KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

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spacef
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

January 31st 2019

Added KrOn V - which looks exactly the same as KrOn - but without the 2 MS20 cv, only DSP and V/Oct (eurorack and modern synths, even Korg's new series). so it saves a lot of connections. presets are compatible between KrOn and KrOn V (at least from KrOn to KrOn V, and it should be also be ok from V to KrOn).

Various corrections/improvments/graphics in KrOn and CV synths.

Available with "KrOn max Pack" and "KrOn "not max".
https://spacef-devices.com/kron/kron-updates/

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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by yayajohn »

Great! Thanks can't wait to try it out.
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

Hi !

There are *.exe files available for KrOn and MAxPack, for xite and scope pci.
They are on SonciCore's FTP.
Have fun.
Mehdi
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

Magma CV has been corrected (VCA "non-drone" mode was not working, now corrected).
https://spacef-devices.com/news/magma-cv/
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Re: Re: Kron - CV modulator

Post by Spielraum »

spacef wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:14 pm Hi Ron,

I am very ignorant with Modular and BCM. I should make patches in fact...
Look at the pic below. It is not good like this ? You can control osc, filters etc.
Isn't it better to have KrOn outside? for presets? (i think modular and preset is not the best? last time i tried was in 2003 i think :-) )

KrOn to Modular Patch:
Kron-Modular.jpg
we will see...
the ingenious SC preset structure works very well separately in the modular shell (M2g3,M3,M4,BCM) for each module if you want!
In 2020 I will present some practical modules that use their own preset management
with MIDI or ASYNC PROGRAM CHANGE in the same modular container.
automation with mutual preset switching is no longer a problem!
not new, but not used in development ~ why? i don`t know...

Ps .:
Stay tuned for a Modular Shell Spielraum Edition 2020

8)
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

Makes me think I need to re-post my modular insert hosts.
They all had presets but they did not work great with insert slots. Worked fine with the parameters of the module itself though.

KrOn is great to have externally because you can save presets (or not) and use them with different things, and one can connect a modular to it too. I guess it could also be ported as a modular module but not sure this would be very useable (KrOn is big :-) )
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spielraum »

YES drop of bitterness, module "insert slot" parameters will unfortunately bind to the shell preset structure, you are right! otherwise the concept behaves as in the independent device. i'll keep playing around with what's going on...
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

UPDATE TIME (FINAL HOPEFULLY)
==========================================


KrON:
=====


-- Corrects all overlapping pop-up menus (pitch 1 & 2 selectors) that could go behind pots and menus of the bottom sections. Many of those were unoticed by me because of diffrerence between SDK, Scope 5, Scope 7 etc. Now fixed !!
-- Graphics: BPM section graphics corrected (KrOnSync button was hiding end of text, no text for external midi clock, now redesigned)
-- T1 & T2 added as modulators in the P1/P2 mixers but only in the third selector. Because not having them there was totally against KrOn's philosophy (especially when *not* using P1/P2 for quantized Pitch). Now corrected.
-- Dual KrOnSync Output: for better project organization, the KrOnSYnc output (Bpm Output Pad) is placed at the top and at the bottom of the device. It is the same pad, just allows to have better looking routing window.
-- KrOn loads with settings that make it easier to hear differences in various "play modes" (check the leds to see what notes it plays in the different modes ==> it won't do anything if you have the same notes repeating on all 4-steps sections, it is much more obvious on complex 32 step sequences: that way you should hear many differences).
--- Litterature: some tooltips were re-written (bpm section).

JunZ
====

-- Added LFO Sync, BPM, KrOnSync
-- Internal BPM display disappears when KrOn Sync is "On". KronSync button tells you to check tempo on KrOn (it is unfotunately not possible to display the KrOn's tempo on external devices, so you have to check on KrOn if you forget what is your tempo-and if you use KrOnSync you are using KrOn as the master tempo for all connected devices).
-- Changed color of tyhe audio input insert slot to grey for better visibility
-- Audio Input send to Ring is now taken Pre-Insert. This sounds better and allows to have the audio as Ring modulator while audio in level is at 0.
-- Drone mode button display should be corrected but presets might have to be resaved for correction to happen.
-- Better tooltips (audio in ring, KrOnSync section).

Magma
======

--- KrOnSync Inputs at the top and bottom of the device for better looking routing window.
--- Internal BPM display disappears when KrOn Sync is "On". KronSync button tells you to check tempo on KrOn.

Spirit
======

--- KrOnSync Inputs at the top and bottom of the device for better looking routing window.
--- Internal BPM display disappears when KrOn Sync is "On". KronSync button tells you to check tempo on KrOn.


Pictures below:
The dual in/out bpm pads work like all i/o of scope:
- it is possible to connect both outputs to different bpm inputs of different devices.
- it is not possible to connect 2 Bpm inputs at the same time. The device will not let you connect the second pad once one of them is connected ("cannot route / incompatible pads" error message = perfectly normal/logical behaviour)

- Error Message with nothing connected: it is normal that KrOn displays a "division by zero " message when you "Kron-Sync it" with no master Kron BPM plugged into the Bpm inputs. when nothing is plugged in, KrOn sees BPM=0 and cannot compute the actual tempo (0 in = 0 out = impossible tempo).


Many thanks to beta testers who helped a lot in making this update quickly available and as complete as possible...
Attachments
KRON-DUAL-SYNC-OUT.jpg
KRON-DUAL-SYNC-OUT.jpg (7.96 KiB) Viewed 14672 times
MAGMA-DDUAL-INS.jpg
MAGMA-DDUAL-INS.jpg (9.04 KiB) Viewed 14672 times
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

This seems great, almost only using CV now, both between daw<->scope and scope<->eurorack, and Kron package is just the kind of development I'm hoping to see more of on Scope!
Already got an Xite and Klangbau Röhren VCA this month, but on the top of my list for next purchase!

One question, do you think it is possible handle conversion between scope 'freq' signal and V/Oct and Hz/Oct?
As I understand KrOn sends either V/Oct or Hz/Oct, but cannot send 'freq'?
And the synths doesn't accept 'freq' signals, but does accept V/Oct?

It would of course be very nice to be able to use KrOn to sequence any modular patches and using the synths with existing pitch sequencers in scope.
Is it very difficult to handle that conversion, or is it something you do not see as useful?

My most wanted modules are 'Freq to V/Oct' and 'V/Oct to Freq', and I would be happy to spend some money and effort towards it, but have no SDK and very limited understanding of DSP programming.

But it would be really great to be able to use the built in CV instrument in Bitwig to control my modular patches instead of having to use SilentWay to handle the pitch mapping. And to control my eurorack with my existing sequencer in scope without roundtrip through SilentWay to handle pitch conversion, or sequence my scope modular directly from eurorack.
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

Hi Spindrift.
I am not sure what you mean by "freq" because KrOn manages all kind of CV/DSP/Native signals for Oscillators/ Filters / VCA / Resonance / Triggers / Gates etc.

You can also use Freq input of an LFO but I have not tried (I don't have LFO modules). KrOn has all the levels and gain and inverters you want so you could control the rate of an LFO. May be a Polarizer module in your eurorack can be useful to adjust signal the best way possible).

V/Oct / DSP/ Hz/V are simply "quantized tables of frequencies" in the Pitch Sequencers, that matches the tuning of oscillators (so you get notes in tune). But you can also use the Val Sequencers to get notes that are not perfectly in tune.

You can use KrOn with CV , with Scope Synths (that have modulation inputs), and even Native Modular synths such as VCV Rack or Volt (you will need to boost the signal by 12 dB).

The only thing I have not tried is to sync a CV synth to a fast Saw Down or Square LFO in order to find the right tempo.

If the above does not answer the question, could you give an example of a module with the "freq" input ? or an example of usage ?
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

With 'freq' I mean the type of signal used in any frequency input to a modular oscillator. Not sure what to call it since it doesn't seem to be any standard, just what scope uses for frequency.
If you try to automatically tune a scope osc with Bitwig CV Instrument or SilentWay it will fail, since the response is completely unexpected. But as you know there is a scale table that can be applied in SilentWay to make the scope oscs respond correctly.

So in essence what I'm wondering is if it is possible to make a module which does the same conversion as SilentWay does with the correct scale table applied?

Since you say that KrOn can handle both controlling Eurorack oscs and scope oscs I guess you already have built that functionality to convert "quantized tables of frequencies" between DSP and V/Oct?
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

well V/Oct and Digital tuning are not the same. See it as different as tuning a piano and a trumpet. it is all different.

with KrOn you will have no problem controlling both CV and DSP once connected to an Audio to CV hardware converter (soundcard with DC coupled outputs or ES-3 Adat to CV converter).

In CV, there is only 1 type of signal, which is voltage. "Freq" is just a name that shows what the incoming voltage is used for. It is the processors and electronic components that do the magic, and each module treat incoming voltage differently for pitch frequency, cutoff frequency, resonance amount, pwm modulation, vca modulation, LFO rate, Wavetable scanning, etc etc. Short signals can be used as gates and triggers. So you can also trigger and modulate Eurorack drums and samplers with KrOn.

You can't "convert" a V/Oct signal to DSP tuning if you want to keep the Pitch (frequency of the oscillators). For other modulations (filter cutoff, VCA...), you can simply boost the output of bitwig to get a signal that is useable in Scope.

You can use Scope Modular directly or through KrOn's Ext 1 / Ext 2 inputs , but it will not convert DSP pitch into CV Pitch. It simply sets the maximum values to get the right range as precisely as possible for the best result in external CV synths/racks. But as the "numbers" in CV and DSP do not corespond to the same note-tuning (pitch), then it will not convert a CV melody into a DSP one. It can be used as modulation only.

In KrOn you simply select if the pitch sequencer is V/Oct or DSP (or Hz/V). You can change between V/Oct and DSP in any sequence and the output is converted immediately to the right notes. So if you wrote a pattern for a DSP synth, you simply change it to V/Oct to control a cv synth or eurorack oscillator. You can also redo the pattern in another part of KrOn (using another 32 or 16 step sequencer of KrOn) and play CV and DSP at the same time.

For the Val sequencers, you can send them to CV and DSP at the same time (same physical output). Then you adjust the right amount in the destination module (a scope synth, or eurorack filter, CV amount, for example).

Well, I think that if you get KrOn that's the kind of questions that you will not ask yourself anymore ;-)


I repost this audio from another post : KrOn controls the "Freq" of 2 oscillators (V/Oct input=quantized to get right tuning) and the "Freq" of the Cutoff filter. It also modulates the Resonance Amount.




I hope it helps.
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

Thanks for clarifying!

Not sure though I understand completely when you say "You can't 'convert' a V/Oct signal to DSP tuning if you want to keep the Pitch". With SilentWay you can do just that. So for example if I want to use a Eurorack sequencer to control a scope modular I can go through SW Quantizer with the correct scaling table loaded and send that signal into scope to go directly into an oscillator.

I have an ES-3 and ES-6, and everything works perfectly, but there are many scenarios where it would be nice to save the roundtrip through the DAW into SilentWay and then into scope or vice versa.

With KrOn it seems I can spare that roundtrip if I'm using Kr0n, which is great! But say I want to sent it through Flexor Scale tuning before going to Eurorack, or to integrate other sequencers or synths. Are you saying that would be impossible to implement as a separate module?
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

if there is a value to convert then using volume fader between -12 and +12 dB. I suppose it can be done natively. If it is not automatic, then it is manual and you would need access to a scope card to tune the right numbers. It is probably only a matter of gain value. In Scope there is no point doing this because it would need to send values to Windows and back to scope with latency and possible imprecisions so it kind of kills the interest of it. Scope is even faster with CV than with scope synths.

I beleive I read somewhere that Expert sleepert adat to cv began after a suggestion from a Scope user in the mid 2000..... not sure where I read about it. may be they used a scope to check the conversion (or may be it is just math). I personnally have not found a pattern in the DSP to CV tuning. it has to be tuned manually.
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

Like I mentioned I don't know a lot about DSP development, so I might have got things wrong, but as I understand the problem:
Pitch CV is 1V/Oct, so each semitone is 1/12 V (0.08333...).
Or in digital, if we have a 16 bit signal and want 128 steps like midi note. 32768/128 gives a value of 256 per semitone. So for example we can say 0 is c0, 256 is c#0 and so on.

Silent Way allows you to map a multiplier for each of the 128 possible notes to either adjust range, correct for uneven response or create microtonal scales.
Looking at the scale tuning used with SilentWay below, in Scope it seems the values are exponential, and the range is someting like between 0 and 0.5. Silent way calibration data I have seen for normal CV V/Oct goes between -1.0 and 1.0 and is linear instead. I have experimented with patching in modular to adjust curve and range and it seemed like I was on the right track but was not able to get it to track over full range that way.

Code: Select all

Silent Way Calibration Data
version: 1
0 0.00036621 
1 0.00039673 
2 0.00041199 
3 0.00044250 
4 0.00047302 
5 0.00048828 
6 0.00051880 
7 0.00054932 
8 0.00059509 
9 0.00062561 
10 0.00065613 
11 0.00070190 
12 0.00074768 
13 0.00077820 
14 0.00083923 
15 0.00088501 
16 0.00093079 
17 0.00099182 
18 0.00105286 
19 0.00111389 
20 0.00117493 
21 0.00125122 
22 0.00132751 
23 0.00140381 
24 0.00148010 
25 0.00157166 
26 0.00166321 
27 0.00177002 
28 0.00186157 
29 0.00198364 
30 0.00209045 
31 0.00222778 
32 0.00234985 
33 0.00248718 
34 0.00263977 
35 0.00279236 
36 0.00296021 
37 0.00314331 
38 0.00332642 
39 0.00352478 
40 0.00373840 
41 0.00395203 
42 0.00419617 
43 0.00444031 
44 0.00471497 
45 0.00498962 
46 0.00527954 
47 0.00559998 
48 0.00593567 
49 0.00628662 
50 0.00665283 
51 0.00704956 
52 0.00747681 
53 0.00791931 
54 0.00839233 
55 0.00889587 
56 0.00941467 
57 0.00997925 
58 0.01057434
59 0.01119995
60 0.01187134
61 0.01257324
62 0.01332092
63 0.01411438
64 0.01495361
65 0.01583862
66 0.01678467
67 0.01777649
68 0.01882935
69 0.01995850
70 0.02114868
71 0.02239990
72 0.02372742
73 0.02514648
74 0.02664185
75 0.02821350
76 0.02989197
77 0.03167725
78 0.03355408
79 0.03555298
80 0.03767395
81 0.03990173
82 0.04228210
83 0.04479980
84 0.04745483
85 0.05027771
86 0.05326843
87 0.05644226
88 0.05979919
89 0.06335449
90 0.06712341
91 0.07110596
92 0.07533264
93 0.07981873
94 0.08456421
95 0.08959961
96 0.09492493
97 0.10057068
98 0.10655212
99 0.11288452
100 0.11959839
101 0.12670898
102 0.13423157
103 0.14222717
104 0.15068054
105 0.15963745
106 0.16912842
107 0.17918396
108 0.18983459
109 0.20112610
110 0.21308899
111 0.22575378
112 0.23918152
113 0.25340271
114 0.26847839
115 0.28443909
116 0.30136108
117 0.31927490
118 0.33825684
119 0.35836792
120 0.37968445
121 0.40226746
122 0.42617798
123 0.45152283
124 0.47837830
125 0.50682068
126 0.53695679
127 0.56887817
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

And the point of doing it in scope....basically right now there is a wall between my DAW, scope and eurorack when it comes to pitch. SilentWay can bridge it, but requires everything to go via DAW. KrOn can also bridge it, but only when I'm using KrOn it seems like.

A module that converts scope dsp pitch to CV and vice versa would mean I can:
1. Use any pitch CV source that can tune itself, such as Ableton/Bitwig CV Instrument, to control scope.
2. Use my custom scope sequencer to control my Eurorack, VCV rack or Grid in Bitwig.
3. Control scope modular with an external CV sequencer, be it Eurorack, VCV or Grid.

2 and 3 is possible using SilentWay, but currently requires that the signal goes via DAW, and 1 is not possible so have to always use SilentWay for pitch.
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

These values are not really relevant to scope. first the range would be 0 to 1. Secondly the values should be expressed as integers. What you imagine would simply not work efficiently mainly for reasons of latency. You could just try in scope with a simple mix or gain module to find the right values from silent ways to dsp or cv. You will probably end up with a device just like KrOn because that's the way it is best done :-) One thing that is personal tro me, is that I am done overthinking what machines can or cannot do. Each are good for a few things, so the game is to take adfvantage of the positive points, not try to go beyond it which is probably interesting intellectually, but inefficient musically, in my humble opinion...
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

Sorry if I'm being confused or unclear, but those are the values specifically for scope oscillators to work with SilentWay Voice Controller or Quantizer. How it relates to mapping of int values in the signal is speculation on my part, and I'm sure you understand it a lot better :)

So you are saying that doing that kind of mapping cannot be done inside scope for latency reasons? Latency is what I want to avoid since I depend on SilentWay to handle that conversion now. How doing the same thing inside scope could cause more latency is very confusing to me :\

The reason I'm interested in this is not at all intellectual. I just want a way to plug pitch CV into any freq input in scope for seamless and latency free integration between eurorack, scope and daw. I have several sequencers and patches I want to use, some in scope, some in daw and some in eurorack, and having to decide which to use with what based on pitch format used or having to route back and forth to DAW and SilentWay is not really ideal from a music creation flow perspective.

Anyway, sorry to derail this thread. It is clarified that Kr0n does handle this internally, and that is fantastic!
If you want to continue the discussion about a separate module that can do the conversion there is a thread in modules wishlist:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=36594
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

you can probably do it in scope but as a script running in sharcs rather than building a device.
the thing is that CV as DCV is limited to 3 octaves. That's why they use a 0 - 0.5 range and why you can't reach the full scope range by limmiting yourself to 0 - 0.5 range. if it could go to 1 i don't see reasons why it would not work.

in KrOn you don't convert CV to DSP, you choose your pitch sequencer to be either DSP or V/Oct. that's all about it.

It is also using sync modules and no async modules to take advantage of the sharc fast processing and not depend on windows which would induce extra in/out latency.

You are better off delaying a few tracks in your daw to sync everything. and it is much faster to do.
There are many other reasons why I would not even begin trying but may be someone else would be up for the task.
You can do microtuning in KrOn by adding pitch and val sequencers together and saving a preset to get your best settings back when needed.
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