Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

The Sonic Core XITE hardware platform for Scope

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at0m
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Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by at0m »

Hi,

The PCI cards have issues at 96kHz, ie. the Minimax filter and quite some other modules don't fit on a single chip, so can either not be used at all, or polyphony is painstakingly reduced.

So, with everyone (understandably;) raving about Xite's power, I wonder: does it run 96kHz well? And does it have any digital hardware connectivity at that sample rate? S/MUX maybe? How does the cable handle the RAM traffic/ASIO drivers bandwidth/...?

What brave soul has 96kHz for default samplerate on that box, and what are the practical restrictions?

Seeing "10% DSP usage" on your projects is nice, but I rarely hit the DSP limit on my 21 DSP PCI system. Having a fully functional 96kHz setup OTOH would be some added value for me...

Looking forward to reading your experiences!
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by siriusbliss »

I hope to test this some more this weekend.
Initial tests several months ago - recording via the mic and low imp. front-end - went well.

However, it is not my default setting.

Greg
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by dawman »

I haven't tried building a large 96k template since v5.0 2615 ao I thought I would try again.
It's a big no go.
There are work arounds though.
I have to use Reaper as the mixer so I can reduce the amount of ASIO2 I/O's.
Instead of 32 channels I can Buss to 8 x ASIO2's and then record everything to VDAT.
For example I can load tons of synths as long as I keep the amount of connections to a small footprint.
Once everything is recorded to VDAT I can master out @ 96k SMUX to the 2" Otari using Ampex Reels, and that machine would be run by the Audio Playback Engineer.
The Otari was used through a new 16.1 Surround system last October and having SMUX'd signals @ 96k mastered to Ampex Tape is awesome.
I tried using the ASIO 16bit Source & Destination Modules @ 48k & 96k and the same pop ups occur. If you lower polyphony on a synth it still won't change things either.
So I believe that the amount of I/O's has a maximum ceiling and once you hit that brick wall you need to start using less I/O's to continue the project.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by garyb »

most likely there's a specific plugin that is ruining the fun, not just 96k.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by siriusbliss »

Yeah, I would go with lean, direct tracking at 96K into <host of choice> and not worry about all the other routing.
Do raw capture this way at 96, and then edit later with all the other devices.

I also think there's an unoptimized plugin somewhere that doesn't like the configuration. Sorry to say, but it might be the V82.

Greg
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by dawman »

Actually it's VDAT.
Once I removed VDAT it was able to allow more connections, and then I could come back and re install VDAT.
From what I just gathered is that VDAT should be loaded last.
Since it loads on the old DSP2 or other old sharcs, it messes up the compatability mode.
Everything needs to get a handshake in the first 6 DSP chips, and at 96k they probably can handle anything as long as the device in its' default load state isn't bigger than 3 old sharcs.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by siriusbliss »

XITE-1/4LIVE wrote:Actually it's VDAT.
Once I removed VDAT it was able to allow more connections, and then I could come back and re install VDAT.
From what I just gathered is that VDAT should be loaded last.
Since it loads on the old DSP2 or other old sharcs, it messes up the compatability mode.
Everything needs to get a handshake in the first 6 DSP chips, and at 96k they probably can handle anything as long as the device in its' default load state isn't bigger than 3 old sharcs.
oops....thought VDAT was already optimized :roll: :)

Greg
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by spacef »

Hi

V82 is clearly not optimized for Xite and should not be used for the moment. V82 is 5 Scope dsp and will not be updated "as is" but in a form more adapted to xite (probably with half the inserts, as you can't load them all anyways apparently).

Next planned update is FP106C. Then FP104.

In the rather short term, Valve mixer may be unlisted as it is useless to have i don't know how many dsps and to monopolize them with 8 mono channels, as desirable as they can be, but it doesn't make sense at all. It is long work for the dustbin. They might be available for Scope, and updates "optimized" for xite may be available sooner or later, but they will remain devices for Scope as far as support goes (unless i get an xite, but it is really not for soon, no finance for this).

Sorry for the unconvenience.
Thanks for your patience.
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Last edited by spacef on Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by dawman »

Get Out Of town...............
The last guy who needs to feel guilty is you.
Your devices are working better and better each time.
The FB5-X is a masterpiece, andI am sure the FP106C ( X )? will be the same.
The V82 is not the issue w/ 96k, ita an issue of having anything loaded onto the old chips.
Thats why we load the project first on the 12 x new ADSP 21369'rs.
I have much bigger 96k loads now, I will re post when I get a chance....
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by spacef »

I am half way to there ;-)
and i like to take veeery long time to travel..... seeing the hill from one side, you never know what's hiden behind :)
May be you will see something better, faster, "earlier" (hum, been doing and redoing that one for... heew.. long)...... Anyway, it is still stuff made on Scope, tested on Scope... and no other beta testers than users themselves.... :cry:
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by Sounddesigner »

96khz is not that smooth but it works, atleast good enough for my standards. Minimax works aswell as several other big synths by S|C. A nice amount of voices can be gotten with minimax but it depends on what all is in the project with it. 6-8 voices should cause little to no wrestling. More then that is a gamble. Atleast on my system.

JB synths are more difficult to use and you only get a couple voices with them but still usable to an extent. I have to use Solaris 4 instead of 5 tho. This is on my system tho so you may have better or worser luck.

Large amounts of Asio i/o channels can be used but are problematic. My projects are small so there's no problem for me. When i had driver problems with bidule i tried to use the wav interleave and it would not even load. 64 Asio channels load usually but can have problems reloading and overall i'd be skeptical for usual use. But my projects are small generally so there's no problem for me in this department.

With many synths sometime when voices are increased a hung note occurs, the work-around is simply switch to another voice number.

I only use a external microphone and keyboard so i can't tell you if working with external hardware is good or not, i'm mainly ITB.


I use to have problems with more devices such as plate/ambience/inverse/chorus-delay reverbs but since the updates i've been able to use them with much less problems, but plate is still a sometimer and most problematic of all. I would'nt try using too many of those type plugins in a project.

96khz operation is improving but is not smooth yet. If you don't mind doing a bit more wrestling then it may be good enough for you, that's the case with me.

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Last edited by Sounddesigner on Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:47 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by dawman »

Hey bro which version of Bidule are you using ??
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by Sounddesigner »

I had the demo version of bidule wich expired Feb 10th. On the website it says version 0.9696. I emailed tech support my log file and am still waiting for response for the problems i had. I'm hoping they can fix things.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by at0m »

garyb wrote:most likely there's a specific plugin that is ruining the fun, not just 96k.
That's exactly my point: did they structurally fix the load balancing issue, or not? Apparently not, then /o\

Also, running out of connections is a real showstopper IMO... With half of the DSP's used, how on earth can the amount of connections max out!? That's quite an annoying bottleneck eh. If I put my money in the DSP's, I want to run unimpeded up to 90% load or so - that, I could live with...
Last edited by at0m on Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by w_ellis »

Has there been any further thought on this since recent updates? I've never bothered with 96khz before, but interested to know if anyone thinks it's worthwhile at the mixing stage.

Thanks,
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by dawman »

It works.
Alfonso's 96k version of MoJo is the only recently made device that I am aware of that was designed to be used in 96k.
For recording out to hardware like the studio I am working at I haven't had time to analyze the benfits.
The last link in the recording chain in the studio is the AES/EBU Manley racks,so the next time I am there for mastering I will check it out.
I thought it would be cool live, but I don't hear any difference. In allhonesty I don't hear much difference between 24bit and 16bit.
The latest version of Hollywood Strings from EW is the 16bit Gold version. 90% of the functionality of the Platinum version and 800 bucks cheaper. I hear zero difference in those instruments.
But then again I haven't had a major block buster Movie Score since the Blair Witch Project.
I recorded silence throughout the entire film and it sounded marvellous.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by iSiStOy »

There also are DAS Reverb Bundle and update RMX160, now optimized and fully working with 96KHz. Not tested but Eric reported he has tested it.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by garyb »

for the cost in resources, the gains are exceedingly small. even if fully optimized, 96khz has no advantage for most people. it certainly won't make the difference in whether or not something is sellable or popular.
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by iSiStOy »

Agree with Gary
Only things I know about that are sampling at this frequency, are hardware devices.
But I never had the opp. to compare for instance, ancient series of a Nord Lead 2 and current Nord Lead 2X so it's hard to say it has a significant interest. Plus the fact it's necessarily a D/A change so it would also have a de facto impact on sound quality, without speaking of freq./bit depth change.
And as said, the resources cost is to high in scope, when you want to use mixers, synths, effects... imo.
48KHz is probably already good enough, even if you're using Scope as a live system and are not reduced to 44.1 mixdown
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Re: Xite @ 96kHz: some questions...

Post by siriusbliss »

There is some trending towards 96K and HD surround audio for orchestra and blue-ray market target (such as film scores).

Xite could easily be used for live audio capture for these purposes.

Otherwise yes, for synths, and most destinations like CD or MP3, then 96K is overkill.

Greg
Xite rig - ADK laptop - i7 975 3.33 GHz Quad w/HT 8meg cache /MDR3-4G/1066SODIMM / VD-GGTX280M nVidia GeForce GTX 280M w/1GB DDR3
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