Definitive Scope PCI card host PC?

Please remember the terms of your membership agreement.

Moderators: valis, garyb

User avatar
Bud Weiser
Posts: 1443
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:29 am
Location: nowhere land

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:09 pm

garyb wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:45 pm

i AM interested in the XITE's performance on the newer motherboards. i have asked Holger for info on what rigs the v7 tests were done on.
8)

Cool !
Can´t wait for the results !

:)

Bud
CFD,- the studio standard :wink:

fraz
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Springfield !

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by fraz » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:43 pm

garyb wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:45 pm
...or people can use an older motherboard.
the PCI slot is obsolete. there are a lot of older motherboards that offer great performance and that have PCI slots that work. SC cannot test all the new motherboards, and there aren't many(any?) that have 3 slots.

i AM interested in the XITE's performance on the newer motherboards. i have asked Holger for info on what rigs the v7 tests were done on.
Yes OK Garyb PCI is obselete - Most of my PCI slots are on socket 1150 - I did get an AMD FM2+ Asus Crossblade Ranger 2 PCI and AsRock FM2 A88X+ Fatality Killer 3 PCI slots - I will test these in time - These boards are not available now however, however, :)

MSI have a current range, obselete or not - :) 3 or 4 boards that have different colours but are the same boards pretty much identical and have 2 PCI slots - Very useful for people here - that is if they work with Xite and the PCI cards. And they are current boards on B350 chipset.

So if a word was spoken to S|C :) the boards could be made to work (if they don't already) and some people may be grateful / happy about this in the absence of consumer PCI slots (obselete) as apposed to the industrial ones that are usually quite pricey.

And they would work with Xite and the PCI cards - An example below

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B350-PC-MATE

OK it's AMD AM4 platform, not as good as Intel probably - but these boards won't be made for much longer - maybe another generation, maybe not -

The boards are not overly pricey for new boards - around 80-90 - If they did work I'm sure some people would buy them for Xite /PCI cards.

How many more people will post here in the next 3 months asking about PCI slots on motherboards? - :)

User avatar
valis
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: West Coast USA
Contact:

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by valis » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:57 pm

This is just my opinion, and please exclude Xite for the most part from this point:

Since we're essentially maintaining legacy systems for cards that S|C no longer sells, the obligations of S|C to make cards that they earn little income off of work better is very small from a business perspective (software updates and 3rd party sales will bring in some cash, but nothing compared to Xite purchases if those sold better). We should of course be thankful that they are still maintained, the only other company in the audio world that I have soundcard drivers from for so long is RME...

Also since these are legacy cards, it is to be *expected* that we will be using legacy systems. Even with industrial solutions, the numbers just aren't there compared to the past to fully QA modern solutions and bridge chips. This means they MAY work, but S|C will not be able to fully vet all platforms nor will PCI bridge chipsets be fully debugged for our uses. Intel's QA hours are 100x what the average competitor does, so their chipsets that were designed with PCI in mind--AND that we have mountains of collective user experience with here on PZ--will still be the safest 'known good' solutions.

So, this is why I propose collecting as much info as we can on current & past boards that will be easy for our userbase to find, configure and use. Once we have enough of this info, we will post it to the front page in an easy to digest format and hopefully that helps all of us out in the longterm.

Lastly, If none of these platforms provides enough cpu performance and/or support for modern features (NVMe, USB 3.1c etc etc) then I might suggest an Xite upgrade or do as I have done and run the Scope machine in a legacy system alongside your 'native' powerhouse...

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 21707
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by garyb » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:32 pm

it's not up to SC to make various motherboards work, it's up to the manufacturers.
PCI slots are on some current motherboards, but that doesn't make them the same as "traditional" PCI slots. they are tacked on to the PCIe bus with a 3rds party controller. the design may or may not work well, but since it's intended for legacy LAN cards and the like, it probably does not matter how well it works to most users. only Scope users may complain and that is no concern to the motherboard makers.

there are TONS of useful designs made in the last few years and many, if not most of those, will do everything that the latest models will, except maybe in theory. many specs are "up to", which is code for, "if someone actually made software that used these features....".

the whole thing is a huge mountain made from a molehill. why not just use a machine that the card is happy in. the whole mindset is so wasteful. people spend an incredible amount of money on a constant stream of new computers, but their studio skills don't improve. their mixing doesn't improve, they get the same amount of work done, and don't buy new cards or XITEs at the same time. the same 18 year-old card is still used, so what is the important component? what is to be built around?

a 15dsp card was $2500. and XITE is some $4000, but a computer that was cheap in comparison and that will be replaced in a couple of years gets the priority?

is this about making music? because if it's not, then to me it's bullshit.

again, this is my personal opinion and not an official SC proclamation. i have nothing to do with development or programming or policy.

User avatar
valis
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: West Coast USA
Contact:

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by valis » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:48 pm

I agree with you gary, but the fact that the entire tech/computing industry has pushed people into thinking they need to buy new toys constantly or 'get left behind' is out of our control. Let's work on that guide that lists options for users, and maybe include some of your thoughts in regards to what level of performance is needed for the typical Scoper :)

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 21707
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by garyb » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:05 pm

ok, but it's not for me to say, what's best for people.
i'm not aiding insanity though, either.

right now, i'd just tell people to stick with socket 775, 1366, 1156, and 1150. avoid 1155. everything else is an experiment. maybe next week, 1151 can be added to the list.

User avatar
valis
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: West Coast USA
Contact:

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by valis » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:35 pm

I'm not in that position either.

But, let's say I wanted to buy a prebuilt machine off of ebay for peanuts that would replace my aging u320 SCSI using 2001 era Xeon, what are your recommendations? I know you've given a few in the past, so what will still be findable on ebay?

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 21707
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by garyb » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:54 pm

anything with those processor types will work great!
i use a lot of Core2 powered HP workstations, XW4400/4600, Z400 etc.
these are more than enough for most use and they're cheap, $75-150 with Quadro video cards and 24/7 use build quality.
there are plenty of desktops and workstations up to 1150 for bargain prices, but one needs to be sure it's a reputable seller and that the features match the user's needs. ALL PCs with 775/1366/1156/1150 sockets that i know of work. all of them, unless the computer itself is broken.

User avatar
Bud Weiser
Posts: 1443
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:29 am
Location: nowhere land

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:13 pm

garyb wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:54 pm

these are more than enough for most use and they're cheap, $75-150 with Quadro video cards and 24/7 use build quality.
Well,- and those "cheap" 24/7 build-quality servers have already how many years of 24/7 operation under their belt ?
I understand the intention using these machines w/ the background of SCOPE not running perfect on other socket/chipset machines.
But who want´s tinkering w/ old machines for the rest of life ?
I myself I did it all for so long,- but now I really want something running on new hardware and when it does, not even think about it for the next years.
In fact, that´s why I bought XITE-1 even I own a 15DSP card.

:)

Bud
CFD,- the studio standard :wink:

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 21707
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by garyb » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:03 pm

you know, it doesn't matter how long they've run.
i have used them 12, maybe 15 times, i have 4 right now. they're VERY dependable. really.

i never tinker with computers. i got over that years ago. i fix computers that people tinker with. if you don't tinker with them, they will run for years and years. electronics only die from heat, shock, manufacturing defects(which can kill a brand new computer), and planned obsolescence. the last problem isn't one that commercial products usually have. it's not needed. what is needed is reliability. those products will be replaced as a matter of course, anyway. what WILL fail is anything mechanical, like an old harddrive. always use a new drive.

fraz
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Springfield !

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by fraz » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:50 am

Yes, it could possibly be customer / user inter-action on a forum like this, that results in someone getting in touch with S|C, who in turn gets in touch with board makers with requests for BIOS updates / and any other optimizations for PCI / PCI-e if this is possible that would result in a greater compatibility list, which in turn may result in more sales for S|C in the form of Xite purchases and NEW customers.

Even older platforms could be improved 1155, 1151 Z170 etc...

Some platforms work, sort of - If anyone here needs a list of boards / sockets / chipsets for this purpose I could be of assistance for a couple / few weeks if that would be helpful. If it isn't fair enough I won't mention it again :) - Happy Christmas /Happy New Year - !

edit - the bugs may need sorting 1st - then maybe compatibility afterwards (maybe)

fraz
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Springfield !

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by fraz » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:28 pm

bigovum wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:10 am
Hi All. Great to see v7 released. I’m thinking of bringing my 3 cards out of retirement. I want a modern quiet PC to house them running Windows 10. I’ve done the Xeon Win XP builds recommended years ago here; there must be a better way? There seems to be a few new motherboards that have PCi slots... Have external enclosures improved?

So, what’s a modern, quiet, PC setup look like?

Thanks for any help and thanks for still being here; I’m looking forward to getting set up again.
Just coming back with a little info on a board that has 2 x PCI slots - Asus Z270-K - Based on the assumption this will work with PCI cards it looks like a very good board with the newer technologies on compared to the older (but good) chipsets - Available on Amazon

User avatar
valis
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: West Coast USA
Contact:

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by valis » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:30 pm

Thanks fraz, we would need confirmation that it is indeed known working good, but that's a good lead!

Also, in regards to feedback between S|C and the motherboard companies who still provide PCI slots, I do think that's extremely hopeful and positive but perhaps not so realistic. If I were to hazard a guess, the priority for S|C to debug systems that are no longer being sold by them is probably not nearly as high as dealing with Scope (V7!) issues, 3rd party developer requests and day to day operations. Combine that with the fact that many of these hardware companies have completely different staffing, reporting software/QA staff policies and so on...

Intel leads the industry in both QA hours (at least 10x the competition on their larger product lines) and support issues being resolved, followed by non consumer companies like SuperMicro & ECS (now Dell), HP and the like. Behind this are the consumer companies, and here Asus & Gigabyte have the bulk of the consumer market to respond to for bug reports, with each company after being a smaller & smaller slice. I dealt with this some years back when I worked for a video hardware company that made a box that, much like scope, required a host PC.

This is why we should be compiling our own information, and then if some of that can be fed to the companies and S|C both, great!

fraz
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:00 pm
Location: Springfield !

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by fraz » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:44 am

Thanks Valis,

I was thinking, if we take a board chipset that works, comparing it against ANY board chipset that does not work - What would it actually take to get it fixed?

From previous discussions, others mentioned PCI or PCI-e implementation, but what would it take?, and how long would it take for the fixes to be implemented by Asus, MSI, Gigabyte and AsRock? - That is if it was to be implemented? - Then the answer of this should explain how difficult it would be

I did read somewhere about "white lists" for devices that are "allowed" to the ones that are not "allowed" - to work - I was thinking maybe the issues could be fixed quite easily, but I don't know all that is entailed in achieving this.

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 21707
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by garyb » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:43 am

fraz, your logic does not apply in this case.

comparing a chipset that does work with one that does not, won't necessarily tell anything. there may or MAY NOT be anything to fix. things work the way they work. if the problem is between chipset and driver, then fixing the driver MIGHT eliminate the problem. if it's a bios-level issue with the chipset, then there MIGHT be a bios update to fix this, because it might affect other things besides our limited hardware issues.

if it's a PCI to PCIe problem, then probably nothing can be done.

it's not a whitelist problem.

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 21707
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by garyb » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:02 pm

ok, here is what was used for testing v7 at SC.

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/PRIME-Z270-A/

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/PRIME-Z270-K/

For 3 x PCI2: ASUS H81-PLUS
But can only house 16 GB RAM, for this one CPU can be Intel Core i5 4690K - 3.5 GHz with Kingston Value RAM - DDR3 - 16 GB

User avatar
Bud Weiser
Posts: 1443
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:29 am
Location: nowhere land

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by Bud Weiser » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:51 pm

garyb wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:02 pm
ok, here is what was used for testing v7 at SC.
o.k. and thx a lot !
Now we´re talking ...
These were both tested with XITE-1 ???
garyb wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:02 pm
For 3 x PCI2: ASUS H81-PLUS
But can only house 16 GB RAM, for this one CPU can be Intel Core i5 4690K - 3.5 GHz with Kingston Value RAM - DDR3 - 16 GB
I guess w/ "PCI2" you meant "SCOPE PCI card gen2" ???

Yes ?

:)

Bud
CFD,- the studio standard :wink:

User avatar
valis
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: West Coast USA
Contact:

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by valis » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:40 pm

Yes, please let us know what that system was validated for, so it can also be added to the information for the site frontend. Ty!

I'm also going to crosspost some info from a thread we have elsewhere on these forums now...

User avatar
garyb
Posts: 21707
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by garyb » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:51 pm

i think it was a Holger mistype. i used copy/paste.

3 PCI slots. the Z270 board only has 2.

User avatar
Bud Weiser
Posts: 1443
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:29 am
Location: nowhere land

Re: Definitive PC?

Post by Bud Weiser » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:57 pm

garyb wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:51 pm
i think it was a Holger mistype. i used copy/paste.

3 PCI slots. the Z270 board only has 2.
O.k.,- but what happened w/ XITE-1D and XITE-1?
Was z270 tested w/ those 2 boxes and what were the results ?

I think we´re interested in 100% data thruput and not only "some" and so called "it works" ...

I remember, some devices worked better w/ XITE-1D than w/ XITE-1 ... IIRC some ZARG devices ... and just only because there´s only ONE (1) DSP in a DSP slot out of FOUR (4) in opposite to THREE (3) DSPs in an array of DSPs inside each DSP slot in XITE-1.

So,- there´s hope some "DSP asignment routine(s)" might be optimized,- or might not ... who knows ?
Maybe there´s progress for the next/upcoming v7.01 update ...
We dunno!

Results w/ PCI cards is not what interests me much since we can use ´em in older systems w/ satisfaction.
So,- what´s up w/ XITE-1 ?

:)
Bud
CFD,- the studio standard :wink:

Post Reply