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 Post subject: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:34 am 
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I noticed that running synths in 96 kHz mode sounded a bit better compared to 44,1 kHz.
Is there some plugins I should avoid when running Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode? I read that some of zargs synths use to many sat-connections like Solaris and maybe Pro One? Is there other synths and fx that I probably should avoid and maybe consider to get them for the pci-cards instead?


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:27 am 
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The stock vocoders, Zarg solaris\prowave, some newer Modular 4 patches will need to be removed from your folder cause they don't work properly at 96khz but many do. A few flexor patches don't sound right at 96khz but generally most are fine. GOST's Mattomat and Harmonic Effects bundle have trouble at 96khz, Orbitone vocoder also. I think SBC but not sure. I'm sure there are more devices that don't work but I can't think of them right now.

The Sonic Core synths that oversample such as Minimax, Profit 5, B2003 Organ, etc work but can have issues when increasing voices and are a little more fiddly at 96hz (if they stop responding to midi controller properly you need to then manually assign them to a dsp - you can remove assignment afterwards). They work but are more fiddly.

Unlike 44khz the 96khz requires a lot more manual assignments but it works. You generally can't use too many Asio channels and your projects shouldn't be too big at 96khz (But Fra77x has a thread showing how to use a lot of Asio channels here somewhere).

There are quite a few plugins and patches that don't work properly at 96khz but the good news is that SCOPE is a huge platform and thus there are many that do work. Most vocoders don't work but Celmo's vocoder DOES work. Celmo's and dNa plugins work pretty flawlessly on XITE-1 at 96khz (like they were made for XITE-1 at 96khz). Celmo's plus version of Blu-wave is a great synth to use on XITE-1. Modular 3 definitely sounds better at 96khz as well as Vectron, Poison, etc this was confirmed by SonicCore who also told me that synths that oversample such as Minimax DOES NOT sound better at 96khz but rather the same. So many plugins will benefit from 96khz but not all.


EDITED


Last edited by Sounddesigner on Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:47 am 
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The stock P100 reverb in the LX Reverb collection also does not work at 96khz.


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:10 am 
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Thanks for the quick answer.

So Zarg Pro-Wave doesn't work. Does Zarg Pro-One work?

I found this thread. I guess he's saying that positioning asio on dsp 10 might allow more channels.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33296&p=308811&hilit=asio+channels#p308811

I'll keep Celmo and dNa in mind when choosing plugins.

According to me there is a difference even on synths that oversample the filter like Minimax and Profit5. It's not as big as on other synths that doesn't oversample but there is still a difference, on some patches it's nearly imperceptible but on other patches its quite obvious.

Is there any reverb that you can recommend for Xite-1 that runs fine in 96 kHz? I already have lexicon software reverb bundle and a hardware behringer V-verb that I can connect to Xite-1 via aes. Maybe dNa tape reverb could be useful.

Maybe the best strategy is to create templates with the best synths and fx already connected and assigned in a good way to start from.


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:19 am 
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Sounddesigner wrote:
Zarg solaris\prowave,


Ive been using Zarg ProWave @96KHz on the XITE-1D in just about every project for the last year !


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:57 am 
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Mikael-R wrote:
Thanks for the quick answer.

So Zarg Pro-Wave doesn't work. Does Zarg Pro-One work?


I don't know about Pro-One. With me Solaris and Pro-wave could work but were too problematic and had me jumping threw too many whoops. In the end I found them not worth the time. Often once a project is bombarded with dialog box's due to errors the whole project can be ruined and those synths did this far too often. BUT Dante seems to have had success with Prowave so you'll need to try it yourself, you might have better success than me.


Mikael-R wrote:
I found this thread. I guess he's saying that positioning asio on dsp 10 might allow more channels.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33296&p=308811&hilit=asio+channels#p308811


That wasn't the thread I was referring to but still refers to what I was talking about. Fra77x knows how to use 96khz well.


Mikael-R wrote:
I'll keep Celmo and dNa in mind when choosing plugins.


They are some special developers. Definitely my favorite effects plugins come from them and both developers are great coders with regards to both sound-quality and efficiency. There plugins run well on my system.

Mikael-R wrote:
According to me there is a difference even on synths that oversample the filter like Minimax and Profit5. It's not as big as on other synths that doesn't oversample but there is still a difference, on some patches it's nearly imperceptible but on other patches its quite obvious.


Minimax doesn't just oversample the filters it has anti-alias oscillators as well. Since Minimax has anti-alias oscillators I'm sure others due to. I did not hear a difference between 96khz and 44khz BUT I'm not saying you are wrong either. Ultimately trusting your own ears is what's best since that is what you have to sculpt your music with. My test with the synths that oversample were not that long and comprehensive and thus I may have not created the senarios where the undesired artifacts could be heard. Ralf from Sonic Core might have missed something with those synths as well. I do know that with Modular 3, Vectron, etc I did notice the difference between 96khz vs 44khz and found it easily noticeable with them, and Sonic Core confirmed this. Modular at 96khz is divine and my favorite sounding synth algorithm and it stands up to and outshines anything out there IMV.


Mikael-R wrote:
Is there any reverb that you can recommend for Xite-1 that runs fine in 96 kHz? I already have lexicon software reverb bundle and a hardware behringer V-verb that I can connect to Xite-1 via aes. Maybe dNa tape reverb could be useful.


Celmo's Spring reverberator is a strangely overlooked gem IMV. One of the highlights of the SCOPE Platform IMB. I think it's the best sounding reverb on SCOPE and has no rival on any Platform. It's a more creative and fictional Reverb rather than a true-to-life natural-space reverb and does not have a gazillion parameter controls but it covers a wide range of different sounds and situations well. Can be made to have color but can get really transparent in a high-end way. It's unique sounding and worth a demo (Celmo's demos are hassle-free). Celmo has a huge collection of plugins by himself (about 40 plugins by himself), all of wich are not great but quite a few are true gems and I think Celmo may be the most underrated or overlooked developer of all time :o :-? . I really hope he starts developing for SCOPE again, if not that's a huge huge loss for us IMB.

The stock reverb by DAS wich is the RMX 160 emu is good. As long as the room size isn't too big it sounded good to my ears and it's stock so it's basicallu free. It runs at 96khz.


Mikael-R wrote:
Maybe the best strategy is to create templates with the best synths and fx already connected and assigned in a good way to start from.


It will be a trial-and-error process for sure.

EDITED


Last edited by Sounddesigner on Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:04 am, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:13 am 
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dante wrote:
Sounddesigner wrote:
Zarg solaris\prowave,


Ive been using Zarg ProWave @96KHz on the XITE-1D in just about every project for the last year !


That is surprising. It means that the OP may have success as well with Prowave and should definitely give it a shot. IIRC I had multiple problems with Solaris and Prowave and tho I could get them to work they were extremely problematic on my system so I gave up at the time, but may revisit them again due to your post. I miss them :-? ! I know one problem was even at the point of loading them there was a problem. I can't just launch them at 96khz in any normal way and will get a gazillion dialog box's if I don't do something unconventional to load them (this may be because they load with too many voices with default preset for 96khz where the size of a dsp is cut in half compared to 44khz). I had multiple problems but it's good to see that some people can use them when looking at your case. It could be that you have a different version number than me (I know Solaris 4 ran better than v5 on my system) or the XITE-1D may be more efficient in this situation or something else. Or maybe I need to try something else.


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:41 pm 
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Quote:
I don't know about Pro-One. With me Solaris and Pro-wave could work but were too problematic and had me jumping threw too many whoops. In the end I found them not worth the time. Often once a project is bombarded with dialog box's due to errors the whole project can be ruined and those synths did this far too often. BUT Dante seems to have had success with Prowave so you'll need to try it yourself, you might have better success than me.
I will ask for demos so I can try them. Are all three synths (Pro-One, Pro-Tone and Pro-Wave) emulations of Sequential Circuits Pro One? Is it correct that the problem is that the Zarg synths (Pro-Wave and Pro-One) uses a lot of switchable filters which makes the synths big? And the new dsp-chips doesn’t handle devices that are spread out a lot as well as the old pci-cards? Maybe the problem is that the newer chips have higher dsp-power to sat-connection ratio (just a thought).
One solution might be to make several Pro-Wave/Pro-Tone devices that only uses one filter each in order to decrease the size. Like one SEM Pro-Wave and one Moog Pro-Wave etc.
Quote:
That wasn't the thread I was referring to but still refers to what I was talking about. Fra77x knows how to use 96khz well.
This might be the thread you were referring to, he seems to have edited away his posts without explanation for some reason though. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32847
Quote:
Minimax doesn't just oversample the filters it has anti-alias oscillators as well. If Minimax has anti-alias oscillators I'm sure others due to.
Note taken
Quote:
I did not hear a difference between 96khz and 44khz BUT I'm not saying you are wrong either. Ultimately trusting your own ears is what's best since that is what you have to sculpt your music with. My test with the synths that oversample were not that long and comprehensive and thus I may have not created the senarios were the undesired artifacts could be heard. Ralf from Sonic Core might have missed something with those synths as well. I do know that with Modular 3, Vectron, etc I did notice the difference between 96khz vs 44khz and found it easily noticeable with them, and Sonic Core confirmed this. Modular at 96khz is divine and my favorite sounding synth algorithm and it stands up to and outshines anything out there IMV.
When I did some tests with Profit 5 and Minimax by browsing through presets and switching between samplerates I noticed difference especially on the more complex patches that probably used audio rate modulation and stuff like that. I’m not home now so I can’t give any examples. On very simple patches like the “Init” patches there were probably very little or no difference.
Quote:
Celmo's Spring reverberate is a strangely overlooked gem IMV. One of the highlights of the SCOPE Platform IMB. I think it's the best sounding reverb on SCOPE and has no rival on any Platform. It's a more a creative and fictional Reverb rather than a true-to-life natural-space reverb and does not have a gazillion parameter controls but it covers a wide range of different sounds and situations well. Can be made to have color but can get really transparent in a high-end way. It's unique sounding and worth a demo (Celmo's demos are hassle-free). Celmo has a huge collection of plugins by himself (about 40 plugins by himself), all of wich are not great but quite a few are true gems and I think Celmo may be the most underrated or overlooked developer of all time :o :-? . I really hope he starts developing for SCOPE again, if not that's a huge huge loss for us IMB.
The stock reverb by DAS wich is the RMX 160 emu is good. As long as the room size isn't too big it sounded good to my ears and it's stock so it's basicallu free. It runs at 96khz.
I found many interesting devices on Celmos website, I’ll for sure try them out later.
I have a theory to why they are overlooked: They aren’t for sale on Sonic-Core.net and the website does look very oldshool. I think it would be good for Sonic-Core if they put some more 3rd party developers on their site to make the platform appear larger. Now you have to dig in the forums in order to just know that they exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:40 pm 
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yes, all of the are Pro Ones, but they're modeled on different revs.
no, it's not complexity, necessarily, that is the problem.

for most users, 96k is a waste of time and resources. yes, things may sound a little better, but it's unlikely to affect the finished product much, if at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:12 pm 
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I guess it also depends on which music it is. If a lot of recorded sounds are used then it might not matter so much. But if it is electronic music based only on synths and you want a smooth and precise sound then I think the difference can easily be worth it based on my quick tests. Especially if you use devices that doesn't oversample.


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:23 pm 
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:)

whatever works best for you IS best.


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:08 pm 
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Sounddesigner wrote:
dante wrote:
Sounddesigner wrote:
Zarg solaris\prowave,


Ive been using Zarg ProWave @96KHz on the XITE-1D in just about every project for the last year !


That is surprising. It means that the OP may have success as well with Prowave and should definitely give it a shot. IIRC I had multiple problems with Solaris and Prowave and tho I could get them to work they were extremely problematic on my system so I gave up at the time, but may revisit them again due to your post. I miss them :-? !.


Well, I use the same presets at the same low polyphony all the time ... not surfing presets or anything.

Since DAS released MasterIT Lite that now leaves me the DSP headroom to run an extra voice or two poly on ProWave. I run the same 96Khz project basically every time I fire up Scope.

But I never had a problem on ProWave initial load.


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:28 am 
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So a workaround could be to create a template in Scope with Pro-Wave included from the start. Presets could be handled with a midi clone plugin, either in Scope or in the DAW as a VST. All controls of Pro-Wave needs to be assigned to CC's in SDK and saved as a device. I have thought of doing that for other reasons anyway. One problem is that the filter selection box can't be assigned to a CC. That should not be a huge problem though.


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:27 pm 
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Mikael-R wrote:
Are all three synths (Pro-One, Pro-Tone and Pro-Wave) emulations of Sequential Circuits Pro One?


Just only for the record:

SC ProTone and Zarg ProOne are emulations of the SCI Pro One monophonic analog synth,- but w/ advanced features compared to the hardware synth.

Zarg Prowave is the follow up of Zarg Prophet Plus.
Prophet Plus was the emulation of a SCI Prophet 5 synth, but w/ some advanced features already.
Prowave is a Prophet 5 emulation too, but w/ more and different advanced features.

Prowave comes w/ WAV-OSC and Waldorf Waveshapes in addition,- that´s where the name comes from.

You recognize Prophet-5 emulations by the "polymod" section which never was available in a Pro One, just because it was originally monophonic.
In fact "polymod" was exclusively in Prophet-5 synths, later copied in japanese polysynths and called "cross-modulation", but w/ somewhat different modulation sources and destinations,- thus different architecture in hardware.

:)

Bud


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:57 pm 
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Bud Weiser wrote:
Mikael-R wrote:
Are all three synths (Pro-One, Pro-Tone and Pro-Wave) emulations of Sequential Circuits Pro One?


Just only for the record:

SC ProTone and Zarg ProOne are emulations of the SCI Pro One monophonic analog synth,- but w/ advanced features compared to the hardware synth.

Zarg Prowave is the follow up of Zarg Prophet Plus.
Prophet Plus was the emulation of a SCI Prophet 5 synth, but w/ some advanced features already.
Prowave is a Prophet 5 emulation too, but w/ more and different advanced features.

Prowave comes w/ WAV-OSC and Waldorf Waveshapes in addition,- that´s where the name comes from.

You recognize Prophet-5 emulations by the "polymod" section which never was available in a Pro One, just because it was originally monophonic.
In fact "polymod" was exclusively in Prophet-5 synths, later copied in japanese polysynths and called "cross-modulation", but w/ somewhat different modulation sources and destinations,- thus different architecture in hardware.

:)

Bud


Ah, thank you for posting this! As I read through this thread, I was going to do the same at the end...

By the way, the term “PolyMod” is one I made up, and was a concept to get around the fact that I wanted to have 3 oscs (like the Mini) and a Mod EG on the Prophet 5, but Dave said no! (It would add to the cost of the unit, of course.) So, I proposed to him a way to use the second osc (Osc B) and filter EG as modulation sources, which also then required that Osc B have switches to not track the keyboard and put it in LFO frequency range, so it could function as either an LFO or audio rate mod source. The Prophet 5 without it would have been a lot less fun to program, and not so powerful...and since I was going to be creating the presets, well...there are just some things you must have to create the sounds in your head!


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 Post subject: Re: Which plugins should I avoid on Xite-1 in 96 kHz mode?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:57 pm 
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John, thanks for the history, and for (more than) "completing" the Prophet to your vision for those of us lucky to be on SCOPE!

...for those who dont yet know, with ProWave, we can add a third oscillator (by setting OSC-A as a dual oscillator using the Y module)


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