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 Post subject: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:38 am 
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just an idea...
I was thinking about the transportability XITE has, given that it is external. Since Scope software needs minimal integration with system to work (I mean you can copy the folders where you want, only the driver installation needs a system interaction), it would be easy to use an external hd to transport Scope installation folder, projects, presets, devices... and only the driver should be installed when plugging XITE into anything. So why not integrate that hd directly into the XITE?

cheers
Fede


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:44 am 
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Why do it? :)

It will not make X-ite a stand alone piece of software. It still has no OS.

You can plug a USB stick into a PC, and that will be just as good, and all X-ite owners will not have to pay extra for R&D of a feature, which is not needed.


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:52 am 
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well, yes, no extra cost is a reason good enough, but if it didn't too cost much it would be comfortable to have such an extra/expansion feature, just to be sure not to forget anything and have all in one thing. People doing live things may like it

cheers
Fede


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:58 am 
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People doing live things could run it from a laptop or a 2 unit rackmount PC. What is there to forget :)

Also, it adds weight which is not needed, and it would IMO be a bad design choice, if the user could not take it out - or needed to open the case to take it out. Such a case would likely be better of with 'no user serviceable parts inside'. If you want to be able to take the disc out, it will take a good deal more space, and it might be harder to fit everything in a 1u box. If you can't do that, the idea kind of fails. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:04 am 
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Fede wrote:
People doing live things may like it


What would their benefit be? X-ite will still need a PC of some sort to run. Software needs an OS. This software apears to need a CPU too to run that OS. If you want a full stand alone version, that would be a substantial redesign of the whole thing, and it would only benefit those, who do not use it with some kind of external sequencer software like Samplitude or Reaper. The extra cost would likely be higher for the end user than just plugging a laptop/PC into the current version.


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:19 am 
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Immanuel wrote:
People doing live things could run it from a laptop or a 2 unit rackmount PC. What is there to forget :)

the pendrive you mentioned before, don't you remember? :P

the idea came from the fact that my 50€ inkjet printer is seen by the system also as external storage since it can host memory cards...
example of use:
I go to my friend's studio carrying only one rack and there I plug it into whatever pc/mac/laptop he has, then launch Scope sw, total time: 10ms of driver installation, then I have all my devs, presets on his machine working and *ready* to be used.

I could take XITE anywhere without knowing if the machine I will use has a free usb/e-sata/fw port or what kind it is. "Totally ignore it" (that would be the name of this feature :D )

Fede


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:52 am 
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Fede wrote:
Immanuel wrote:
People doing live things could run it from a laptop or a 2 unit rackmount PC. What is there to forget :)

the pendrive you mentioned before, don't you remember? :P

No, because you run it from your rack-mount PC. Really, I do not want to pay the extra, that a hard drive integration would cost - only because others are afraid to forget their USB stick. :o And i'd say, that a USB hub would still be cheaper than integrating a hard drive into X-ite. It will also weigh less.

And driver installation also only takes seconds from a USB stick. That is all you will need. You don't need to install Scope to run it. Just have it there on the stick, and you are fine. Or on a CD. You just copy the folder to the harddrive and run the app from there.

I also do not want a guitar with the cable solderen on - to prevent me from forgetting it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:54 am 
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Fede wrote:
I go to my friend's studio carrying only one rack and there I plug it into whatever pc/mac/laptop he has, then launch Scope sw, total time: 10ms of driver installation, then I have all my devs, presets on his machine working and *ready* to be used.

you won't, unless scope is (or will be written to be) a portable application.
- there are paths and stuff referenced in the registry. well, I could be wrong here, since I never tried running scope from a path I just copied over.
anybody here to check what scope puts to the registry? or what it does on osx?
simply copying from CD (as also suggested) might bring up problems with the dsp files, remember? they are flagged +r... :)
- you can't expect that external drive to get the same driveletter or mountpoint assigned as you have locally, for several reasons. but this might be necessary.
- your daw will have to be configured to use the xite I/O.
- for xtc to work, files have to be copied to the whereever your vst folder is.
- there is a big difference how a mac and a pc see filesystems. to support both OS, 2 partitions had to exist (unless you want OSX to have write access to your ntfs partition).

I might have forgotten some points, still. no, I don't believe that your installation will be ready to go within seconds, sorry.
once an initial setup is properly done, it may work, eventually.

-greetings, markus-

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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:54 am 
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kylie wrote:
you won't, unless scope is (or will be written to be) a portable application.

a part from system related libraries, it is.
kylie wrote:
- there are paths and stuff referenced in the registry. well, I could be wrong here, since I never tried running scope from a path I just copied over. anybody here to check what scope puts to the registry? or what it does on osx?

no there aren't, there is only driver registration.
kylie wrote:
simply copying from CD (as also suggested) might bring up problems with the dsp files, remember? they are flagged +r... :)

yes, because files copied from cd have read only flag, this is not the case.
kylie wrote:
- you can't expect that external drive to get the same driveletter or mountpoint assigned as you have locally, for several reasons. but this might be necessary.

no it isn't
kylie wrote:
- your daw will have to be configured to use the xite I/O.

only driver installation is necessary and it takes less than a half minute
kylie wrote:
- for xtc to work, files have to be copied to the whereever your vst folder is.

I'm not referring to xtc, as it doesn't work on macs
kylie wrote:
- there is a big difference how a mac and a pc see filesystems. to support both OS, 2 partitions had to exist (unless you want OSX to have write access to your ntfs partition).

FAT32? what file system do you think is being used on pen drives?
kylie wrote:
I might have forgotten some points, still. no, I don't believe that your installation will be ready to go within seconds, sorry.
once an initial setup is properly done, it may work, eventually.

maybe I'm wrong but IMO the only initial setup required is driver installation and put a link in the desktop

cheers
Fede

P.S.: yes, big brother is right, I was answering your message :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:09 am 
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Immanuel wrote:
No, because you run it from your rack-mount PC

No, not "my" computer, this is the point. But any computer I find:
in the office :D , at my parent's home, when I go visit relatives in another region for some weeks, on a stage with instrumentation shared with other people, in other studios....

As a guitarist I'm used to carry the guitar everywhere and plug in the amp / d.i. I find. I don't travel with the amp, don't use pods
I don't want to travel with my computer too in same cases (when I know I'll use some other), this is going to weigh less! :)

ok, no hard drive (though a notebook hd wouldn't weigh a lot), call it memory card, compact flash, ssd, some sort of storage. I'd like to have it and transport scope files directly inside XITE without anything else required.
Yes you're right, It should be optional. (only for lazy people like me.)
I don't think a storage *option* would raise the cost a lot and a simple microSD slot like the one on cell phones would do the job (if transfer rate is acceptable).

but it is just an idea... XITE will already be a great thing. I don't want XITE to cost more for other people just for my idea :)

cheers
Fede


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:13 am 
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Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
- you can't expect that external drive to get the same driveletter or mountpoint assigned as you have locally, for several reasons. but this might be necessary.

no it isn't

that would require all paths to be relative. is this really the case? I somehow doubt that...

Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
- your daw will have to be configured to use the xite I/O.

only driver installation is necessary and it takes less than a half minute

well, I doubt that, still. what does he do when you unplug your xite then? automatically return to the settings as they were before? :)

Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
- for xtc to work, files have to be copied to the whereever your vst folder is.

I'm not referring to xtc, as it doesn't work on macs

but then it's not really system-independent anymore.

Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
- there is a big difference how a mac and a pc see filesystems. to support both OS, 2 partitions had to exist (unless you want OSX to have write access to your ntfs partition).

FAT32? what file system do you think is being used on pen drives?

a CF card would be sufficient, then. and no, I don't want to see FAT32 on my harddisks again.

Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
I might have forgotten some points, still. no, I don't believe that your installation will be ready to go within seconds, sorry.
once an initial setup is properly done, it may work, eventually.

maybe I'm wrong but IMO the only initial setup required is driver installation and put a link in the desktop

I'm curiuos whether this will really work or not. should be easy to test with an usb drive.

-greetings, markus-

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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:36 am 
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kylie wrote:
Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
- your daw will have to be configured to use the xite I/O.

only driver installation is necessary and it takes less than a half minute

well, I doubt that, still. what does he do when you unplug your xite then? automatically return to the settings as they were before? :)

what happens when you remove a scope card from your system? the installed driver is unloaded by Windows but kept in case of future reinstall.

kylie wrote:
Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
- for xtc to work, files have to be copied to the whereever your vst folder is.

I'm not referring to xtc, as it doesn't work on macs

but then it's not really system-independent anymore.

ok, so, if you connect to a pc, you could copy the vst folder to the proper location on that pc, here there's a risk on drive letter effectively, I agree with you on this, maybe xtc could not be used without editing the ini file with paths, but mac owners never did

kylie wrote:
Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
- there is a big difference how a mac and a pc see filesystems. to support both OS, 2 partitions had to exist (unless you want OSX to have write access to your ntfs partition).

FAT32? what file system do you think is being used on pen drives?

a CF card would be sufficient, then. and no, I don't want to see FAT32 on my harddisks again.

Here, it's a matter of taste, I *do* prefer to have it instead, but all pen drives have it if not the older fat16.

kylie wrote:
Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
I might have forgotten some points, still. no, I don't believe that your installation will be ready to go within seconds, sorry.
once an initial setup is properly done, it may work, eventually.

maybe I'm wrong but IMO the only initial setup required is driver installation and put a link in the desktop

I'm curiuos whether this will really work or not. should be easy to test with an usb drive.

...or simply change partition/drive letters, or do the driver installation from another system partition

cheers
Fede


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:01 am 
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I think that would really put the nails in the coffin to the underpowered Muse Receptors.

They have an excellent idea using a Linux based O.S. and internel/external HDD options, but many performers I know went with that approach, and once they found they still had delays in loading their VST's and VSTi's, they were forced to buy another Receptor to pull off live gigs !! That's about 5 Large right there, not including the cost of the VSTi's and external storage.

I think Fede's idea is an excellent one, especially if eSATA / 1394b / and USB 2.0 were the external storage options.

Personally eSATA 1U's are the fastest solution, and are hot swappable also.

Wait and see how well XITE-1 works, and how competitors will respond. If I were SC I'd keep my eyes out for TC Electronics response to XITE-1. They will be angry that such a powerful choice to their System 6000 w/ incredible synthesis has been unveiled.

This is the future though, no matter what shape it takes.

My rig is shrinking quickly as I age. This formula is good for me. By the time I am 70 years old, I should be accessing all of my sounds from an iPhone wirelessly, and have a folding virtual controller that weighs 12 pounds and has no wires. :wink: :D

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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:42 am 
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Different people work differently, many would never use it, so they paid extra for something they dont need.
Maybe put a header and space for one, since the hardware costs almost nothing but have the drive as an option/user installed


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:07 am 
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Deliver Unmerciful Beatings w/ SonicCore's " RESPECTOR ". Due out in 2009. :lol:


Ankyu.

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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:44 am 
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Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
well, I doubt that, still. what does he do when you unplug your xite then? automatically return to the settings as they were before? :)

what happens when you remove a scope card from your system? the installed driver is unloaded by Windows but kept in case of future reinstall.

that's correct. you will have to adjust your daw (the software), though, not to use scope asio anymore but whatever audio hardware is installed.
if you plug in xite again weeks later, the drivers are loaded again, but to actually use it, you have to turn some knobs, don't you?

Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
a CF card would be sufficient, then. and no, I don't want to see FAT32 on my harddisks again.

Here, it's a matter of taste, I *do* prefer to have it instead, but all pen drives have it if not the older fat16.

you will always forget something...
to take the pendrive with your environment with you, or to make regular backups of whatever portable medium would be used. you are not trusting ultimately in a portable disk or pendrive or cf card or harddisk, are you? :)
not that I trust desktop harddisks absolutely, but still that's where I want my relevant data on. backup solutions might not include removable storage devices by default, so you have to take care there is a backup somewhere, in case your xite-drive getis damaged on the road.

Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
I'm curiuos whether this will really work or not. should be easy to test with an usb drive.

...or simply change partition/drive letters, or do the driver installation from another system partition

I found some .sys entries in the registry poiting to my Scope path (even with the slashes instead of backslashes). does anybody know what they're for?
just changing partitions is no proof. taking the whole scope path, putting it to another fresh installed machine, choosing a different drive letter and just installing the drivers when prompted would be the real world test. I might be able to do that soon.

of course, this doesn't say anything about the procedure with scope 5. if it's a complete rewrite it may act completely different, be that good or bad.

imho a clean install on every machine, combined with a synchronize function to save the relevant subfolder to a mobile drive (even built in) and a method of reimporting it on the target system could be a possible solution.

just my opinion :)

-greetings, markus-

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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:43 am 
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kylie wrote:
I found some .sys entries in the registry poiting to my Scope path (even with the slashes instead of backslashes). does anybody know what they're for?

yes, it is the driver registration.
kylie wrote:
just changing partitions is no proof. taking the whole scope path, putting it to another fresh installed machine, choosing a different drive letter and just installing the drivers when prompted would be the real world test. I might be able to do that soon.

yesterday I found time to do a little test:

- shut down sfp.exe
- move entire scope folder to another partition
- run new located sfp.exe

=> sfp app works fine :)
BUT, project files like startup.pro contain absolute paths of .dev files, so you're asked to search/browse when loading. (.mdl files instead should be saved inside the pro file afaik)
kylie wrote:
of course, this doesn't say anything about the procedure with scope 5. if it's a complete rewrite it may act completely different, be that good or bad.

yes, I suppose paths relativeness will be preserved, in order to easy get cross-platform compatibility. (in MacOSX apps are actually folders with a well defined structure and can be moved everywhere, so uninstallation process consists of only trashing the folder, there's no registry, this is a strong constraint on how to design the app)

anyway, @ S|C they know well how things are, here is the idea, if they like it they will consider it. :wink:

cheers
Fede

P.S.: ...there's a lot of unused space on the front right


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:00 am 
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Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
I found some .sys entries in the registry poiting to my Scope path (even with the slashes instead of backslashes). does anybody know what they're for?

yes, it is the driver registration.

*scratch* but they refer to absolute paths. shouldn't it refuse to work if those files are gone? did you reboot between your tests?

Fede wrote:
yesterday I found time to do a little test:

- shut down sfp.exe
- move entire scope folder to another partition
- run new located sfp.exe

=> sfp app works fine :)

glad to hear that. well, it actually might be work more flawlessly than I would consider to believe... who knows? :)

Fede wrote:
P.S.: ...there's a lot of unused space on the front right

yeah, they made it look very nice. why must you ruin it? :)
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

-greetings, markus-

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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:33 am 
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kylie wrote:
*scratch* but they refer to absolute paths. shouldn't it refuse to work if those files are gone? did you reboot between your tests?

I've said driver installation would be the only process required.
Driver installation copies driver files to the %SYSTEMROOT%\system32\drivers folder, then inserts keys in the registry under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE to inform the system what type of hardware and the name of the driver files required to use it.

In my test I haven't uninstalled the driver, I've only moved sfp folder. :)

kylie wrote:
Fede wrote:
P.S.: ...there's a lot of unused space on the front right

yeah, they made it look very nice. why must you ruin it? :)
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

...maybe the'll do an ugly version just for me! :lol:

btw, can't wait for it... sorry to scare people sharing my wild imagination about it :oops:

cheers
Fede


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 Post subject: Re: I'll want XITE rev2 with internal HD
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:53 am 
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Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
*scratch* but they refer to absolute paths. shouldn't it refuse to work if those files are gone? did you reboot between your tests?

I've said driver installation would be the only process required.
Driver installation copies driver files to the %SYSTEMROOT%\system32\drivers folder, then inserts keys in the registry under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE to inform the system what type of hardware and the name of the driver files required to use it.

In my test I haven't uninstalled the driver, I've only moved sfp folder. :)

thi's clear. that's why I asked. I wanted to know if there is any relation to the files referenced in the registry as \\?/D:/Programme/Scope/andthensomepath/some.sys. (that's where I installed it to).
the drivers copied to %systemroot% is another thing. they have to be installed there on every system. but what about the other registry keys? do they matter? and when exactly do they matter?

Fede wrote:
kylie wrote:
Fede wrote:
P.S.: ...there's a lot of unused space on the front right

yeah, they made it look very nice. why must you ruin it? :)

...maybe the'll do an ugly version just for me! :lol:

when the first run is sold out, they might consider pimping your xite.

you can still do it the pendrive way, if they don't :)

-greetings, markus-

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