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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:52 am 
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(1) I think the xite with its modern PCI-e connection alone will lead to a much better performance on pci bus.

more loadable reverb instances with backwards compatibility.
------------

(2) and further developers will be able to use new modules that run on the bigger xite onchip ram, from what i was told there won`t be onboard ram.

But the onchip ram will be quite big because there are many chips inside. So a reverb developer could offload quite some of the smaller delays onto onchip memory. Which will for sure be in conflict to backwards compatibility to the old scope systems and cards.

->> So the best thing would be if the pci-e is fast enough and drivers are good enough to load anough reverbs without using onchip ram.

The onchip ram maybe cool also for other interesting things. Many sample layers for a synth construction. Interpolation and waveset tables and so on.... all in realtime....

but that stuff would be exclusive for the xite-1 box and maybe only backwards compatible with custom atom tweaking from soniccore side. not the most elegenat solution.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:48 am 
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rafafredd, i've got to say, problems are often the result of hardware combinations, as well as the way that the system is used. my system is rock solid, as solid as ANY pt system. Jimmy's is used for live work and has never failed him(except when he messes with installing new apps). possibly you have a bad mix of hardware or your expectations of performance are beyond what such an INEXPENSIVE system is capable of. this may be a lot of money for YOU, but again, it's not much for gear.

that all said, improvement is a must, there's no reason for new hard and software if performance is going to remain the same. i support you in your desire for an even BETTER Scope with v5.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:39 pm 
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even real hardware fails:

for example my s2000 had crappy midi timing with more than 5-6 midi channels after i purchased it, so i sent it back and it got fixed.

Older mixing desks soemtimes ahve defective channels strips... and so on or noise when moving faders or eq knobs.


So i think Scope really is quite solid if configured right. The small little bugs are really not such a big thing with scope.

The main thing does work very fine. I`ve not yet worked with any software tools that are this stable and solid as scope.

about 1-2 hangs in a year,.... with pure software you normally get weekly crashes etc....

So SC and old creamware crew really has my respect, because scope is not just a simple software. Its an environment, its almost everything from a studio without a sequencer.
Building such a system from ground in such a stable form is a very hard job, starting from well-thought hardware, the great innovative hardware-to-software integration (modular softmodules), flexibility (exchange modules for different needs), quality of the system (audio itsself, fx plug-ins and synth plugins), and ease of use and saving options... and for sure the SFP software itsself.


And even the small things are what makes thats system that great:
- for example the switch on the synths to disable the fx even when switching through presets. Something i really hate with VSTs.
- the SDK, which is very powerful, yet very easy to use.
- ...

every day I use the system, I can feel the enusiasm the developers have put into this platform. its not just a system, its build with love and with very much care on the little detail that makes music making so much more fun.
(and normally powerful products build with extreme entusiasm are the products, that are really expensive)

It would be an awesome system even without the synths at all. But the synths themselves are what makes this platform unique. Plug-in synths that can stand up against the best VA synths from the big players like roland and korg, etc.

Not yet found a VST that i really was impressed over longer than 1 or 2 days.. :lol:

And finally its a system that even ~10 years after appearing on the market, its yet still untouched in what it is and has no comparable substitute from another company.

For sure there are little things that can improve, and thats not unlikely because no real developer of the original dev crew has touched the system for some years. But these things seem to have changed now.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:05 pm 
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Posts: 83
Location: Brazil
Really guys. Don´t take me wrong. i think the system is fantastic, really. Or I wouldn't be using it at all. As I said, I'm a user AND ENTHUSIAST of the system. The only thing I´m saying is...

1) It's kind of cumbersome to install and setup right.

2) Creamware on that time didn't offered much help in a concise and ORGANIZED fashion as there should exist for such a hard to set hardware. We always have to recover to the forum and wait for other more experienced users to come in with a helping hand. (Again, don't get me wrong. It's a great forum, and you are all very helpful guys.)... My point is... recommended hardware database and tweaks list and Questions and answers should be there in the Creamware site. Hopefully, if all that is still needed for setting up SC XITE-1, SC will work on a database for XITE users, with more information. I mean concise and condensed HELP! If they took all the work and time doing such a great system, and I´m sure that´s what it is, it´s not asking too much for something like this. Is it? When I bought my first Creamware, some 10 years ago, I wasn´t really aware of this, and I had too many problems, buying and selling computer hardaware, setting up tweaks, PCI latency parameters, and I had to work for a living. And yes, even with no reverbs, I get PCI errors, when doing complex routing, large channels multi-mixing and many instances of compressors, eq´s, distortion and other plugs.

3) After all this tweaking, buying hardware, etc... my PCI bus problems still occurs when I´m doing hard jobs. And my jobs at mixing always becomes hard. And you know, recording and mixing is a tedious job, meticulous, hard work, and it always crashes near the end, when I need it MOST to work. So, in my opinion, the old cards runs on PCI, but they were not designed with PCI limitations in consideration. You should always consider limitations. And it seems only nowadays motherboards and chipsets are fast enough to let old Creamware cards designed ten years ago to run smoothly. Well, it also means they were really ahead of their time. Yes, that, they were...

4) The question remains. Was XITE-1 designed with PCIe LIMITATIONS in mind. What´s the point in putting a hundred DSP chips inside a box, if PCIe won´t let you use all the chips? There is a simple question I would lke to do... Will XITE-1 users be able to load reverbs, and only reverbs instances (the most problematic plugs for bus overloading, like the old classic reverb from creamware) until all XITE-1 DSP power is full and still have the system working without totally crashing, as we see in the PCI boards? Why don´t someone at SC chimes in, and give us a REAL answer. That would be good to know, and it is a simple and direct TEST anyone cold do. A direct answer is required, in my opinion. Or they should do tests in many MOBOs and publish information about that, if it can´t stand full DSP load with available real world MOBOs. That way, users knows published limitations when buying the system, and could have a point to reach, when configuring it. It wold make the thing much less deceptive for many of the new users.

5) I'll keep using it anyway. I love it. It's the most open and complete of all! There isn't anything better.

6) There are other good systems out there. UAD1, TC electronics and PT are examples. And they are all easier to deal with, but I still think think Creamware is the best, but not if you don´t want any headaches. as I said, Working with PT has always been much easier for me, from installation to the final mix. But, yes, i do like Creamware better, for the reasosn above, and because I feel more confortable with it´s openess in the studio.

7) About money, there are Creamware users all over the world, and if $4k USD is not too much money for someone in Europe, Japan or USA it might be for someone in Africa or Bolivia, specially considering up to 100% import taxes in some countries like mine (Brazil). That's not important in the discussion.

8 ) Regardless of price point, any system should work as advertised and have good user support. Even a $100.00 US dollars soundcard, that today can do wonders, if you know what to buy and how to work with it.

9) I´ve used DSP plugs that sound as great as any Creamware plugins on many platforms, from PT TDM to HD, VST, the old and wonderful Paris, Powercore, UAD1, and many more. The advantage of Creamware is much more than the Plugins, it´s the unmatched routing and module handling, as well as very low latency.

10) I don´t want to beat Creamware at all. Just want to make it better for final hard audio recording and studio users, like me. I´m a 10 years user, and I feel my feedback might do some good at this point.

Quote:
for example my s2000 had crappy midi timing with more than 5-6 midi channels after i purchased it, so i sent it back and it got fixed.


It got fixed by the manufacturer. You do not have to live with the bug.

Quote:
Older mixing desks soemtimes ahve defective channels strips... and so on or noise when moving faders or eq knobs.


I work with designing and building analog audio gear also, for local studios and for my own studio. Change pots and faders, or most of the time, just clean it using proper cleaning sprays, like you also must do with any old computer hardware, including creamware boards in some places where dust should cause problems with time, and your analog gear should work again.

Quote:
It would be an awesome system even without the synths at all. But the synths themselves are what makes this platform unique. Plug-in synths that can stand up against the best VA synths from the big players like roland and korg, etc.


My system is a 17 DSP system. Ok, it´s not the bigger system around, I know. But I´m a professional pianist and keyboard player. I still have to rely on my old Roland 128 voices XV5080 hardware synth, my Korg TR-rack or my new Yamaha MOTIF-ES 128 voices synth for playing with good enough polyphony for normal brazilian jazz piano playing style, I mean, with cords , bass, melody, improvisation and all at the same time. For electric and electronic style with simpler lines, Creamware does the job very well, and the synths are really very good. But the lack of virtual and realistic instruments in the Creamware platform is a pity. In that territory it really can´t stand up to the competiton, namely Korg, Roland Yamaha, or all the VSTis available out there, or Gigastudio libraries, Reason (here is one that sounds JUST GREAT for all kind of synth and sampling work), etc... Where are all the good realistic instruments libraries for Creamware S-type samplers? Answer: there aren't any. Please, point me to a solution, if you think I´m wrong here... Also, in my opinion, for many kind of styles, nothing sounds like a MOTIF.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:43 pm 
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SC will be silent as every other developer is. Actually we have many lurkers here waiting for small bits of information on it's capabilities.

I have no idea what I am getting into other than massive synths and mixing which I believe is a good start. Just look what these guys did while they were wearing Frank Hunds handcuffs.

I watched this platform mature for years before I bought into it.

I am putting all of my eggs in one basket, that's how much I trust them.

I would be honored to do all of the tests for plugs like the MV PCI test, etc. I owe it to the members here who helped me, and the creators. I never made money for three gigs a week until I used Scope w/ hardware sequencers and automated lights etc.

I am also a Pianist so I relate to your desires as well. I will be the Guinnes Pig / Lab Rat.

I truly believe that Holger and JBowen, and the new team were held back by a guy who didn't have an open mind when it came to business, etc.

These chaps are putting their heart and soul into what I believe they wanted to do long ago and were not allowed to.

As The Good Admiral Once Said..............................

I Fear That All We Have Done Is Awaken A Sleeping Giant, And Fill Him With A Modualr Resolve............. December 7th, 1941, Somewhere West of the Hawaiian Islands.

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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:24 am 
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stardust wrote:
3000 € is a lot for a home studio but nothing for a commercial enterprise. I need to save some months...


It might be a lot for most home studios - if they can't afford it. It's not expensive at all for what it is though. If we consider that 10 years ago home studios were paying 900 euro for a Yam*ha DSP Factory or 1800 euro for 2 of them plus say the AX-16 adat option board and an AX-44 drive bay breakout box. The 2 DS2416 boards and the IO options were coming to approx 2300 euro total - for a completely inferior system to Scope in every sense. Practically everything about the hardware itself was inferior to the Creamware Scope cards and that Yam*ha gear didn't even ship with any software - yes, NO SOFTWARE. :eek: You just got the hardware & that was it, yet they got great reviews at the time as an affordable digital audio workstation solution for home & project studios. Go figure.... Don't get me wrong, my brother & I invested heavily in that Yam*ha gear, but in retrospect I now look at it as having been complete crap, especially when compared to the quality & value of Creamware Scope cards. Further to that, I also personally think that Sonic Core will have significantly improved on the quality and value of Scope with the new XITE hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:17 pm 
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rafafredd wrote:
4) The question remains. Was XITE-1 designed with PCIe LIMITATIONS in mind. What´s the point in putting a hundred DSP chips inside a box, if PCIe won´t let you use all the chips? There is a simple question I would lke to do... Will XITE-1 users be able to load reverbs, and only reverbs instances (the most problematic plugs for bus overloading, like the old classic reverb from creamware) until all XITE-1 DSP power is full and still have the system working without totally crashing, as we see in the PCI boards? Why don´t someone at SC chimes in, and give us a REAL answer. That would be good to know, and it is a simple and direct TEST anyone cold do. A direct answer is required, in my opinion. Or they should do tests in many MOBOs and publish information about that, if it can´t stand full DSP load with available real world MOBOs. That way, users knows published limitations when buying the system, and could have a point to reach, when configuring it. It wold make the thing much less deceptive for many of the new users.


Well, we do know one thing...Ralf said a while back that Xite will have onboard memory, unlike the previous boards. This means that reverbs and delays will not have to hog the bus so much. As to whether old pre-Xite devices will be able to take advantage of the new memory, or if they were specifically designed to use system memory only, we have no idea.

The other scary thing is that PCI-E x1 is only twice as fast as PCI, right? So if you have 10x the DSP power as previous boards, but the bus is only 2x faster, that means....?

Again, maybe the onboard memory can take care of that. Or, maybe Xite can use PCI-E x4 effectively....

All shall be revealed soon, if the Juli 2008 :wink: target stays on schedule.

Shayne

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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:42 pm 
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