An interesting site here with population stats. It's not a favourite of mine, just one I found today!
http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section ... ds2002.htm
I find it strange how, when I was a kid, it was population that was the terrible crisis looming for the future. Then the focus seemed to shift to the Cold War and nuclear weapons. After the cold war ended it immediately switched to the environment and greenhouse effect. Perhaps it will switch back to population soon ?
I wonder how these "tides of concern" come about and whether they really reflect the greatest problem ?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2002-10-04 21:54 ]</font>
Complete OT: What happened 9/11/2001 in Pentagon?
Sounds nice, but what does it really mean ?
Do you think that subtracting, say, 50 million Germans from the world would be more help to the globe's stability, health and long-term prospects, than one billion Indians ? ( Obviously this is just a thought experiment !!
)
Or would subtracting all the western nations be a big help for the planet ? The "big consumers" would be gone, but also almost all of the R&D . . .
And I'm always interested in this 10/90 cliche. What resources are we talking about ?
Do you think that subtracting, say, 50 million Germans from the world would be more help to the globe's stability, health and long-term prospects, than one billion Indians ? ( Obviously this is just a thought experiment !!
)Or would subtracting all the western nations be a big help for the planet ? The "big consumers" would be gone, but also almost all of the R&D . . .
And I'm always interested in this 10/90 cliche. What resources are we talking about ?
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algorhythm
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still though, it doesn't necessarily entail 'disappearing' folks - changes patterns of consumption is another solution. SUV sales are still high though, so I doubt that will change anytime soon.
That reminds me of something nice and subversive, the way I like it: http://www.changingtheclimate.com - coming soon to a tailgate near you - hehehe
That reminds me of something nice and subversive, the way I like it: http://www.changingtheclimate.com - coming soon to a tailgate near you - hehehe
rhetorical.read further instead of having strictly an emotional response and getting stuck.eliminating the west WOULD change the whole dynamic.math is very old and the west does not own it.in fact, the west imported it from africa then asia and the islamic world.the reason this is not apparent today is that when the knowledge was appropriated,the libraries and schools were destroyed.On 2002-10-05 10:22, Spirit wrote:On 2002-10-04 22:45, garyb wrote:
...the problem becomes too much of a CERTAIN population...
really tho-
i don't advocate killing all these innocent and mostly nice people.what i said was,the REAL problem is in a MINDSET.(i.e. bad ideas)this mindset is taught to the very young and becomes ingrained in the character.it does however come from outside the human even if the poor human is very suseptable as though it DID come from him.
basically niceness and caring for ones family(all creation)which is the basic nature of people,(most of us are nice to grandma and babies and if not we call that mean one damaged)is the key to people having GOOD lives.all the worlds shortages are ARTIFICIAL.(they are the result of artiface,peoples' DOing.)
with the right attitude,since we all live amongst such great wealth(almost unimaginable in it's richness!)there is MORE than enuff for all for any conceivable future,and moreover some can still receive EXTRA goodnesss in appreshilove for their good works.
but you'd(rhetorical) rather be bad and suffer and blame factors other than your own behavior(who mentioned suv's?some need them some don't)
why do we glorify gangsters thugs and killers?yeah o.k. they're kinda cool,but only as a fantasy,in reality they make this place hell.(yes hell, the place of neverending excruciating suffering,just ask those in afghanistan,those in kosovo,those in congo or ruwanda,those in phillipines or east timor or those who live in the middle of any large city)
(for spirit in particular,)how are the aborigines in your country?are they scummy junkies like the natives and africans in my country?were they once in paradise?do you know what they know?not your personal doing i know,even as i know you're a good person.
respect to all(for you're in the image of god and even the thugs would like it to be all gooood).....
Your vision of history strikes me as a little unusual. Mathematics from Africa, then Asia, then the Islamic world ? Perhaps you're refering to the Egyptians, but their mathematics was quite primitive. I thought the Greeks pioneered maths: Pythagoras and co ? The Arab nations kept a lot of it "alive" during the Dark Ages, but besides the numeral "0" (thought to originate in India) I'm not aware that much was added to this body of knowledge until the European renaissance. But I'm interested in your sources - I obviously have gaps !
And no one is advocating killing anyone!
It was a mind experiment, a mere philosophical "what if". Just like saying: "what if Japan slid into the sea?".
And while I like your "theory of nice" is it of any practical use in global terms ? If a part of the world educated its citizens from birth in caring, sharing, loving giving etc, would this have any real effect in improving the world ?
This leads on to your next point about the ruined cultures and lives of many native peoples. Yes, the aboriginals in Australia mostly live in terrible conditions; their life expectancy is much lower than the general population; their education is poor; their health poor, drug addiction and petrol sniffing is common. This is sometimes then paraded internationally as an example of the beastly racists of Australia.
But this has happened in spite of MASSIVE payments and hundreds of well-intentioned programs. They're also now some of the biggest landowners in the world. Just last week a tribe was handed back a slab of land four times bigger than Belgium.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia-p ... 284555.stm
But none of it seems to help. My family has a lot of contact with aboriginals. My sister, for example, has devoted her life to teaching aboriginals in remote towns and camps. The stories I caould tell of the waste and cynicism that has gown up around the misguided benevolance of government are quite shocking . . .
In this respect the simple path of "nice" has not been the answer
And no one is advocating killing anyone!
It was a mind experiment, a mere philosophical "what if". Just like saying: "what if Japan slid into the sea?".And while I like your "theory of nice" is it of any practical use in global terms ? If a part of the world educated its citizens from birth in caring, sharing, loving giving etc, would this have any real effect in improving the world ?
This leads on to your next point about the ruined cultures and lives of many native peoples. Yes, the aboriginals in Australia mostly live in terrible conditions; their life expectancy is much lower than the general population; their education is poor; their health poor, drug addiction and petrol sniffing is common. This is sometimes then paraded internationally as an example of the beastly racists of Australia.
But this has happened in spite of MASSIVE payments and hundreds of well-intentioned programs. They're also now some of the biggest landowners in the world. Just last week a tribe was handed back a slab of land four times bigger than Belgium.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia-p ... 284555.stm
But none of it seems to help. My family has a lot of contact with aboriginals. My sister, for example, has devoted her life to teaching aboriginals in remote towns and camps. The stories I caould tell of the waste and cynicism that has gown up around the misguided benevolance of government are quite shocking . . .
In this respect the simple path of "nice" has not been the answer
My family are Nyoongar, and I am a wadjbulla.
Here in WA there are two distinct worlds - one that is very mistrustful of white folks and one that is quite ignorant of black folks. There's not a lot of crossover.
Many whitefellas just leave it at "we give them all this and look what they do" and care no further.
Whole nations are lumped together as one "aboriginal" group, when 250 years ago there was the equivalent of 30 Europes here.
This makes things very difficult - all aboriginal people are expected to get on with each other , something not expected of the wider Australian population.
Spirit, you are not the first or last person to speak with self imbued authority on this matter, but I'm afraid your missionary sounding views do not help matters one bit.
Stick to what you know - if you don't live in a world, try to be a little more understanding of it, even if you can't put yourself in others' shoes.
btw the Martu claim also mentions this - "Although the Aborigines will be allowed to hunt, gather, fish and use the area's natural resources, they will not have ownership of the rich mineral and petroleum deposits which exist there."
You left that bit out.
"Biggest landowners" means something else other than what you are implying.
This is not an issue to play around with in your head - it is out there in the real world.
Here in WA there are two distinct worlds - one that is very mistrustful of white folks and one that is quite ignorant of black folks. There's not a lot of crossover.
Many whitefellas just leave it at "we give them all this and look what they do" and care no further.
Whole nations are lumped together as one "aboriginal" group, when 250 years ago there was the equivalent of 30 Europes here.
This makes things very difficult - all aboriginal people are expected to get on with each other , something not expected of the wider Australian population.
Spirit, you are not the first or last person to speak with self imbued authority on this matter, but I'm afraid your missionary sounding views do not help matters one bit.
Stick to what you know - if you don't live in a world, try to be a little more understanding of it, even if you can't put yourself in others' shoes.
btw the Martu claim also mentions this - "Although the Aborigines will be allowed to hunt, gather, fish and use the area's natural resources, they will not have ownership of the rich mineral and petroleum deposits which exist there."
You left that bit out.
"Biggest landowners" means something else other than what you are implying.
This is not an issue to play around with in your head - it is out there in the real world.
yes,zero is older than many know.there were great civilizations long before egypt(the sphinx was old when the pharoes found it buried in the sand)there were also great civilizations after egypt(where IS carthage today?)....also, when a population is ruined by reeducating the children,when those children have children they pass the virus down.after a coupla generations past the "schools",the population can't believe any other reality than the one imposed.
and yes,niceness works.not condesending "help" to make others more like us,but the simple care for your family,the sight that all humans have dignity and the right to the good things of this earth,even if one doesn't like them.(it is no more right to bomb afghani families than american families.it is no more right to slave your mother than some chinese kids mother.)
once again,it's mindset and values or what one sees as the point to life.
and yes,niceness works.not condesending "help" to make others more like us,but the simple care for your family,the sight that all humans have dignity and the right to the good things of this earth,even if one doesn't like them.(it is no more right to bomb afghani families than american families.it is no more right to slave your mother than some chinese kids mother.)
once again,it's mindset and values or what one sees as the point to life.
I think that we all should treat this stuff with a little bit more carefull and diplomacy...On 2002-10-03 16:06, hubird wrote:
Could it be that Bush set up 9-11 by himself, in order to definitely rule the whole world under the cloak of the war against terrorism?
For two causes:
First, people had die that day: Be carefull for the familys and for the US people who is blind for the impact and for the information campaign.
Second: Because if we dont take care about those things´, all that we might say, it wouln´t be taken as truly as we want.
So...
I think that none of us can say "Yes/No" to the theory that the "Ultra Capitalysm" done that. And like about another things we have no access to the true, we just can give our opinion, so please all here respect the other opinions, because its so "crazy" and "stupid" like all the others...because we have no really prooves.
Again, talking about the Auto-terrorism.
The History may help, and trully...
PEARL HARBOUR...
Japan wasn´t seen coming thrue the Pacific? thats too match for me.
A fact: before PH the US people didn´t want to get in to the war...
After the atacks? of course... yes...
That shows for me that this things are good to change the common sense about anything...
DJATWORK
Spirit...On 2002-10-04 21:52, Spirit wrote:
I find it strange how, when I was a kid, it was population that was the terrible crisis looming for the future.
Perhaps it will switch back to population soon ?
The last week an economist told me a very smart thing that I couldn´t see by myself.
You can´t just eliminate 1000.000.000 million people, or wathever so...
THe capitalysm first had separate some "places" where the people would just "hardly survive", without any economy development. Africa is a clear example.
MAny "humanitary helps" might be there, including the UN ones, but thats only a way to make them "stop" being most populated.
Now, that is not only happenning in AFrica.
In all the countrys, all the economys, the unemployment part of the population is bigger every day...
So with 5%, 10%, 15% of unemployment people, the next generations would not "ask for work" to the governments like rhe present generation does.
So the "job" won´t be a "right" like today it seems to be, but a "provilege".
Less people will work, less familys will be developed. Thats another way con control the population...
Its very sad to me. Job has many to do with Vocation, and that with people mission in the life.
If we can´t develope owr vocation in life, what makes us human beings?
SO, population problem will be solved...
THE FUTURE (now to 15 years) PROBLEM will be THE WATER...POTABLE WATER will make Wars...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DJATWORK on 2002-10-06 07:13 ]</font>
Wayne, just like in the wider Australian community, you show again how discussion of Aboriginal issues is virtually impossible without someone feeling misunderstood or insulted in some way not intended, or their opinions waved away as worthless. FYI I have had a lot of experience with outback communities, mostly in the Territory and I speak of direct experience of both myself and family. But no matter, I'm interested in debate, not argument.
I shall not speak of these matters again.
ps: who's idea was this OT forum ?
I shall not speak of these matters again.
ps: who's idea was this OT forum ?
Interesting ideas...On 2002-10-06 07:06, DJATWORK wrote:
THE FUTURE (now to 15 years) PROBLEM will be THE WATER...POTABLE WATER will make Wars...
And just recently I read about a potential "water-war" between Israel and Lebanon:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle ... 261060.stm