's what I get from the intro bit on their site:
FleXor is based on a purist programming approach for the Creamware DSP cards. We use the most basic and simple components as possible. Even when designing a filter or an oscillator, we build it from scratch, only with the simplest components, such as Buffers, Adders, Dividers, Multipliers, and so on. The resulting module is a new design, which has a characteristic sound of its own and is not a replica of previously existing modules.
you're right - I got messed on the molecular scale.
It was exactly that quote from Adern I had in mind. My point was that no new DSP code was involved yet.
you're right - I got messed on the molecular scale. 