Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

The Sonic Core XITE hardware platform for Scope

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Marzipan
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Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by Marzipan »

I saw the other thread regarding the German review, but have been unable to find any review in English. Why is this, hasn't the Xite been out for quite a while now? All I could find on the forum was an argument about the legality of translating/posting the review in question (would buy the magazine myself but I can't read enough German for it to be useful). It just seems to be difficult to find much information all in one place about this thing.

Sold my Scope Pro cards about a year ago, and was just considering coming back to the platform (moving to a new studio and have the opportunity to make some serious upgrades for the first time in a while). I miss some of the plugins, mainly the Zarg Music synths (all of which I would buy again if I did come back to Scope) and a few other things like SPL Transient Designer, and Adern Flexor.

I don't wanna sound TOO negative but I have to say after about 30 mins reading through the forums I've come to the conclusion I probably won't be re-investing in this platform, at least not right at the moment. It still seems to be painfully slow for any updates to appear... Was trying to find out when Mac OS X support would be added, but there is no indication that I could find. I think I remember reading over a year ago that it should be happening "soon"... Also it looks like there have been very few additions in terms of new plugins? Saw a few new things on the Sonic Core site, but nothing massively different, I was hoping to see a lot more progress given the new platform has so much potential.

Next, from what I've read not all plugins are optimized for the Xite, is there somewhere a list or which ones are and which aren't? (if not, why not?). I found the authorization process very annoying on the old system, especially when I had to reinstall the system, which I had to do a couple of times. I had a lot of 3rd party plugins and it was an absolute nightmare to re-install everything (more complicated than any other music software or hardware authorization I've used before). I may be wrong but from what I've read on the forum the authorization isn't much quicker or easier now. Another thing that really annoyed me with the old system was it being extremely buggy working at 96Khz, and a quick search on the forums reveals this hasn't changed (yet). Also just saw something on the Sonic Core website about the maximum cable length to connect it to a laptop with an express card slot is 1.8m?! At the very least that would be very annoying for me, if not completely unworkable (another small annoyance for me was only stereo AES/EBU, rather than an 8-channel interface, because I don't like ADAT/S-MUX, but that's more of a personal preference and I understand you can't get all I/O combinations on a single box).

To put it in perspective I invested in a brand new Kyma system around the same time I ditched my old Scope cards. It's definitely a completely different approach, more geared towards sound design, and requires a lot more time to get to grips with how the software works (Scope is a lot more "plug & play", with many modules requiring minimal tweaking to be immediately useful). So I think it's pointless to compare the systems directly, being obviously intended for different markets/uses. However in terms of support Symbolic Sound (Kyma) have been amazing. For a start the new Pacarana hardware was released within months of them announcing it (rather than more than a year delay after the promised release date!!). Since then there have been quite an insane amount of activity in terms of software updates and bug fixes, sometimes only a couple of weeks between updates (had a particular bug with my setup, which they fixed in less than a week of e-mailing). Having got used to that level of support I'm not sure if I can deal with waiting forever for updates which are promised but never delivered!!

Anyway I didn't intend this to be a rant, I was just seriously considering one of these boxes, but have been quite disappointed with the apparent lack of updates/new stuff having been away for over a year. I was hoping to check back in and see this new hardware had given the platform a new lease of life. I'm just not confident at all that this pattern is ever going to change, though I'll keep watching for updates and will be happy to be proven wrong... Yes it would be "nice" to get some of those synths/plugins back, but I just haven't seen enough to inspired me to part with the large amount of cash this thing costs. If it was a bit cheaper then I would definitely buy one.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by dawman »

I use it live and couldn't be happier.
But I also know it has flaws and development is slow.
But having KymaX will keep you busy until the XITE-1 becomes " perfect."
It's a one of a kind unit but isn't crucial unless you are doing gigs.
I think it's a luxury box for most folks.
Symbolic Sound is also somewhat slow in it's development but it has an incredible support appuratus and excellent maturity.
Carla Scarletti is the most humble, honest developer you will ever meet.
She can talk to us about an ARP2600S and we will end up just listening as she is brilliant.
Kyma w/ an XITE-1 would be the most awesome dream come true for me, but unfortunately the KymaX hardware is a dream right now until I can actually justify purchasing something I cannot use live.
I would love to have one though. I have been reading and studying JPJones methods for recording for years. He applys it like Autere did in a musical way.
Anyways, different needs for different scenarios.
But to dream of having both in a live rig gives me a great sense of power and mobility.

Cheers.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by spacef »

the max cable length ever tested with Xite-1 is 15 meters with a repeater (signal amplifier) and high quality hdmi cables. It is somewhere on this forum.
I've read somwhere you don't need a repeater under 10 meters. It is all a question of quality of the hdmi cable in the first place. I Suppose some shorther cables do need a repeater, others don't.
The 1.8 meters is the cable that comes with Xite (some people had shorter ones in the begining if i understand... it is all on this forum).
Last edited by spacef on Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by Sounddesigner »

The reason there is'nt reveiws for XITE probably has to do with Sonic Core not ready to advertise yet. XITE-1 is sellable but not ready to make full war on the market yet. It needs further development for that. XITE-1 and the scope platform is probably the most complex designed dsp platform around thus developing it takes time, the patience is and will be rewarded but if it hurts one too bad to wait then the platform is'nt really for you. The uad-2 took a long time to be released and that is a far more simpler platform. tc promised great things soon but no new plugins or dsp power for powercore only 64bit update, wich is a far simpler platform then scope.

You talk as if there has been little to no improvements for scope and actually there have been major ones.

1. Sonic Core has released new powerfull dsp hardware wich itself takes a longtime to do, just look at all other dsp platforms and see how long it takes for their dsp power upgrade. 2. There have been several software updates to scope released, also keep in mind one update is like two since Sonic Core is updating both pci and pcie simultaneously. 3. expresscard connector released, this is a huge accomplishment since it allows for alot of dsp power to connect to laptops. This is not easy to do, just ask UA and other companies.. 4. You say no major new plugins have been released recently but this is not true imo, Modular 4 is major in my eyes. Most other dsp platforms are only effects processors, synths are far more important to me and many like me. But even better is to be complete- having synths, samplers, effects, mixers, etc all on dedicated dsp's in realtime.

You say it takes too long to reinstall your scope plugins, for me it is far far quicker then Native platform since all i have to do is copy my scope folder from my harddrive to a dvd disk and when i reinstall scope simply paste the folder to my harddrive and all plugs install instantly.


As for Sonic Core's techsupport, it should be improved but also it is what it is.. I grew up pretty poor but looking back at my life i did not have what i wanted but i always had enough to make it, and the fact remains i'm here now alive and healthy. Likewise with Sonic Core's techsupport, it's enough to keep things going, there is also planetz. I generally get my questions answered by S|C and the support i need, they don't hold my hand and walk me threw every little thing but they do enough.

As for xite-1's price. XITE is very complex platform with lots of quality plugins. It is far more sophisticated in design then powercore or uad. It offers far more functionality (zero-latency, routing, mixers, more dsp power, more portable, complete arsenal of plugins, mic pre's, soundcard, etc). XITE-1 is cheaply priced considering all it offers, some people may not appreciate all it offers but none-the-less it has offerings that are many and rare. I think the price is beyond fair.

When it comes to SCOPE Platform and Sonic Core there is a very big picture to be seen, one needs to look at the whole picture and fairly judge before critisizing, apraising and complimenting.

PS. SCOPE definitely is'nt for everyone, if a product kept me upset i'd simply leave it alone. I use to be on Propellerhead's forum constantly complaining about Reason. wanting audio-in, third-party plugins, better soundquality, etc, i eventually realized that Reason was not going to be the instrument for me and that i needed to go elsewhere. Complaining constantly was'nt healthy for me or others and my time could be better spent. but i also seen that others loved it for what it is and they have a right to their dream tool, it is a valid program for them. Every music program is'nt for everyone. I eventually found SCOPE and was right at home, the journey was over, i found the one :o :o .

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Last edited by Sounddesigner on Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:04 pm, edited 22 times in total.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by siriusbliss »

Running Xite with a new laptop here - now flawless and well-integrated with Samplitude and Ableton Live.

The DSP optimization for the native Scope devices is basically complete as far as I'm concerned. The 1632 still has issues with inserts unrelated to DSP, but I'm not using it.

I'm running multiple Zarg and other synths, ModIV, bxDigital (for mixing/mastering) with no issues, and FP mixers is rapidly becoming my front-end recording mixer (once DSP is properly assigned and allowed to optimize, it's great)

Xite is definitely worth the upgrade, since it's designed as multiple studio/live configurations in one unit.
It is now my whole studio run on a laptop. It's a highly-leveraged upgrade option.

64-bit release is looming as well as 'official' release at Scope V5.1. THEN the publications will catch on (including two that I'm writing reviews for now).

Greg
Xite rig - ADK laptop - i7 975 3.33 GHz Quad w/HT 8meg cache /MDR3-4G/1066SODIMM / VD-GGTX280M nVidia GeForce GTX 280M w/1GB DDR3
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by siriusbliss »

stardust wrote:;) I wonder what you mean with 'well integrated' when it comes to host integration.

But for sure this is an opinion without naming the level of integration.

The integration into VST hosts is by no means 'well' yet as all XTC users can tell.
Initial tests of VSTim (XTC) mode here in Samplitude worked fine - but I continue to prefer running Samplitude inside Scope.

For the guys that like all the nifty preset pull-downs and some other handling/hand-holding between the host and Scope, then yes perhaps this is an issue.
I haven't tested any other hosts' XTC compatibility, so have nothing to say re: stability or functionality with those hosts.

I was actually surprised that VSTim worked better now with Samplitude than it did years ago.

Greg
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by Marzipan »

Thanks for all the responses, I was probably overly harsh in saying there were "no updates" at all... I didn't realize the Xite-1 wasn't being advertised yet, as it does seem to be available at some online stores, and obviously quite a few people have one already? One aspect I didn't consider is I'm only doing studio work, so live isn't an issue for me (I guess it's pretty great for that kind of thing). It would definitely be a "luxury" item for me for sure, but if the issues that are most critical for me were ironed out I would definitely consider it (even though it would perhaps be a slightly irrational purchase!!). I didn't know repeater cables could be used (or that it connected by HDMI), so the cable length thing is a non-issue. I also wasn't aware of the Modular IV, because it didn't seem to come up as I was browsing the Sonic Core site. That does sound pretty cool, I loved (and miss!) the older versions.

The biggest issues for me are probably the Mac OS X compatibility, because I already use two Macbook Pros in the studio, and would prefer to keep everything on one of those Macs rather than adding another machine (actually that's partly why I ditched my original Scope cards, apart from needing the money at the time, didn't want to keep using an extra computer after I stopped using Gigastudio). Just concerned when Mac compatibility is introduced a whole new bunch of issues could crop up, as I guess it's twice the amount of work for the development team?!

Personally I wouldn't be concerned with the XTC mode problem, seem to remember that has always been a bit buggy, and I don't use Cubase or Samplitude. I used to use Scope in quite a basic way, pretty much as a virtual outboard rack of synths and effects (as well as audio from Gigastudio). So I wouldn't need to use the mixers much. Like I said it's mainly the particular/distinctive sound of some of the synths an plugins that I am missing...

Once the Mac OS X compatibility is introduced, is it feasible I'd be able to hook Scope alongside the host sequencer (Logic), and route audio from Logic in and out of Scope, without needing to use physical I/Os? I mean without using it as my main interface for recording/mixing in Logic (which will be be Metric Halo...) Just not sure if you can run Xite-1 on the same machine? Apologies if that's an obvious question, but I never used Scope on the same machine as a DAW before. I'm trying to keep the new setup as simple as possible, but will need to use patchbays to some extent, due to limited I/Os. It would just be much more convenient if I could take advantage of all the DSP synths/effects of Scope without taking up physical I/Os thus limited what gear I can use simultaneously.

It sounds like the Zarg synths are working fine, which is cool. Even if every single 3rd party plugin doesn't work just yet that wouldn't necessarily matter, if all the Zarg stuff works along with Modular/Flexor then I'd be pretty happy. Also noticed SPL Transient Designer has a new version, so that's good news too.

Siriusbliss, have you tried running the system at 96Khz?? Does anybody know exactly what the issues with 96khz are, and if they are likely to be solved? I just remember it being quite buggy and sometimes unstable when running at that sample rate. Then I read recently that somebody was also having issues with an Xite and 96Khz, which subjectively indicated to me this is a very long-term and perhaps tricky to solve problem... Presumably if there are issues they must be software related, as it'd be crazy if the new hardware had an inbuilt problem working at this sample rate? Any clarification on that would be useful... E.g. if I can run all the Zarg synths/Flexor at 96Khz without using any other plugins and mixers that would be useful to know, if the issues are only related to particular plugins/modules being loaded?

I guess I'll wait and see what happens over the next few months, like I said before it would definitely be a luxury item and an "add-on" rather than an integral part of my new setup, so I can get in with things and wait to see how it develops. Thanks again!
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by siriusbliss »

I've only recorded initial tests at 96K from the front-end A/D's (mic/acoustic guitar) with good results (into Samplitude).
I haven't yet run a fully loaded project with synths, etc. at 96K, nor have I tested VDAT at 96K.

Logic (or most any other host) can be run inside Scope and used as just another device in your overall system. So yes, it's possible (with most hosts) to route out 'externally' to Scope devices and back into your host. Or everything can be run in parallel and mixed down to another destination. That's the whole beauty of Scope is the rout-ability.

Greg
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by Marzipan »

OK, when it gets nearer the time (in a couple of months) and I'm still considering Xite, I'll try and check for more detail about running synths etc. at 96Khz. Because I will definitely be running projects at this sample rate, and since I'd mainly be using the synths that's a bit of a deal-breaker for me.

It sounds like I probably can do what I'm trying to do, if the Mac OS X compatibility is added... Btw is there any indication when that might happen? Just been doing a bit more background reading, and it seems it was meant to be introduced with the version 5 software, but I guess they didn't finish that in time?

Still slightly confused exactly how it will work on a Mac in Logic, as I mentioned before I only used Scope in quite a "basic" way previously, on a dedicated machine. The way I'm imagining it would work is to have Logic set up and my Metric Halo sound card selected as the main audio device in Logic (that's where I'd do all the mixing and monitoring etc., not through Scope). Then I could plug the Xite into the express card slot on the laptop, and fire up the Scope software at the same time as Logic. I could then route audio from Logic in to Scope and back, completely within software? Would I have to use any other program to achieve this, e.g. SoundFlower? And how would the I/O's be named in the Scope routing page? Thanks.

siriusbliss wrote:I've only recorded initial tests at 96K from the front-end A/D's (mic/acoustic guitar) with good results (into Samplitude).
I haven't yet run a fully loaded project with synths, etc. at 96K, nor have I tested VDAT at 96K.

Logic (or most any other host) can be run inside Scope and used as just another device in your overall system. So yes, it's possible (with most hosts) to route out 'externally' to Scope devices and back into your host. Or everything can be run in parallel and mixed down to another destination. That's the whole beauty of Scope is the rout-ability.

Greg
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by garyb »

the reason you haven't seen reviews is that reviews are given to advertisers. don't you know that the company sends the info about use to the writer/reviewer and then he rewrites the article in his "own words", 99% of the time? it's an industry. the real gear, the best stuff is RARELY if ever reviewed.

the XITE would certainly allow you do do much more than the metric halo, including realtime connection to the real world. Logic would be a multitrack recorder sitting in the Scope environment(Logic i/o would be the ASIO modules in Scope). the XITE would not be inferior in sound quality, but if you have one of the M/H models with ADAT i/o, it could be connected to the XITE as i/o for the XITE.

osx is in beta, but only S/C knows when and if.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by spacef »

The thing is that 96Khz would be useful only if you use asio with the DAW at 96khz (and I guess that's why you ask if they can run on the "same machine": rather, i understand "can it run at same samplerate as my DAW/asio driver"). Otherwise, there is no difference in quality with plugins (synths or effects or else). It means that, internally, without considering DAWs etc, Scope doesn't need 96khz or even 48khz to provide a superior sound signal with one of the maximum bit-depth available.

I tested only my own plugins on a Scope system, they just take 2.2 times the dsp approx (96/44.1). No difference in sound or functionality.
The fact it takes more ressources is not particular to Xite/Scope, i cannot give you other examples right away, but a lot of soundcards, synths, converters etc work at half the power at 96khz compared to 44.1. they give you half the i/os etc... it is apparently normal in the industry (with very few exceptions, 96khz is "just" a kind of dual 48khz stream that is "rebuilt" afterward)... so Grossly speaking, you need to double the number of audio streams, and that translates into using twice the power. This is what is 96khz (and 192Khz is twice 96khz... etc etc).
It still doesn't solve the hard drive problems when dealing with a lot of audio at 96khz (you will not get very far with a single regular hard drive).

I imagined that, If i really wanted to have 96khz audio record-playback, i would use scope or xite connected to another soundcard. That way, I have both 96khz and full xite/scope power.
The only problem would be to remember your routing from a card to another, but a couple of sessions and that would be fine. That would probably require analog connjection rtather than digital (is there an adda that can convert from a samplerate to another on the same adat lightpipe ? otherwise, it is analog: exemple: xite connected to a rme or protools or something like that: some people do use this kind of setup, in pro studios or at home)....
What keeps me away from going that way is not he extra budget connections etc... it is the hard disk that will not be able to cope with my always high number of audio tracks unless i go to some complicated Raid setup that put 100% of my data at risk of total destruction every seconds..... i am not ready for such risks.

Multiple cards in a single PC is a setup that is used and that would work really fine even with all in the same PC (i have at least 3 different asio drivers on the same PC, not even speaking of the wave drivers... several soundcards, some of them are used at the same time (analog or digital routing into scope), and some for very specific purposes, but of course, only 1 asio is used at the same time (it is Windows...no multiclient Asio drivers contrary to MAC where you would be able to use all the asios of all the soundcards at the same time).
I know you are going to say 'yes but for the price of xite, it must have 96khz etc and not be obliged to buy another soundcard and special adda or whatever" ... ok, you are right, but this is not an argument for anyone who is used to scope, mainly because it obliges to run half the plugins... something nobody wants to do here (i am pretty sure :-) ).
This decision is about your way of work, budget etc....
But if you want to run only synths, then 44.1 or 96khz will not change a bit of their sound. that way, it can be used - on the same machine - but not using the asio driver (the xite would be a kind of synth rack inside your pc, and you will control it through midi and audio connections, just like a hardware expander). Pricewise, an xite is similar to a motif, M3, fantom.... funny. So you add Kontakt or Gigasampler or whatever sampler you like, and you have better than any of the high end workstations...And, if you really want a synth that is Scope powered and really runs natively at 96khz, get a Solaris Hardware... (it cost approx the double than an xite-1)...

It is possible that there will be improvement on 96khz on Scope-Xite, i currently have no idea.... but i don't think it is possible in any hardware equipement to have 96khz and not use twice the ressources that a 44.1 or 48khz set up would need.That's something that cannot be changed unless they hide another Xite inside Xite that would be used only if a user suddenly decides to switches to 96khz.... And the price of that machine is easy to find out... twice the price of an xite.

I hope it helps.
Last edited by spacef on Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by Marzipan »

So many replies, wow thanks! ;)

Gary, not 100% sure what you mean by "realtime connection to the real world"?. My main interface on my Macbook Pro with Logic is going to be the MH ULN-8, which has very flexible routing and features (including surround monitor control etc.). It also has 8 preamps or instrument inputs (which are ridiculously good quality), whereas the Xite only has two. It's pretty expensive, but then so is Xite! It has 8 analog ins/outs which will got to a patchbay, and 8 AES/EBU I/Os which will be hooked up to my Kyma system (or perhaps a digital patchbay in future if I need to hook up other digital stuff). So it doesn't leave a lot of I/Os left, and no ADAT unfortunately (I hate light-pipe cables anyway, so prefer to stick to AES/EBU if possible for digital). That's why I'm looking for a way I could potentially add the Xite to the main Logic/MH computer without using any cables... It wouldn't be my main recording system.

Don't wanna get into a discussion about the pros/cons of high sample rates, but yes I will want to work at 96Khz sometimes, not necessarily all the time! E.g. some extreme processing/pitch shifting or Kyma stuff I want to at least have the option of working at 96Khz (and I like to record sound effects at 96Khz sometimes when using high quality mics). That's why I want to find out definitively if I will have any problems, specifically because I remember it being buggy with the old cards, and have recently read a post saying somebody was having problems with Xite and 96Khz.

Spacef, I'm not sure I really understand all of your post. I'm talking about my main recording rig being Logic on the Macbook Pro (with Metric Halo as the interface in Logic), with the Kyma system running alongside. Kyma is separate, but both would be clocked to the same source (either Metric Halo or an external clock). I'm wondering if I can then plug the Xite into the express slot on the Macbook Pro, and somehow route the synths from Scope into Logic, or run audio from Logic into Scope and back for effects? I assumed that in this situation the Xite would also need to be clocked to the same source as Logic, the MH interface and Kyma? Also I was under the impression ASIO is mainly for Windows, or Windows only?

So basically If I'm working on a song or sound design in Logic/Kyma at 96Khz I then want to be able to add Scope effects and synths. If this can be done without the Xite being at the same sample rate, and it will sound the same that's fine with me! I didn't think that's how it worked though... I know I can physically hook up the Metric Halo I/Os to the Xite, but I want to know if there's a way on the Mac I'll be able to do it purely within the computer without cables. And if so how will this work exactly, and how will the I/Os show up in Scope? Or is it not possible to know this until the Mac OS X compatibility has been implemented?
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by spacef »

MArzipan, now we are talking :-) .
But it is very late here and i am falling apart.

I need to think of your setup and make the routing in my mind, then i can answer.
What I can say is: xite on mac is not yet there (Gary B knows more than I do :-)

Asio: it is possible that it is only PC and that Macs use another kind of thing (OMS?).
Asio is in fact a technology developped by steinberg (Cubase) a long time ago for lower latency. It is very possible that it is outdated nowadays on macs. My point about macs was just to pioint that it is able to do "multi-clienting" (your daw can use several drivers of different hardware at the same time - or at least that's what i understand by reading mac forums on the subject). That way, contrary to windows, you should not need to decide to "not use" a sound driver of any soundcard, because you should be able to use the all at the same time if you want to. It is possible that this relates only to OMS or another common sound drivers of Macs. The macs i get access to occasionally use only 1 driver and i can't really use them for tests and such....

What i must think of in your question is the digital audio routing. With simple analog connections, your setup idea should not be a problem, but with digital it is when using different samplerate (is it possible ?? i don't think so if the gear is synched, all in the chain has to be at the same samplerate... except mlay be with very specific clocks (may be Metric Halo are the one who released such a wordclock a couple of month ago, or may be i dreamt,... it's late so i am not sure anymore).

The problem of 96 khz you have read about (ithink i read it too some time ago) is probably someone that switched to 96khz and didn't know only 50% of the power was available, and may be he loaded too much things and got dsp overloaded... I don't have xite, so I can't really tell, but this seems perfectly normal to me.

Thanks for your patience (but I am sure i will wake up tomorrow and there will be plenty of answers :-)
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by garyb »

as i said, Logic's i/o shows up in Scope as software i/o modules.

aes/ebu cables carry the EXACT same quality signal. the only advantage to the aes i/o would be at the ridiculously wasteful high samplerates. all of them are ok to use, i'm not necessarily trying to change your mind about what you use, just about what those things are.

realtime connection to the real world, means in and out of the computer at the same speed as hardware, realtime. the main thing about Scope is the dsps, which are dedicated realtime processors. it's not that native code can't be as good or realtime, it's just that your computer wouldn't function as a sequencer if it were. Scope is lots of HIGH quality processing, mixing and synths, and at the same time it can fully connect and integrate real world hardware or be used for live work. it's a REAL digital studio, it's not an isolated island. you could still use the very nice M/H pres, but why you wouldn't want the infinitely more useful Scope environment for routing and connecting everything, i don't know(but that's why there's different gear, to make each engineer happy).

i would suggest that if the final form that your music reaches the listeners isn't 96k, then there's no reason to use it, as downsampling will ruin any gains from the high samplerate and the extra resources and hd space would be wasted and burned unecessarily. of course, if you're doing bluray video or a major release motion picture that will be released at 96k or go to analog from 96k, then the high samplerate might be worthwhile, although you may need to run multiple computers to realize the work.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by spacef »

So basically If I'm working on a song or sound design in Logic/Kyma at 96Khz I then want to be able to add Scope effects and synths. If this can be done without the Xite being at the same sample rate, and it will sound the same that's fine with me! I didn't think that's how it worked though... I know I can physically hook up the Metric Halo I/Os to the Xite, but I want to know if there's a way on the Mac I'll be able to do it purely within the computer without cables. And if so how will this work exactly, and how will the I/Os show up in Scope? Or is it not possible to know this until the Mac OS X compatibility has been implemented?
I don't see why you could not, if the metric halo has ADAT i/os (which model is yours by the way ? )
If you want all at 96khz, then the xite will give you half the i/os, half the power etc.
That's if you want to stay in the digital domain (all in the computer).

Personnally i would use the contrary setup: the metrci halo as the central sound card for the daw, and the xite plugged in it through analog connection with very good cables. That way xite becomes an extension of the metric halo and you can use xite at any samplerate, switch samplerate on the fly, etc.
So you could use xite at its normal samplerate of 44.1/32bits for most works (synths etc) and you could switch to 96khz for mastering for example.

Inside scope, there are modules that shows the adat i/os, the analog i/os etc, so it is just a matter of connecting cables inside xite, the way you wish.

on the pic below, taken from my Scope, you can see the 24 adat i/os (adat a,b,c) , some wave and midi drivers, etc... i put a mixer between the ins and outs. The "Mout" of the mixer, is midi out of the mixer, I should have connected it to a "sequencer destination", so anything that i do on the mixer can be recorded as midi in Cubase as long as the parameters that i want to record have a midi CC assigned to it.

The adat i/os are fed into Scope as a digital stream, but most of what is plugged in the A16 ADDA is analogic (microphones, expander, guitar/bass....).

In xite it is the same principle. Modules are black and not blue though.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by Marzipan »

Hi guys, thanks again for more detailed responses!

Gary I see what you mean now, I understand the Scope stuff has really low latency, I used two Scope Pro cards for several years on a dedicated machine (which was hooked up to a Pro Tools HD rig via 24 channels of ADAT, I used hardware inserts in PT to access the Scope Plugins, routed the audio in/out of Scope and it worked great!). However the ULN-8 is also low latency, I don't know (or care) what the exact difference is in milliseconds but a lot of professional recordings are done with this interface, and in practical terms it's absolutely fine for me. The 96Khz issue, well it's been debated many times before, so don't wanna go down that road... I see exactly what you're saying, and most of the time I will probably be working at lower sample rates. But like I said I just want to make sure it's there as an option, and that my system will be stable if I do want to work at 96Khz. I'm not claiming to be able to hear the difference between an audio file at 44.1 or 96. In terms of sound design however, I know for some extreme sound mangling, e.g. extreme pitch-shifting or time-stretching (and possibly some spectral processing in Kyma for example) there are advantages to working at 96khz.

Another issue for me is stability, reliability and peace of mind (because I will be taking on more serious projects in the coming year). I'm going to wait for the Mac OS X update before I even consider adding the Xite to my setup. When I set up the new rig (in the next month or two), I need to be able to start working right away. I won't be surprised it Mac OS X support has NOT been added by then. So there's no way I'll even consider using Xite as my main interface, based on a hypothetical update that hasn't even been released, and may not even be 100% stable once it is released! (given the company's previous track record if there are problems it could be a long time to fix...). I'd rather have everything based on a tried and tested platform which I know won't let me down. And then if I do go for an Xite, have it "tacked on" to the main system mainly to take advantage of the synths/effects. I've looked into how the ULN-8 works and the routing is actually very flexible, and enables me to do everything I need. Everybody I've spoken to who's used it with Logic is completely satisfied with this system, and it's known to be ultra-reliable.

Actually I think you've answered my question already, if I can just plug in via express slot on my MBP like you say, and send audio channels to/from Logic this is PERFECT for what I want to do! I was just confused how this would work, given that it's usually achieved by ASIO on Windows, which presumably won't work on Mac OS X? I was just wondering how you know this will work if the OS X update has not been released yet, have you seen a sneak preview or something? And do you know any more details, like how many audio channels will I be able to route into Scope and back to Logic? (unlimited?). Also do you know how this will be handled within Logic, e.g. can I use Scope effects as an "insert" on a track in Logic, or would I have to set up a template using auxiliary channels? (I know how to insert hardware to Logic channels, but don't know how it will work between Logic/Scope).

Spacef, thanks for the examples. The ULN-8 doesn't actually have ADAT, although it has AES/EBU (8 channels). I can use an AES to ADAT converter, but it's messy and expensive. However, using no cables at all, as Gary was suggesting is a MUCH better solution for me. So I'm very happy to find out this should work once the OS X support is added. Ideally I want my Kyma system to be hard-wired to the AES/EBU interface of the ULN-8, giving me 8 channels. Even if I do share the AES/EBU channels between Kyma and Xite (using a patchbay), it's not a great solution because e.g. if I use Kyma to process something in 5.1 that already only leaves me with 2 channels spare! Once the AES/EBU is in use I only have 8 channels of analog left over on the ULN-8. If I want to use my Nord G2 that already uses up 4 of those analog channels. So I only have 4 channels left, assuming I don't want to plug anything else in... So any solution routing to the Xite physically is going to be very limiting for me (unless I can add more ULN-8's, which I don't expect to have the budget for in the near future!). As I mentioned earlier I used to have 24 channels with Pro Tools in/out of Scope, and for a large mix there were a couple of times when I used up up ALL these channels! (just because to me Scope sounded at least as good, or anyway gave me different options compared to the TDM plugins in PT). Given that I was only using 2 Scope Pro cards at the time, I believe the Xite will be 5 times more powerful than my old system, so only having 4 or 8 channels available doesn't sound like a great solution.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by johndunn »

Right now, I'm grumpy with S/C and their inability to provide timely x64 drivers. I had to move to Win7/64 for development reasons so I shut down my now useless Xite-1 went back to my reliable, trusty Emu 1212m, which has had Vista x64 drivers for a year or more, and they work fine in Win7/64.

So I keep checking the forum Announcements to see if x64 drivers have arrived. I know it's more than likely word will show up here before it does on S/C's web site. They don't keep that up very well either.

And for over 10 years I also had a Kyma to compare Scope to. Kyma is nothing like Scope except that they both are DSP platforms that run extensive sound processing software. Kyma is for sound design, the best there is; Scope is for sound production, the best there is. But one does only badly what the other excels at, so they really shouldn't be compared.

However the respective companies do have a lot in common. Both are small (tiny, really) companies that rely on just a few people to do everything. Neither can actually do everything in a timely manner. Symbolic Sound tends to be timely with Mac related issues and not so good with PC issues, S/C is the reverse. Both are dedicated and passionate about what they are doing, both eventually pull through. They just don't have the resources of a large company to throw money at a problem in order to get quick results.

You probably know that Avid has taken over Pro Tools. It's a trend. Creative took over E-mu. Sony took over Sonic Foundry. Adobe took over Cool Edit Pro. Tascam took over Gigastudio. Corel took over Paint Shop Pro. The list goes on and on.

What do they have in common? Small companies peopled by the passionate designers of their products that became known for uniqueness, quality and - most of all - amazing innovation, were taken over by big companies that were interested in none of that, and provided none beyond the conversion update they generally require of the founders before they let them loose. Most of these products are still around, virtually none have seen much innovation since take over.

So while I'm grumpy about not having the x64 drivers yet, and you may be grumpy about the slow Mac support - I'd much, much prefer they keep the passion and innovation, and not sell out to a huge company that will get the drivers to market but won't know how, or even care to bother, with the incredible innovation and sheer genius that makes Scope what it is.

My Xite-1 at the moment is turned off, but I'm glad I got it, and I'll turn it on the minute I can download the new drivers. Meanwhile, I suggest to anyone who is considering Scope and looking at the all too obvious flaky side of things, to remember this is a tiny company of passionate, dedicated people. It can't provide the stability and timely updates of a large company, but a large company can't come close to providing innovation and magic that comes from a labor of love. If you care about your art and the tools you use to create it, you should consider this carefully. Art will survive a bit of flakiness; it can't do much when the passion is tamed into a cash cow.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by spacef »

do! I was just confused how this would work, given that it's usually achieved by ASIO on Windows, which presumably won't work on Mac OS X? I was just wondering how you know this will work if the OS X update has not been released yet, have you seen a sneak preview or something?
Because I tried the Creamware's Noah back in the days of OS 9 and it was working the same as on PC.
There was also a version of Scope for MAC OS9. I think it is the same person(s) who port xite to mac nowadays.
that's why I and other people assume it will work on mac :-)
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by Marzipan »

Thanks for the insight, it's good to hear from somebody who's used both systems for longer than I have. I used Scope from 2004 up until last year, but have only used Kyma for about a year. But it's good to know I'm kind of on the right track, as I said in earlier post I don't wanna compare the systems directly, and understand their different uses (I need the new setup to be geared both for music and sound design).

Personally I'm not grumpy with Scope, this is why I'm making the initial enquiries so I'm can sit on the sidelines for now, wait to find out if it will suit my purposes, and don't need to be grumpy! ;) It's just that this is my 3rd studio installation and each time I've learned from the mistakes of the one before (or I hope so anyway!!). I don't want to deal with technical problems which might prevent me from doing work, which is precisely why I'm making sure the main system (Logic Pro & Metric Halo ULN-8, plus Kyma on a separate MBP) should be rock solid. Then I may add Xite if the budget is left, the Mac OS X support is added in a way that integrates well with Logic on my main MBP, and I feel it's worth making the investment. If it works how Gary described, and I can route multiple channels from Logic in and back out of Scope then it'll make the decision much easier. So I'll keep watching for updates! Thanks.

johndunn wrote:Right now, I'm grumpy with S/C and their inability to provide timely x64 drivers. I had to move to Win7/64 for development reasons so I shut down my now useless Xite-1 went back to my reliable, trusty Emu 1212m, which has had Vista x64 drivers for a year or more, and they work fine in Win7/64.

So I keep checking the forum Announcements to see if x64 drivers have arrived. I know it's more than likely word will show up here before it does on S/C's web site. They don't keep that up very well either.

And for over 10 years I also had a Kyma to compare Scope to. Kyma is nothing like Scope except that they both are DSP platforms that run extensive sound processing software. Kyma is for sound design, the best there is; Scope is for sound production, the best there is. But one does only badly what the other excels at, so they really shouldn't be compared.
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Re: Review of X-ite 1? Coming back to Scope?

Post by garyb »

:)
the only caveat, since i've gotten myself quoted(all my own fault! :lol: ), is that you will only be able to use the Scope environment with the XITE's i/o. that's not necessarily a big deal or problem, i just don't want to mislead you.

you seem to know what you want and need, so more power to you! :)
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