Profit 5 A,D and R not working as original Prophet 5!?

Discuss the Creamware Noah

Moderators: valis, garyb

Post Reply
Henrik
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Henrik »

Hi,

I was trying to recreate the original Pro5 patches on Noah Profit 5. The results sounded really strange so I looked into the service manual for Prophet 5.

Filter and Amplifier Attack, Decay, Release on Noah's goes from 0 = 1ms, 5 = 8.192sec, 10 = 16.392sec lineary.

Original Pro5 has a different control:
0 = ~1 ms
6 = 1 sec
10 = "greater than 20 sec"

As I remember it then its more like an exponential function and not lineary.

Reference:
http://www.physicsenterprises.andrews.e ... _04_06.gif

This means that we can not reuse original Patch sheets without making a conversion table or Creamware to correct the controls.
I don't really know which is "best" but with only a 128 level control (why not use the 16k range instead?) it might not be posible to "exactly" reproduce original Pro5 patches.
kybernaut_01
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by kybernaut_01 »

The question here would be: what original P5? Revision? Basically, CW claims that its emulations allow to use your old patch sheets...

The Profit-5/Pro-12 is modeled after a Rev2 Prophet-5 (this is at least what CW says, even if magazines use to write that it's a Rev3 model, as SoS recently did... )
Anna Lüse
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Elektropolis
Contact:

Post by Anna Lüse »

to use your old blank patch sheets...
User avatar
Shroomz~>
Posts: 5669
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: The Blue Shadows

Post by Shroomz~> »

photocopies maybe, but nobody in their right mind is gonna start scribbling on original Prophet patch sheets unless they've kept them when selling a Prophet .. and even then it would be sacrilage.
kybernaut_01
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by kybernaut_01 »

On 2006-06-14 10:22, Henrik wrote:
Rev 2 uses SSM 2050 EG chip which also has exponential approach from 1ms to "over 10 seconds".

Most Rev 2 SSM data-sheets here:
http://users.cybercity.dk/~dsl110182/ssm2050d.gif
Henrik, not sure if you're are interpreting these dtata sheets correctly...

As far as I understand it, there are two voltages (not the times!) that are exponential:

- the input voltage(s) from the pot
- the output voltage of the EG chip

What comes into play in the first case is0 that a typical analog potentiometer outputs an exponential voltage when turned in a "linear fashion". I hope you understand what I mean.

kybernaut
Henrik
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Henrik »

I see where you are going :smile:

Yeah the Z80 reads the pot (being linear or exponetial or whatever), converts the read value to something that controls the EG chip. So I can't really use the datasheet of the EG chip without also looking at what the Z80 software behaves on whatever it reads from the pot :smile:

So what I am interesting in here is:
Does Noah's Pro5 A D and R match with the behaviour of the original Prophet 5

a) Rev3 is not linear (0=0.001s, 6=1s, 10=20s)
2) Noah is linear (0=0.001s, 0.6 = ~1s, 5 = ~8s, 10 = ~16s)
Ã) Rev 2 and Rev 3 both have EG chips with exponential translation of control voltage to time of the A, D and R timings.

Does anyone have a real Prophet 5 and can compare against Noah Pro5? I can't make any original Prophet 5 presets sound correct unless I adjust the ADR pots a lot.

So my plan was to understand how to translate original Prophet 5 patch-data (midi sysex) into Noah Pro5 midi CC# data and write a program that sends those original Prophet5 patches to Noah.

:smile:
kybernaut_01
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by kybernaut_01 »

I see :smile: While I don't have a original Prophet -5, I can tell you something else:

Rumour has it, that Anna Lüse from CWA recreated the original Prophet patches for the Pro~12. This probably means taht some adjustment ist necessary due to subtle part variances or whatever.

But still, CW's claim of correctly interpreting patch sheets is there. I also remember that some testers from certain magazines verified that with Minimax and Pro~One and reported that it works pretty accurate. So why should this not be the case for Pro~12?
User avatar
Shroomz~>
Posts: 5669
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: The Blue Shadows

Post by Shroomz~> »

Check out John Bowen's new semi-modular prophet if you haven't already. He's posted a screenshot .. <a href="http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 0">HERE</a>
Henrik
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Henrik »

Okay all this seems to be a User Interface issue. I trusted the numbers written by the NOAH PC SW.

Doing some quick oscilloscope measurements with Amplitude Attack:

1-2 ms at 0
1 sec at 5.8 or so (so close enough to real prophet 5 specification)
around 16 secs at 10.

:smile: so sorry for the disturbance. It seems to work quite close enough. Phew
kybernaut_01
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by kybernaut_01 »

On 2006-06-15 10:01, Henrik wrote:
Okay all this seems to be a User Interface issue.
True, the UI is only a very rough representation of the current knob value. There only a handful of possible positions and each of them stands for a certain sub-range in the full 0-127 range.
Post Reply