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 Post subject: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:35 am 
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I was wondering with the new PCI-e being much more stronger in terms of bandwidth, will we be able to see a big jump in time based effects counts, and possibly large looping of audio and step sequencer footprints?

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:46 am 
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Wouldn't the PCI-E buss just be used as a way of controlling the Xite-1 from your computer and storing Xite-1 settings on your computer? So the Xite-1 wouldn't rely on PCI-e bandwidth at all to processes audio. Just realised I might have duplicated your question on a new topic I just started on this Xite-1 forum..... 8)


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 Post subject: PCIe just control only ?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:36 pm 
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Currently my Cubase sends all audio data to PCI Creamware cards for mixing/FX, then back to Cubase in realtime - (for mixdown) - all simultaneously. This is more than just control data ( eg midi) so same would apply if (in the case of xite-1) sharcs removed to outside of DAW and connected via PCIe cable/connector would it not ?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:10 pm 
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hesnotthemessiah wrote:
Wouldn't the PCI-E buss just be used as a way of controlling the Xite-1 from your computer and storing Xite-1 settings on your computer? So the Xite-1 wouldn't rely on PCI-e bandwidth at all to processes audio. Just realised I might have duplicated your question on a new topic I just started on this Xite-1 forum..... 8)


It will use the PCI-e bandwidth eaxactly as Scope cards use the PCI bandwidth, for all the audio streams and cpu dependent activities as well as the uses involving RAM, like it is now.

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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:25 am 
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just posted it in another thread, and found this thread about pci bandwith after posting, so I´ll quiote myself... Really, I´m not happy at all with this. If they go all the way into a brand new system, with much more power, they should have considered it quite well. And I do expect a word from SC about the old PCI overflow issues, and how their new system works in regards to this BUG.

Quote:
Can´t find a word about it...

Well, with the "old" scope SFP platform, we never got away of the disgusting pci overflow thing, no matter what system you were running. There were always a limit of number of reverbs possibility, etc...

Now, does the XITE use internal memory for the plugins, or will we also reach at some point PCIe overflow? That would be bad news. The most important thing would be to keep ALL the processing inside the thing, I think. Then only digital audio "results" would be exchanged with the system throght PCIe. Off course, the scope 5 system would still need to be on the main memory, but keeping memory for the plugins inside the xite box, would do the trick for NO MORE bus overflows.

Really, I love the old system but I was never totally happy because no PCI system can deal with the kind of things I do. I use it for mixing, and I use it at full potential, with big mixers full of dsp plugins, sometimes I do up to 96 channel summing, with lots of reverbs, compressors, etc... just like an analog studio. And after many many systems, I got to say that PCI overflow ALWAYS find it´s way to strike me in the middle of a big project. Exactly when I need the system to work. It caused me too many problems, really.

Now, if I´m gona pay $4k for the new xite system, I need it to work, with no overflows. I hope that soniccore managed to overcome this issue. Now you say... WOW, PCIe wo´t overflow that easily. I know. But what about three years from now. With much heavier plugins for the new platform??? Will it really NEVER overflow. Well, if soniccore can guaratee it, I´m done. They did the best thing ever. But if they won´t guaratee, really, I´m not very inclined to pay 4k on a buggy system, and I mean it.

And I mean it. If it´s designed to work with PCIe, it should work with all, or at least MOST PCIe systems, and I would not have to set PCI latency and tweak my system for years, and still get errors when I most need it to work, in the middle of PROFESSIONAL work. I hate when it happens. Did you see how the client looks when they see some error on the screen, and the music suddenly stops with a loud pop?

Argh. I really think that for $4k, it should be fixed.

Does anyone have a word about this in the new xite system?


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:22 pm 
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The problem with PCI overflow is mostly related to reverbs. SC could use the following solutions :

1) Use the RAM on the actual host via PCIe interface.
With this option, you'll probably be able to load alot more instances of the plugins compared to the other solutions, since you have alot more RAM on your host, but you're bound to the bandwidth of the PCIe interface. You WILL experience PCI overflow if you tax the system too much - most likely because of the amount of DSP ressource available on the XITE-1 i.e. You want better quality (more dense reverbs) and bigger projects.

2) Use the onchip RAM
This WILL limit the number of instances you can load on your system (this solution is used by Protools etc) and the complexity of the plugins - The P100 could not be implemented on Protools without modifications - there's not enough RAM for the surrounding delaylines (Echo + Reflec).

3) Use onboard RAM
SC could implement additional RAM on the XITE system, but that would add to the complexity of the system when they decide to release additional DSP products, since they would all need onboard RAM and that would probably be too expensive for small DSP cards. The first version of the Scope card had 32MB of onboard RAM, but since the Pulsar didn't, none of the plugins available for the platform use the additional memory.

I prefer solution 1.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:13 pm 
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I don´t know. Even with the fastest systems I was able to test, with all recommended chipsets, the old creamware pulsar system still reached overflow in a complex mixing situation. Even with no reverbs. Imean, try compressors for each channel in a 64 plus channels mixing configuration... You will see, it does overflows with no reverbs. I was just hoping PCIe is really fast enough for overcoming these problems in the new XITE system, OR, SC had implemented LARGE onboard ram. I mean, I really don´t think that would e a major implementation problem. And today you could easily have 2Gb or so of memory without having to spend too much. RAM is really cheap nowadays. And really fast also. So, all I have hoped is that onboard XITE ram was present in the XITE, but as far as no info is given about this, I think it´s just wishful thinking. It would be really bad to spend $4k on a system. My point is. What is the point in having so much DSP, and be stuck with bus overflows??? I don´t get it. SC should really pay more attention to this. The old system, whatever you all guys say, and I also love it, is totally cumbersome, in regards to configuration. Last time, I was running many softwares for managing PCI latency, editing many obscure windows files and parameters, and spending hours in the forum for tweaks and problems... And I DO THINK that no one should have to do it after spending $4k in a new system. That´s my point. It should work great out of the box, I mean. If onboard RAM IS NEEDED for proper system performance, it MUST BE IMPLEMENTED by the manufacturer. The customer deserves better in my opinion. I won´t be buying it before we have an official answer about system bus performance. When I bought the old system, I had to sell many computers, buy new ones, test it, sell again, go into the forum, write many messages, and it took years for getting a solid system. And too much money spent in the process. I don´t wanna do it all again, really. And after all, once in a while, I still get overflow with complex routings and mixing.

On the other hand, it IS the most open DAW system of all times. I just wish it worked as advertised. :-?

Also, a place in their server for needed configurations and tweaks, if at all needed with the new system, should be implemented. SC should take the time to test their rig and report any tweaks needed for proper system flow. They shouldn't leave it all for users in forums. Please, SC, if you are reading this, consider a proper, organized database about system requirements (more detailed, hint), AND tweaks and problem solving in your site.

That´s what users really want for a better life when buying your products.

I am not taking merit out of your wonderful DSP/DAW system. But to say it´s THE BEST available REALLY, you guys have a hard work to do on customer support, in my opinion. Still, I´m a user, and I love it. I also recommend it whenever I can for professional studios and musicians, but I must say, installation, configuration, and solid operation, is still last century quality.

I hope the new system is up to this century. Pay $4k, but get the work done, without too much extra work. i´m a musician and producer, not a computer tech, not a programer. I don´t write new DSP plugins. I want to USE it. Record, mix and master music. Hard Audio WORK!

PLUGINS WILL GET MUCH MORE COMPLEX, NOW THAT WE HAVE 10X HORSE POWER! And as a buyer AND ENTHUSIAST of your hardware, I expect no more bus overflows when I get the new XITE system. It´s THAT simple!


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:51 pm 
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overloading a bus is always possible if one just makes an effort.

$4000 for a high end bit of audio is chump change. PTHD is $40,000 and it is also prone to error messages under the right conditions....


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:38 pm 
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I hope the new system is up to this century. Pay $4k, but get the work done, without too much extra work. i´m a musician and producer, not a computer tech, not a programer. I don´t write new DSP plugins. I want to USE it. Record, mix and master music. Hard Audio WORK!

PLUGINS WILL GET MUCH MORE COMPLEX, NOW THAT WE HAVE 10X HORSE POWER! And as a buyer AND ENTHUSIAST of your hardware, I expect no more bus overflows when I get the new XITE system. It´s THAT simple!


Brotha' Man Rafafreddie :D
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I like the way you lay it on the line. :wink:

I hardly ever get overflow on 45 DSP's. but rather optimization windows as I push these cards till they're redlined on the meter. I use hardware reverbs for their editable depth parameters but massive delays since Scope's delays are top shelf plugs.

I know I will be happy mixing 32 channels of GSIF and 24 channels of massive synth polyphony live with my XITE-1 in a few weeks. I will also be synced up to VDAT and run 4 sets of wireless ear monitors, and bring in a Bass and Guitar w/ sub mixed drums. I just hope it will handle all of that while doing live recordings.

I hope you have as much fun as I do. Besides for 4 large, it will pay for itself in 4 weeks.



Nice to see some the old memebers comin' back to chat. :D

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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:49 am 
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double post for some reason...


Last edited by rafafredd on Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:59 am 
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I thought that one of the reasons that XITE was now an external box was that it seperates it from the PC interface (PCI). If thats the case, I dont see any reason why there wouldnt be future cards (the interface between the PC and the XITE) released for PCIe x4 / x16 or whatever. Presumably a software update would be requried for each new interface release.

I could be wrong but when you look at what there offering, Im confident that they have thought all this through.

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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:01 am 
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No... No... In my experience, I did many very complex mixing in PT TDM and HD, and never had problems. It´s ROCK SOLD, much more than any Creamware/SC system as far as I know. Also, you can get a nice PT HD system for much less than $40k. Don´t fool yourself.

Third, I´m in Brazil, so think more or less $8k for the new scope system to come to my hands here, and $8k USD equals $16k BRL, so, really, you get a picture. THAT´S lots of money in here, folks. So, one more reason I must say...

PLEASE, SC, NO MORE BUS BUGS!

If i were SC, I would do my best, and more so that the XITE users NEVER end with a PCI overflow message after buying and setting up he new hadware.

Also, if you run 45DSP with the old sstem and no overflows, please, share your configuration with me, specially MOBO and VIDEO cards. First of all, I want to buy a new computer for my old cards, before I even think about really getting a XITE-1. And hopefully I can get a working system with the old cards after years of trying... I would keep it on the studio for routing, monitoring ad snth stuf together with the new XITE system whenever I have the money to buy it...


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:30 am 
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Warp69 wrote:
The problem with PCI overflow is mostly related to reverbs. SC could use the following solutions :

3) Use onboard RAM
SC could implement additional RAM on the XITE system, but that would add to the complexity of the system when they decide to release additional DSP products, since they would all need onboard RAM and that would probably be too expensive for small DSP cards. The first version of the Scope card had 32MB of onboard RAM, but since the Pulsar didn't, none of the plugins available for the platform use the additional memory.


This kind of system would probably benefit from high speed onboard RAM (like high end graphic cards do). You find now graphic cards with 1GB DDR4 for relatively cheap... I'm putting aside the impact on the software platform, and eventually the devices..


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:37 am 
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O.K. Brotha Man Rafafreddie.

But I have used several different configs as I added more VST's and new apps. I had 3 x DAW's up until recently, all w/ flavors of Gigastudio. All were used live. I had discovered that Type I Pulsar cards were not as friendly as Type II cards for heavy synth work, so swapped them for II's everywhere. However the DP cards for some reason had no troubles and used them in an automated girly band, driven by external effects and external hardware sequencers. The latest config is below, and the best card in my opinion was the dual ADAT/ dual MIDI card. It loads up to the red DSP meter mark and kicks major booty. These cards were used 6 nights a week w/ no troubles. 100% stabilty live where mistakes are not tolerated.

Motherboard Intel DP35DP
eVGA GeForce 5800GT
GSkill DDR2 800 2 x 2 GB sticks.
4 x Raptor's for Gigastudio 4
Corsair 600watt PSU
Disabled USB ports in the Device Manager for Conflict free IRQ settings.

Here's a pic where the external hardware effects occupy the AUX's of the mixers and cannot be viewed as I use the external effects modules. Also have exteranal analog hardware synths routed. All synths are a low useless 2 voice polyphony to allow the routings and effects. I actually kept everything the same and took Multi-Synth's poly up to 4 voices making 16 total, 4 per synth before DSP Overloads occured. This DAWg Will Hunt.

This mixing scenario will just stack lots of plugs and DSP effects everywhere. Synths will get 72 voices of poly in XITE-1 or I will jump from the top of Trump Towers in Las Vegas, as life will not be worth living.

For my explanation and pic, I have included a pic of Brazil's National Treasure ( women )........Alessandra Ambrosia, please find her in Rio in a G-String and send us a pic of this exquisite creature....please. I will fly to Brazil and pay her to let me perform for her while she dances. Of course after I get XITE-1 on stage as described above. :D

This is the first project for XITE-1 using AES /EBU, dual MIDI / dual ADAT, and a 15 DSP booster. 32 MIDI channel operation.

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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:16 am 
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Nice scope setup you got running there, Pal! Thanks brother, for posting your configuration. I´ll try this MOBO next thing for m new Creamware system, I mean, with the old boards..

Brazilian Women... Wow, guys, you do not know how it is so good to live in Brazil in regards to that topic... I don´t even wanna talk about audio gear anymore, after seeing that picture. And yes, many women just like that can be found here anywhere, walking up and down the streets... BEAUTY! :lol: :P


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:52 am 
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(1) I think the xite with its modern PCI-e connection alone will lead to a much better performance on pci bus.

more loadable reverb instances with backwards compatibility.
------------

(2) and further developers will be able to use new modules that run on the bigger xite onchip ram, from what i was told there won`t be onboard ram.

But the onchip ram will be quite big because there are many chips inside. So a reverb developer could offload quite some of the smaller delays onto onchip memory. Which will for sure be in conflict to backwards compatibility to the old scope systems and cards.

->> So the best thing would be if the pci-e is fast enough and drivers are good enough to load anough reverbs without using onchip ram.

The onchip ram maybe cool also for other interesting things. Many sample layers for a synth construction. Interpolation and waveset tables and so on.... all in realtime....

but that stuff would be exclusive for the xite-1 box and maybe only backwards compatible with custom atom tweaking from soniccore side. not the most elegenat solution.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:48 am 
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rafafredd, i've got to say, problems are often the result of hardware combinations, as well as the way that the system is used. my system is rock solid, as solid as ANY pt system. Jimmy's is used for live work and has never failed him(except when he messes with installing new apps). possibly you have a bad mix of hardware or your expectations of performance are beyond what such an INEXPENSIVE system is capable of. this may be a lot of money for YOU, but again, it's not much for gear.

that all said, improvement is a must, there's no reason for new hard and software if performance is going to remain the same. i support you in your desire for an even BETTER Scope with v5.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:39 pm 
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even real hardware fails:

for example my s2000 had crappy midi timing with more than 5-6 midi channels after i purchased it, so i sent it back and it got fixed.

Older mixing desks soemtimes ahve defective channels strips... and so on or noise when moving faders or eq knobs.


So i think Scope really is quite solid if configured right. The small little bugs are really not such a big thing with scope.

The main thing does work very fine. I`ve not yet worked with any software tools that are this stable and solid as scope.

about 1-2 hangs in a year,.... with pure software you normally get weekly crashes etc....

So SC and old creamware crew really has my respect, because scope is not just a simple software. Its an environment, its almost everything from a studio without a sequencer.
Building such a system from ground in such a stable form is a very hard job, starting from well-thought hardware, the great innovative hardware-to-software integration (modular softmodules), flexibility (exchange modules for different needs), quality of the system (audio itsself, fx plug-ins and synth plugins), and ease of use and saving options... and for sure the SFP software itsself.


And even the small things are what makes thats system that great:
- for example the switch on the synths to disable the fx even when switching through presets. Something i really hate with VSTs.
- the SDK, which is very powerful, yet very easy to use.
- ...

every day I use the system, I can feel the enusiasm the developers have put into this platform. its not just a system, its build with love and with very much care on the little detail that makes music making so much more fun.
(and normally powerful products build with extreme entusiasm are the products, that are really expensive)

It would be an awesome system even without the synths at all. But the synths themselves are what makes this platform unique. Plug-in synths that can stand up against the best VA synths from the big players like roland and korg, etc.

Not yet found a VST that i really was impressed over longer than 1 or 2 days.. :lol:

And finally its a system that even ~10 years after appearing on the market, its yet still untouched in what it is and has no comparable substitute from another company.

For sure there are little things that can improve, and thats not unlikely because no real developer of the original dev crew has touched the system for some years. But these things seem to have changed now.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:05 pm 
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Really guys. Don´t take me wrong. i think the system is fantastic, really. Or I wouldn't be using it at all. As I said, I'm a user AND ENTHUSIAST of the system. The only thing I´m saying is...

1) It's kind of cumbersome to install and setup right.

2) Creamware on that time didn't offered much help in a concise and ORGANIZED fashion as there should exist for such a hard to set hardware. We always have to recover to the forum and wait for other more experienced users to come in with a helping hand. (Again, don't get me wrong. It's a great forum, and you are all very helpful guys.)... My point is... recommended hardware database and tweaks list and Questions and answers should be there in the Creamware site. Hopefully, if all that is still needed for setting up SC XITE-1, SC will work on a database for XITE users, with more information. I mean concise and condensed HELP! If they took all the work and time doing such a great system, and I´m sure that´s what it is, it´s not asking too much for something like this. Is it? When I bought my first Creamware, some 10 years ago, I wasn´t really aware of this, and I had too many problems, buying and selling computer hardaware, setting up tweaks, PCI latency parameters, and I had to work for a living. And yes, even with no reverbs, I get PCI errors, when doing complex routing, large channels multi-mixing and many instances of compressors, eq´s, distortion and other plugs.

3) After all this tweaking, buying hardware, etc... my PCI bus problems still occurs when I´m doing hard jobs. And my jobs at mixing always becomes hard. And you know, recording and mixing is a tedious job, meticulous, hard work, and it always crashes near the end, when I need it MOST to work. So, in my opinion, the old cards runs on PCI, but they were not designed with PCI limitations in consideration. You should always consider limitations. And it seems only nowadays motherboards and chipsets are fast enough to let old Creamware cards designed ten years ago to run smoothly. Well, it also means they were really ahead of their time. Yes, that, they were...

4) The question remains. Was XITE-1 designed with PCIe LIMITATIONS in mind. What´s the point in putting a hundred DSP chips inside a box, if PCIe won´t let you use all the chips? There is a simple question I would lke to do... Will XITE-1 users be able to load reverbs, and only reverbs instances (the most problematic plugs for bus overloading, like the old classic reverb from creamware) until all XITE-1 DSP power is full and still have the system working without totally crashing, as we see in the PCI boards? Why don´t someone at SC chimes in, and give us a REAL answer. That would be good to know, and it is a simple and direct TEST anyone cold do. A direct answer is required, in my opinion. Or they should do tests in many MOBOs and publish information about that, if it can´t stand full DSP load with available real world MOBOs. That way, users knows published limitations when buying the system, and could have a point to reach, when configuring it. It wold make the thing much less deceptive for many of the new users.

5) I'll keep using it anyway. I love it. It's the most open and complete of all! There isn't anything better.

6) There are other good systems out there. UAD1, TC electronics and PT are examples. And they are all easier to deal with, but I still think think Creamware is the best, but not if you don´t want any headaches. as I said, Working with PT has always been much easier for me, from installation to the final mix. But, yes, i do like Creamware better, for the reasosn above, and because I feel more confortable with it´s openess in the studio.

7) About money, there are Creamware users all over the world, and if $4k USD is not too much money for someone in Europe, Japan or USA it might be for someone in Africa or Bolivia, specially considering up to 100% import taxes in some countries like mine (Brazil). That's not important in the discussion.

8 ) Regardless of price point, any system should work as advertised and have good user support. Even a $100.00 US dollars soundcard, that today can do wonders, if you know what to buy and how to work with it.

9) I´ve used DSP plugs that sound as great as any Creamware plugins on many platforms, from PT TDM to HD, VST, the old and wonderful Paris, Powercore, UAD1, and many more. The advantage of Creamware is much more than the Plugins, it´s the unmatched routing and module handling, as well as very low latency.

10) I don´t want to beat Creamware at all. Just want to make it better for final hard audio recording and studio users, like me. I´m a 10 years user, and I feel my feedback might do some good at this point.

Quote:
for example my s2000 had crappy midi timing with more than 5-6 midi channels after i purchased it, so i sent it back and it got fixed.


It got fixed by the manufacturer. You do not have to live with the bug.

Quote:
Older mixing desks soemtimes ahve defective channels strips... and so on or noise when moving faders or eq knobs.


I work with designing and building analog audio gear also, for local studios and for my own studio. Change pots and faders, or most of the time, just clean it using proper cleaning sprays, like you also must do with any old computer hardware, including creamware boards in some places where dust should cause problems with time, and your analog gear should work again.

Quote:
It would be an awesome system even without the synths at all. But the synths themselves are what makes this platform unique. Plug-in synths that can stand up against the best VA synths from the big players like roland and korg, etc.


My system is a 17 DSP system. Ok, it´s not the bigger system around, I know. But I´m a professional pianist and keyboard player. I still have to rely on my old Roland 128 voices XV5080 hardware synth, my Korg TR-rack or my new Yamaha MOTIF-ES 128 voices synth for playing with good enough polyphony for normal brazilian jazz piano playing style, I mean, with cords , bass, melody, improvisation and all at the same time. For electric and electronic style with simpler lines, Creamware does the job very well, and the synths are really very good. But the lack of virtual and realistic instruments in the Creamware platform is a pity. In that territory it really can´t stand up to the competiton, namely Korg, Roland Yamaha, or all the VSTis available out there, or Gigastudio libraries, Reason (here is one that sounds JUST GREAT for all kind of synth and sampling work), etc... Where are all the good realistic instruments libraries for Creamware S-type samplers? Answer: there aren't any. Please, point me to a solution, if you think I´m wrong here... Also, in my opinion, for many kind of styles, nothing sounds like a MOTIF.


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 Post subject: Re: New PCI-e Buss Expectations
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 12836
Location: PROJECT WINDOW
SC will be silent as every other developer is. Actually we have many lurkers here waiting for small bits of information on it's capabilities.

I have no idea what I am getting into other than massive synths and mixing which I believe is a good start. Just look what these guys did while they were wearing Frank Hunds handcuffs.

I watched this platform mature for years before I bought into it.

I am putting all of my eggs in one basket, that's how much I trust them.

I would be honored to do all of the tests for plugs like the MV PCI test, etc. I owe it to the members here who helped me, and the creators. I never made money for three gigs a week until I used Scope w/ hardware sequencers and automated lights etc.

I am also a Pianist so I relate to your desires as well. I will be the Guinnes Pig / Lab Rat.

I truly believe that Holger and JBowen, and the new team were held back by a guy who didn't have an open mind when it came to business, etc.

These chaps are putting their heart and soul into what I believe they wanted to do long ago and were not allowed to.

As The Good Admiral Once Said..............................

I Fear That All We Have Done Is Awaken A Sleeping Giant, And Fill Him With A Modualr Resolve............. December 7th, 1941, Somewhere West of the Hawaiian Islands.

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https://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/solaris-demos-1
http://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/sol ... akt-tunes/


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