Modular Mixing

[ehasting]

what can people who drool after modular mixer but dont own it use??

[spacef]

I am not sure I understand but if I do, then I can say that;
- It is ok with me to make the Modular Mixer available again through Sonic Core. But for the moment they seem to be buzy with other things.
- I stopped selling it because it was basically built on Scope-PCI cards, and so is not optimized for Xite. and I cannot sell something I didn't even use myself
- But with the findings of JK and RP, it seems to be useable (apparently, by using modules of 12 channels maximum to be assigned on specific DSP, that you could sum up in a Stem-24 for 24 channels) and like that, it should allow to use a lot of insert effects in the mixer. But it is still being tested (thanks to JK Superstar !)

My own advice, if possible, is to be patient 2 or 3 more month, so I can have xite and redo what needs to be done (it will take time, but the modular mixer has been built with the xite update in mind, so I hope I planned it well and that it will be mainly a story of replacing a few internal modules by new ones... that way, the hard work is already done, it is not rebuilt "from scratch" and presets should be 100% compatible, if I planned/designed everything well ! .
But this is a project, nothing done, xite not at home yet.

If too impatient, mail me or SC directly, and we will see what happens (I have no news from them personnally).

[RP_001]

- But with the findings of JK and RP, it seems to be useable (apparently, by using modules of 12 channels maximum to be assigned on specific DSP, that you could sum up in a Stem-24 for 24 channels) and like that, it should allow to use a lot of insert effects in the mixer. But it is still being tested (thanks to JK Superstar !)

Yes, I got better results (it was pretty OK before, though) using the SL12 instead of the SL16. It seems the SL16 is a little too much when you need to turn on additional filters on the mixer later in the project (although, sometimes, i could load an additional insert fx for some reason). I now use 2x SL12 (HPF filters turned on on every channel) to an Stem24 routed to a MB7 (all channels routed in the sidechain before they go in the mixers). Each of the mixers assigned to a seperate dsp. Stem and sidechain on a seperate dsp, as well as the MB7. In the dsp meter it seems Ive got some headroom for insert fx as well. I will post a pic when I get in my studio again.

It will need some more testing of course. Especially because problems like 'sat connection errors' appear later in the project when some filters and fx are needed. It will cut out the sound when it reaches its limits, and you will need to restart scope again. But for now, it already seems to be more stable than before, so far so good

Thanks again JK, and Mehdi off course for your wonderfull creations!!

[ehasting]

I have set up my scope system with 24 analogue inputs and 8 digital inputs (total 16 channels coming from my mac, and the others are synths). I am now connected everything up to the STM2448 mixer.

But i would like a more flexible system for the effect routing, then i got a tips here on the board about using Direct outs form the mixer into a 247 stem-mixer where i could then create a flexible setup for my effect routing.

In that context i am wondering if the modular mixer will be available again sooner or later.
Also if there is a replacement for the stm2448 mixer, that will give me a more "direct access" user interface, i would be happy . the STM is a bit mouse fighter.

Rgs
Egil

[spacef]

It seems the SL16 is a little too much when you need to turn on additional filters on the mixer later in the project (although, sometimes, i could load an additional insert fx for some reason). I now use 2x SL12 (HPF filters turned on on every channel) to an Stem24 routed to a MB7 (all channels routed in the sidechain before they go in the mixers). Each of the mixers assigned to a seperate dsp. Stem and sidechain on a seperate dsp, as well as the MB7. In the dsp meter it seems Ive got some headroom for insert fx as well. I will post a pic when I get in my studio again.
!

The filter things could be linked to its automatic DSP on/off routing included in the filters, which is apparently not good for xite. It makes sense to replace the dsp on/off module by ones that are made for xite... (eventhough disapointing ) I might be wrong, that's what I have deducted from other threads about this or other devices. That will be something to try. Xite doesn't need dsp on/off for internal circuits the way scope pci did.

also, if someone is testing and has not been named by me, please excuse me, everyone deserves credits here

[jksuperstar]

I'll use this thread for debugging, since there is more than one person here looking into the Mod Mixer, especially on XITE.

When I place a SideChainer, a Router, and a STEM on 1 DSP, the Async % as at 28.6%. But if I move the STEM to another DSP by itself, it only has 7%, and the previous DSP with two devices now has 0.0%. If I put all three on three separate DSPs, I get 0.0% Async for all DSPs. Can someone explain what Async processing is? is it MIDI messages or event type messages instead of synchronous (audio) messages? Just curious how/why it adds up non-linearly.

[garyb]

async are connections to system resources like ram.

[spacef]

yes, and may be in this case it is connection from one dsp back to the same dsp and for this it is using ram or pci channels or something like that... or not

[garyb]

always best to hear it from someone with a clue...

[nomagic]

This is my basic test-setup (Win7 64bit). I use this when starting "empty" projects. It is a mix of old external hardware (synthesizer, effects), scope synthesizer and enough asio-channels for vst-plugins in cubase. By routing thru R124-Vu i can use some surround-sounds (not really comfortable with modular mixer, but enough to play with it).

Modular Mixer 32 channel

modmix.jpg (770.55 KiB) Viewed 2904 times

Unfortunately i cannot use too much insert-effects.
I get errors with more asio-channels (even destination) or when i load VDAT, so it is only good for stereo-mix and recording with cubase.

[jksuperstar]

Do you hand-place the modules on DSPs? You might be able to get more ASIO if you send no more than 16 channels to one S16 (that is placed on DSP 7-10), and the other ASIO to another channel device (which is placed on a different DSP, but still on 7-10). I prefer 12 channels per DSP, since it gives more room for inserts, and less stress on SAT Communications.

I have a 24 stereo channel mixer, with 7 stereo buses for mixing, and 7 AUX channels for effects. By using an 8S4H 12-channel module on each DSP, I can load every channel with an SC-EQ, enable all LP filters, and route the modulation LFOs to them. There's room for a couple Vincos or other effects. I have two of these (placed on DSPs 8-9), which then feed a 244 SideChainer, and two STEM247 all placed on DSP 12 (one STEM has all DSP Buses enabled for AUX, the other is selective for bus/group mixing, and all channels have the sidechain enabled). A Mix7 (DSP 16) takes buses from one STEM, and an MB7 (DSP 13) takes the buses from the other STEM (these are my AUX). DSP #17 is then used for reverb right now, but that might be better on DSP10, since it needs access to the host for delay memories.

That leaves me all of slot 7/11/15 and 10/14/18 for devices (synths, effects chain), and minimal routing to the adjacent slot.

My biggest problem right now is building a project 1/2 way, saving, reloading, and now DSP placement isn't always the same Luckily, I've rebuilt things enough times to get it all running in 5 minutes or less. Then I can add new devices at will.

[jksuperstar]

My biggest problem right now is building a project 1/2 way, saving, reloading, and now DSP placement isn't always the same

Somehow I've crossed a threshold that my projects worked when I created them, but SCOPE can't reload them ever again, since it doesn't use the same placement I gave it originally, and is always hitting DSP capacity limits, or some SAT overload. Fuck, there goes the idea of using SCOPE for mixing live anytime soon, I can't have this happen at a show.

[jksuperstar]

Maybe I can place everything in the SDK, and add all the DSP placements there. That'll take some time.

[dawman]

My needs for a live gig are much less.
I basically need a Master MIDI Controller for Scope DSP Devices and Kontakt 5.0.
Solaris has to be run at 48k as the sound is supreme.
But I load the big heavy effects externally and assign them where there is space on the main 7/8/9/10 chips.
I also have inserted effects to compliment the AUXILLERIES.
Fat-IIs x 2. DAS Legend, DAS Master It EQ.

THe project isn't complete yet as on the SE-1 and Solaris I would have 2 x RoyTs MIDI Effects Switcher, but since they will be installed externally, I have all of this extra DSP to assign the DSPs where I choose, and Scope reloads this and remembers it each time.

The Problem I have seen with any mixer that SC hasn't optimized, including their STM1632, is that the direct outs into ASIO Inputs becomes a problem, so I simply avoid all of that.
Check it out, take the STM 1632, assign 16 x ASIO ins to mixer, then see how many direct outs into ASIO that you get.
If you can get them all working they might have fixed this, and then I will upgrade to the latest version of the exe. for the XITE-1.
But I don't like being current, on my bills or software revisions...
FWIW Flu_Liq is super heavy DSP, but then again so is it's sound quality.

Untitled.png

[nomagic]

OK, i loaded ASIO1-Flt Source 64 and Dest 64 (activated 64 channels each), 4X STM1632X.
I thougt, devices with X at the end were optimized by SC?

While connecting the ASIO-Source to all STM-inputs i got the sat-error with the 4th STM.

Now i manually assigned the STMs to DSP 7,8,9,10.
After that i could connect all 64 ASIO Source and Dest to the 4xSTMs.

@jksuperstar: yes, i do hand-place the modules on DSPs.
I did not know that spreading ASIO over many DSP is better, thank your for this info. I will now start a new setup with modular mixer

[jksuperstar]

The ASIO actually happens through DSPs 1 & 2 (all hardware and software I/O is connected to these), and DSPs 7-10 have the most communication (SAT) to those I/O DSPs. So by placing whatever is connected to I/O on DSPs 7-10, you can avoid the SAT errors.

I know I'll get through my issues, sorry for the rant. Like I said I'll try getting the devices laid out, maybe in the SDK so that DSP info can be assigned. Then make some use of the DAS FX Rack for other devices, which allows DSP placement to be memorized. I am grokking that legacy devices don't remember their assignments in an XITE project. Maybe I'm just a little late to that game.

[nomagic]

In my old project i placed all modular-mixer-devices on dsp 7-10. My mistake was: all asio channels were routed to dsp 7.
Now - following your tips - i divided the ASIO-connection onto the dsp 7-10 with 16 channels on each.
XITE proudly presents: 64 channel ASIO into modular mixer, with 20 channels ASIO-Dest for recording via cubase!

XITE-project ASIO 64 modmix

Xite_Asio64_vers1.jpg (481.5 KiB) Viewed 2818 times

OK, it is not perfect - at the end i had to place many devices on dsp10, this could be a problem when adding effects in the future.
After saving and loading all modular devices seem to be on the same dsps (according to the DSP-Meter).
Now i can load some instruments:
- Six String, Vectron, Minimax (6 voices each), B-2003 (these don't remember the assigned dsp after loading).

Cool - who needs so many ASIO-Channels

[RP_001]

This is my project which worked pretty well for the last 2 weeks:

basic.JPG (197.31 KiB) Viewed 2810 times

1x 12SL connected to a sidechainer 12 ch both assigned to dsp 7
1x 12SL connected to a sidechainer 12 ch both assigned to dsp 8
247 Router assigned to dsp 9
MB7 assigned to dsp 10
Pro One and Prowave are on dsp 16 and 18

Filters on all channels are on.
I have the PCM91 inserted as AUX fx in the MB7. (i dont know if these internal connections have any influence on sat errors or other problems but I havent experienced any problems whatsoever)

I have inserted some fx in some of the mixer's insert channels occasionaly but I have to check further in the project how this will evaluate once adding more fx. When inserting an Echo 35 as an aux fx I get a large number of async (not in this picture). I also need to recall presets or reload the effect because it doesnt recall the presets.

Im pretty happy so far

[jksuperstar]

Here goes --

I've kept the mixer mostly in slots 2-3, so the rest is available to various synths & effects for base. Mix7 also has an RMX160 inserted, and MB7 has a few effects inserted as well.

[dawman]

DSP 1 & 2 are the actual ASIO and Hardware I/O's.
VDAT also works in 3 x 8 config on x64 if assigned to DSP2.

Its likt RP001 showed. Less ASIO inptuts to the destination module from an unoptimized Scope mixer the better.
I also learned that I can have many ASIO direct out from the STM2448 into ASIO Destination.
It's the only mixer that does this to my knowledge. It also allows major inserts through its routings.

My take is the Klaus Piehl left after a certain amount of optimizations were performed, and anything made since then is subject to limitations.
Just look at the meger DSP values displayed when using an STM2448 with 34 ASIO Ins and 50 ASIO Outs.
It's the only mixer that use such little values, and makes me believe that his tenure was limited and prioritiazed.
Even the 5.1 Room Reverb takes little DSP compared to the STWs as there is limited editing, but I can place several of them in an STM project and run w/o ER's and in Stereo and get great results.
We need someone to optimize the DSPs better, or re release a new Scope DSP platfotm like Bowen has on Solaris.
Old chips arent needed for communications there....
I am still quite a happy customer and the unit has paid itself off several times. It's sound quality reeks of dedicated RISC Processing, so no complaints. Just an observation.
Next time your buddy with a UAD Quad shows you his effects rack you will see what consistent optimiaztions really are capable of.
For example the Studer Tape Sim is realtime and can be used many times. Ever see Nebulae do that.......?
So DSPS are the way to go no doubt, but 3rd Party " Communication " at UAD seems to be a serious advantage.