Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

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dante
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Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by dante » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:54 am

I was under the impression there was a dependency on an AKAI made DLL which was 32 bit code. This being the case, and AKAI never making a 64 bit DLL, I cant see how STS would ever work reliably on 64 bit or be expected to by anyone.

The only chance would be if someone reversed engineered the DLL (without the original IP or spec), and even then, this could have legal implications. ( unless it was specifically made open source or something like that...) In fact thats what AKAI should have done but they may have been done and dusted way before x64 came along...

So, I would conclude its in the product for people that a) want to run 32 bit or b) people who work within its limitations on 64 bit. Eg. I dont see any sense in S|C ripping it from the product when some people can still use it.

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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by Nestor » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:00 pm

To be honest, Kontakt blows it so, so far away…, that I don’t think anyone would today hold any interest on it anymore. If I’m wrong, I would be extremely surprised at the reasons given. There are even free sample players that would work faster, better and more reliably than any STS does. I loved it much, but its time I think, it’s well over.
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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by dante » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:08 pm

I know this is old ground - but - Im old too... :o . Will Kontakt load AKAI samples ? If it can do without having to use a chicken system that would be a way forward.

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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by cortone » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:25 pm

I'm very much a dilettante in this area, but I don't think your general assumption is correct. See here:

https://blog.mattmags.com/2007/06/30/ac ... -bit-code/

Now, that doesn't take into account this specific dll situation, or whether the real-time aspects of Scope may foil the methods described in the article.

Aren't some of the other sample modules that have been updated with Scope 7 also loading AKAI samples? If so, that would suggest that there is a solution, but not necessarily an easy update for the extensive functionality of the STS devices, in particular time stretching.

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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by Bud Weiser » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:02 pm

Nestor wrote:If I’m wrong, I would be extremely surprised at the reasons given. There are even free sample players that would work faster, better and more reliably than any STS does. I loved it much, but its time I think, it’s well over.
Well, the answer is quite "simple" ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I mentioned in another tread already but cannot find it ATM,-
WHEN you are old enough and own the original hardware incl. all the sample libraries,- and in my case that´s still 1 S-1000 and 2 S-1100 as well as a EMU E64 samplers and 2 Oberheim DPX-1 (sample players) and own at least 1 SCOPE PCI card or/and XITE-1 as well (I own both too), you´ll recognize the STS samplers sound excellent compared to the original hardware and not enough, the filters in STS sound much better than any filter in AKAI hardware samplers.

Kontakt ...

I own Komplete 7 ...
I imported countless sample CDs into Halion and Kontakt using CDXtract,- the almost complete EMU EIII library too,- and I have all these EII "Universe of Sounds" and factory stuff left ...
The AKAI library sounds mediocre in Kontakt when format converted,- but not in STS since it loads AKAI sample CDs.
According to EMU,- I´d wish we had direct import into STS, but also EMU import into Kontakt is mediocre,- and more than AKAI is.

Don´t forget,- when converting sample formats and program parameters, that´s the digital info only.
The sound of the hardware isn´t included and that´s SSM/CEM, AKAI / Roland and EMU (Z-Plane) filters and VCAs, sometimes also discrete design using OTAs ...
Its´s absolutely the same like it is w/ vintage synths.
Now don´t think I´m a purist ... at least I WAS a pro for about 40 years and used what was available in new technology when I was able to afford it.
I take what works and when I was touring, I urgently NEEDED gear that works.

Now you might come up and say, "who needs those old sample libraries anyway ?" and "all these gigabyte Kontakt libraries are awesome".

And I say: "Yes, they are awesome but every idiot buys these libraries and all use ´em and sound the same while going different ways is already fresh again and one of these ways is using the old libraries which were good enough creating tons of millionseller hits as also esoteric artwork in the past and still can.
It´s all about how you or any other user prefers to use samples in his composition/arrangements.
OTOH, I agree on realistic samples of acoustic instruments like orchestra, guitar and piano work (but don´t sound) better in Kontakt,- up to now !

But there´s also Kurzweil offering very usable orchestral library stuff in hardware instruments using small ROM size (PC3 series) and latest FORTE series which streams from about 3 gigabytes of flash memory while booting in only a few seconds vs. the KORG Kronos running Linux; WINE and native VSTis.

Who tells us when STS sampler(s) will be upgraded, what features we´ll see then ?
The sound is great already ... but maybe it will stream from disc in future too,- who knows ?

So, I don´t prefer using samples for synth sounds ´cause my preference is hardware synths followed by SCOPE DSP and the there are a few native VSTis l use too.
Most VSTis I check out I leave behind very quick.
I also hate the hunt after the latest and greatest as also fastest computer all the time just only because band limited OSCs and zero feedback filters in native software eat CPU at breakfast.
But there are a lot of noises and sampled instruments quite usable in pro productions even they are 16Bit/44.1K and sample length is "short" (which is in deed relative).

When I look at the legendary Clavia Nord DDrum III drum sampler, which I loved a lot,- that was all AKAI S1000/3000 format samples and there was much more excellent stuff out there you might look for in vain in today´s gigabyte sample library djungle.

That said,- I like to own and use ALL and for what it does best,- the original hardware as long as it lives, the STS and Kontakt too.

But Kontakt will never sound like the original hardware or STS,- and I dislike I have to upgrade computers and OS all the time for Kontakt or other apps,- so it might be the 1st item I give up SOON.
I really hate that native software business, you know,- and I´m sure I´m not alone.
In fact I think about buying a hardware recorder in addition to SCOPE and leave the native DAW route almost completely.
I come from times we recorded to tape w/ all it´s limited editing capabilities.
I practise my parts when I´m unable to do it in a one-take, then record.
Not much editing needed ...

Well, that´s why I appreciate the release of SCOPE v7 so much, even it´s "only" the beginning and there are bugfixes waiting.
I´m pretty sure it will move on faster now.
I hoped for SCOPE 6 and when it was abandoned, I still hoped for v7 but thought it will never come anymore.

Big "hats off" for the S|C enthusiastic team,- they did it !
And now, I believe we´ll see most stuff included in SCOPE also working in 64Bit next future too,- w/ "all" the advantage 64Bit offers for a sampler,- which is nothing more than adressing more memory and eventually stream from disc.

:)

Bud
CFD,- the studio standard :wink:

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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by dante » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:17 pm

Well, since I loaded up my Heavy Hitters (drums) AKAI CD to hard drive, the .txt files are loadable direct into Reason's NN-XT sampler. I cant tell the difference playing from STS to NN-XT.

Mind you, the NN-XT output ends up going thru Scope anyways..... 8)

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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by Nestor » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:08 pm

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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by astroman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:50 pm

I never got into the Akai mode (still have an EMU ESI32) but share a lot of Bud's points.
On the other hand my way of thinking is too (economically) rational.
It's a tremendous effort with only low expectations of cash flowing back.

I have similiar thoughts about my favourite never-happen-project: a VDAT controlled by an original Alesis BRC.
Of course the thing does work, but not reliably and it may loose sync at whatever moment it considers appropriate - from then on recording stops while the timer on the controller keeps rolling.
The BRC is a great device to operate a 'tape' - but debugging for just a couple of vintage wierdos ? No sense at all.

I just keep such stuff in it's known to work environment (cheap today) and transfer audio/diskdata to the main system.

cheers, Tom

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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by next to nothing » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:19 pm

dante wrote:Well, since I loaded up my Heavy Hitters (drums) AKAI CD to hard drive, the .txt files are loadable direct into Reason's NN-XT sampler. I cant tell the difference playing from STS to NN-XT.

Mind you, the NN-XT output ends up going thru Scope anyways..... 8)
Hi,

Since you seem to have both samplers up and running, could you do a simple little test for me? If you load the same same wav file in both samplers, do you note any difference in sound when playing them back at a lower pitch? Say you sampled at C-3, any difference at C-2, C-1 etc?

Just curious after seeing various sampler videos on youtube.
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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by dante » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:28 pm

There's no difference at all across the keyboard range for the Strings and Brass I tested from SEIDLACZEK Orchestra. But that wasn't from loading WAV files. In STS I loaded a program file that was imported from AKAI CD via Scope browser, and from NN-XT it was a preset loaded from the same AKAI CD 'reloaded' into a Reason Refill.

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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by faxinadu » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:26 pm

afaik it has to do with memory management in 64bit as opposed to 32bit. STS in 64bit loads everything and plays samples, it just crashes :/ seems at least here that the crash is always of a BSOD type and the culprit is the module timestretch.vxd .
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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by faxinadu » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:08 am

- been testing around more today, have you guys noticed if you load an sts program there are no crashes? :0 at least here, i have been trying to crash it this way all morning now and can't get it to crash this way. go to the main window and load a pre-prepared sts program and play around.

- as soon as i create a "new" program and go to the keygroups and load a new wave sample this way - BSOD with timestretch.vxd showing as culprit.


can anyone confirm both observations?
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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by dawman » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:05 pm

IIRC VXD Files are Win 98 holdovers and not necessary for XP, 7/8/10.

So would finding an equivalent of timestretch.VXD fix this?

I’d love having STS Working.
What a treat.

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Re: Theory why STS cant be made to work reliably on x64

Post by dante » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:16 pm

faxinadu wrote:- been testing around more today, have you guys noticed if you load an sts program there are no crashes? :0 at least here, i have been trying to crash it this way all morning now and can't get it to crash this way. go to the main window and load a pre-prepared sts program and play around.

- as soon as i create a "new" program and go to the keygroups and load a new wave sample this way - BSOD with timestretch.vxd showing as culprit.


can anyone confirm both observations?
Not exactly - I've had it both work and crash in the last week. Try loading up extra STS programs (incrementally) and see how many programs simultaneously loaded and how much polyphony you can get total before it crashes.

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